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Author Topic: App managed colour management problem with Photoshop under Mac 10.5.6  (Read 3067 times)
sloow
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« on: March 11, 2009, 06:32:30 PM »
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I'm using a mac with OS 10.5.6, Photoshop CS4, 2 NEC 2190 monitors and printing to an HP Z3100.

When I use "Let Printer manage colour" I get OK colour. I used to get great colour using Photoshop managed colour using CS3 with OS 10.4.11,

Now that I have a new computer and therefore new OS, it seems as though I'm getting a doubly managed colour output,  meaning the prints are all much more saturated and a bit darker and redder than on screen.

I can't find any clues for the solution to this in the printer dialogues, ie. app managed color on, printer managed color off, etc, but I would like to continue to use app managed colour because it seemed more accurate to me.

Has anyone here had similar experiences? What should I be trying next?

thank you,
Paul/sloow
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 06:32:56 PM by sloow » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 06:47:30 PM »
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Quote from: sloow
I'm using a mac with OS 10.5.6, Photoshop CS4, 2 NEC 2190 monitors and printing to an HP Z3100.

When I use "Let Printer manage colour" I get OK colour. I used to get great colour using Photoshop managed colour using CS3 with OS 10.4.11,

Now that I have a new computer and therefore new OS, it seems as though I'm getting a doubly managed colour output,  meaning the prints are all much more saturated and a bit darker and redder than on screen.

I can't find any clues for the solution to this in the printer dialogues, ie. app managed color on, printer managed color off, etc, but I would like to continue to use app managed colour because it seemed more accurate to me.

Has anyone here had similar experiences? What should I be trying next?

thank you,
Paul/sloow

I don't use any of that equipment so I can't have hardware-specific recommendations about where to look for the mismatches; but there are things generally applicable to all systems: once you got the new computer, did you re-calibrate and re-profile the displays? It may be an idea to try that if you haven't. You may also want to check whether the new O/S is picking up the correct monitor profile. Likewise, in CS4, if you haven't done so you may wish to check whether the correct printer/paper profile is being loaded in the print function. I make these suggetions with the thought in mind that perhaps somewhere along the chain your new hardware and software aren't loading the right profiles, or the new O/S and video card warrants new display profiles.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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sloow
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 12:23:12 AM »
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Thanks for your message.

I have gone through those steps it seems quite a few times, without much difference in results. Something is still not right. Before,  the difference between printer managed colour and app managed colour was small. Now it's just way off the map.


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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 11:20:09 AM »
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Quote from: sloow
I'm using a mac with OS 10.5.6, Photoshop CS4, 2 NEC 2190 monitors and printing to an HP Z3100.

When I use "Let Printer manage colour" I get OK colour. I used to get great colour using Photoshop managed colour using CS3 with OS 10.4.11,

Now that I have a new computer and therefore new OS, it seems as though I'm getting a doubly managed colour output,  meaning the prints are all much more saturated and a bit darker and redder than on screen.

I can't find any clues for the solution to this in the printer dialogues, ie. app managed color on, printer managed color off, etc, but I would like to continue to use app managed colour because it seemed more accurate to me.

Has anyone here had similar experiences? What should I be trying next?

There have been numerous reports of similar problems when printing to the latest Epson printers.
e.g.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....410&hl=7900

I have both an Epson ESP7900 and HP Z3200. While I have found a solution for the Epson I have yet to investigate whether my HP may suffer in the same way. Your post may now prompt me to run some tests on the HP.

Thanks for the post.

Ryan


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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
sloow
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 03:24:45 PM »
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Thanks for the replies,

I am finding this is also happening under CS3, so I'm thinking this isn't a Photoshop problem.

One less thing to think about.
cheers,
Paul
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 04:25:13 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
There have been numerous reports of similar problems when printing to the latest Epson printers.
e.g.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....410&hl=7900

That thread is about problems trying to send unmanaged data to the printer -neither Photoshop or the printer manages color. (Of course you know that ... you started the thread which helped identify the problem for some of us.)

For the OP, it seems that under OS X 10.5 and CS4 if you set the printer to manage color, and turn off color management in the printer driver, the OS is still doing something with the color.  This makes it very difficult to print targets for creating profiles.  However, I believe for most users when having Photoshop manage colors, the results are what we expect, and indeed the driver color options of colorsync or Epson color controls are actually disabled.

I have seen reports by some having this problem, but it seems most do not.  I don't recall anyone that has actually nailed down what is different about their system that might be causing the problem.  It most likely is related to the same bug, but some how it only shows up under certain conditions.

As far as fixing it, a couple of ideas.  First I would use the printer drivers installation program and deinstall the driver, then reboot and reinstall.  Could be a complete reinstall of system software ... and if you do this I recommend you use the custom settings and turn off all of the OS X printer driver installs, so the OS doesn't install drivers for your printer.  Then reinstall the latest drivers.  Also, some have had success using the colorsync utility to set the default profile for the printer to the profile they are printing with.  There is also a possibility the profile needs repaired.  I don't use a z3100, but it seems the printer stores profiles so when letting the printer manage colors does it use the profile stored in the printer?.  Could it be the profile on the computer somehow isn't the same profile?  (hey ... wild guess here.  As I said, I'm not quite sure how the z manages and uses profiles.  Plenty of z users around, maybe they can comment on this)

Just a couple of ideas.
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sloow
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 05:37:40 PM »
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I feel like I'm zeroing in slowly..
As you wrote, I was/am downloading the driver from HP.. was going to make sure that it is in fact the right driver for Leopard etc.
I also am going to mess with the profiles in the Colorsync Application.

It's possible my error was to let Leopard synch my old laptop, which was running 10.4 onto the new Mac Pro. the laptop was working pretty well colour wise, but not speed wise, and of course it synched all applications, colour profiles etc.

Consequently on searching around, I'm finding duplicate copies of colorsync profiles in different places on the computer. Some in the user/application support/colorsync/profiles, and some in the /Library/Printer/Profiles/ folder...and as far as I can determine, they should all be in the Library/colorsync folder. Just one copy, I imagine. They're probably all different calibrations of the same papers as well.

This may be part of the problem. Going to do a bit of a clean out.

thanks again for your messages.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 05:38:55 PM by sloow » Logged
neil snape
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 02:04:37 AM »
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I haven't noticed any change in density from 10.4.11 and 10.5.6 to which I also recently upgraded. I haven't actually printed out any targets though for reading manually. All have been APS or HP Print Center profiles which are system agnostic. Do the profiles print darker than before?

Not that I've seen, but if they are it is not a large difference.


One thing not to do is let Apple upload the or rather Auto update the HP drivers. I unchecked all printers when installing, then just used the Z DVD to load the drivers. The Auto updater from Apple overwrites a bunch of files which is not recommended for reasons of doubt installed on your system.
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sloow
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 08:37:25 AM »
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I do remember the hp drivers being auto updated not so long ago. Reasons of doubt.. indeed. That's also a good name for a band!

One thing not to do is let Apple upload the or rather Auto update the HP drivers. I unchecked all printers when installing, then just used the Z DVD to load the drivers. The Auto updater from Apple overwrites a bunch of files which is not recommended for reasons of doubt installed on your system.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 08:38:03 AM by sloow » Logged
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 12:44:59 PM »
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Quote from: neil snape
I haven't noticed any change in density from 10.4.11 and 10.5.6 to which I also recently upgraded. I haven't actually printed out any targets though for reading manually. All have been APS or HP Print Center profiles which are system agnostic. Do the profiles print darker than before?

Not that I've seen, but if they are it is not a large difference.

It seems when trying to print unmanaged targets with 10.5.6 and CS4, ColorSync is somehow interfering .  The thread mentioned is worth reading ... I myself was skeptical for quite a while, until I tried using various papers such as matt.  It seems that the default profile for the printer is somehow involved.  The targets actually looked somewhat OK - not an overall obvious difference, but when compared to targets printed via CS3 and 10.4 or printed from Windows there were obvious differences in some patches.  The resulting profiles looked pretty bad when graphed ... lots of peaks and valleys.

Personally I just set up a 10.4 boot partition for the Mac I used to print the targets, and use CS3 to print them. I didn't take the time to try to find a reliable 10.5.6/CS4 work around.  I believe Ryan also just set up a different system to print targets.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 02:59:44 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
I believe Ryan also just set up a different system to print targets.

Yes indeed -  Mac CS1 !

Ryan
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 03:56:32 PM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
It seems when trying to print unmanaged targets with 10.5.6 and CS4, ColorSync is somehow interfering .  The thread mentioned is worth reading ... I myself was skeptical for quite a while, until I tried using various papers such as matt.  It seems that the default profile for the printer is somehow involved.  The targets actually looked somewhat OK - not an overall obvious difference, but when compared to targets printed via CS3 and 10.4 or printed from Windows there were obvious differences in some patches.  The resulting profiles looked pretty bad when graphed ... lots of peaks and valleys.

Personally I just set up a 10.4 boot partition for the Mac I used to print the targets, and use CS3 to print them. I didn't take the time to try to find a reliable 10.5.6/CS4 work around.  I believe Ryan also just set up a different system to print targets.

Does this tell you something about "progress" and when/whether so-called "up-grades" are ready for prime-time? One begins to think that the sub-prime mortgage mentality of issuing product lacking in substance is finding its home in the software cycle too.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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sloow
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 08:20:00 PM »
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I used the HP deinstaller and then reinstalled the latest driver from the website. I thought I had the latest driver, but it's possible the hp driver update from Apple interfered. I also went through the computer and pitched whatever hp profiles not in the main library>colorsync  folder I could find.

I am happy to report that things have returned to near normal! I think I'll reprofile my papers, see if I can get things a bit closer, but this is as good as it ever was. Thank you all for your helpful comments.


Paul
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 03:25:25 AM »
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Quote from: MarkDS
Does this tell you something about "progress" and when/whether so-called "up-grades" are ready for prime-time? One begins to think that the sub-prime mortgage mentality of issuing product lacking in substance is finding its home in the software cycle too.

As is often the case, it appears a change in OS caused quite a few problems, and quite possibly not all the bugs are out.  In Apple's defense it seems they are trying to actually improve Color Management in the OS  ... for example ColorSync now actually serves a useful purpose from programs like iPhoto ... you can actually set the profile in the Epson printer driver, instead of having to set a "default" profile with the ColorSync utility.

Of course the problem is everyone else has to play by their rules and sometimes that makes it tough, especially for companies that have to maintain device drivers.



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