Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Michael's review of the P65+ is online  (Read 21293 times)
BJNY
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1112


« on: March 12, 2009, 09:37:42 AM »
ReplyReply

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...lus-field.shtml
Logged

Guillermo
Kenneth Sky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 421


WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 10:12:40 AM »
ReplyReply

It would seem from Michael's comments, that to truly see the improvements of this back over the P45+ one would have to treat it as though it were an 8x10 camera. Although it is hand holdable, the resolution is so fine that vibrations from the users heart beat or for that matter the mirror slap will be reflected in the image. As MR has noted a 6 second delay in MLU is neccessary. Obviously the technology is so good we now have returned to where we started.
Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 10:17:06 AM »
ReplyReply

"Many of the grand names of the medium format camera industry have gone by the wayside during recent years, including Bronica, Contax, and most recently Rolleiflex / Hy6."

I wonder why Michael wrote that. He should know better. Production at F&H is still in full swing.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
pegelli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 591



WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 10:19:49 AM »
ReplyReply

I also liked the piece in there called "beyond resolution". I always thought I was crazy seeing more details from FF or MF sensors vs. APS-C even in some web images downsized to 800 or 900 pixels on the long end (0.5 MP  )

It seems there is more to sharpness and detail impression than resolution alone, local contrast and actuance play a role as well and apparently more of those are saved in a downsized picture than one might think.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 12:50:11 PM by pegelli » Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
lisa_r
Guest
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 10:49:33 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: pegelli
I also liked the piece in there called "beyond resolution". I always thought I was crazy seeing more details from FF or MF sensors vs. APS-C even in web images downsized to 800 or 900 pixels on the long end (0.5 MP  )

It seems there is more to sharpness and detail impression than resolution alone, local contrast and actuance play a role as well and apparently more of those are saved in a downsized picture than one might think.

Micheal, just curious as to how this fits in with your report that respected pros could not reliably tell the difference between prints from the Canon G9 vs. the 40 mp Hassy prints...

(this P65 looks killer, by the way. Anyone know what the upgrade prices from a p30 are?)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:54:12 AM by lisa_r » Logged
jjlphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 467


« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 10:57:57 AM »
ReplyReply

'Full frame'? P65 sensor area is stated at 40.4mm x 55.9mm. The nomimal 645 film gate size is 44mm x 56mm. Seems a little less than full frame.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:58:22 AM by jjlphoto » Logged

Thanks, John Luke

Member-ASMP
paulmoorestudio
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 240


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 11:06:23 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BJNY

thanks for posting the review of this long awaited back.
Having only used the p45+ back and seeing the detail and resolution it offered I can only imagine what the p65+ produces..I am sorry to say looking at the images provided in the review really did nothing to back up this assumption and just lead to frustration as I wanted to see the silky smooth 8x10 quality..given the known limitations of the web, I was still hoping for something more than what was shown..I am not being at all critical of michael's landscape work, just the medium in which it is presented..really it looks no better on my screen than some 4/3 shots I have just been looking at..and I know that is not the case!
There has to be a better way to convey the quality of this back in the web environment we now exist in.  But for now they just have to be individually tested as michael has done.
Despite my intellectual knowing that 22-39mp is really suffice, as a former 810 shooter, I am naturally drawn to the p65+ and will be very interested in the new camera/platforms phase is developing.
Logged

jjlphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 467


« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 11:13:35 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: John Schweikert
OMG!

Actually the Mamiya film gate area is exactly 41.5x56 provided in the Mamiya AFDII/III manuals. That should be closer for you. A half mm less per side on the short dimension for the sensor.
Thanks for the clarification on that John.


Quote
If I were you I would go after everyone who truncates pi to 3.14. That's the real travesty.
 

Logged

Thanks, John Luke

Member-ASMP
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2765


WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 11:22:52 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
thanks for posting the review of this long awaited back.
Having only used the p45+ back and seeing the detail and resolution it offered I can only imagine what the p65+ produces..I am sorry to say looking at the images provided in the review really did nothing to back up this assumption and just lead to frustration as I wanted to see the silky smooth 8x10 quality..given the known limitations of the web, I was still hoping for something more than what was shown..I am not being at all critical of michael's landscape work, just the medium in which it is presented..really it looks no better on my screen than some 4/3 shots I have just been looking at..and I know that is not the case!
There has to be a better way to convey the quality of this back in the web environment we now exist in.  But for now they just have to be individually tested as michael has done.
Despite my intellectual knowing that 22-39mp is really suffice, as a former 810 shooter, I am naturally drawn to the p65+ and will be very interested in the new camera/platforms phase is developing.

1. Download the P65+ 100% JPG we have on the front page of our website (captureintegration.com)
2. Make a big print
3. Remember to keep breathing :-P

Or better yet, don't take our word for it, schedule a demo and you can shoot the 65+ on the platform of your choice and do all your own processing (with some pointers from our accumulated experience).

__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:24:49 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1129


WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 11:24:19 AM »
ReplyReply

i also think its not fair to tell in public that Rolleiflex/ Hy6 is dead. franke + heideke is insolvent, we discussed enough about this and the possible consequences.
why name the Hy6 and the Afi not? why fix a rumor in so prominent space?

this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:25:05 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
jjlphoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 467


« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 11:30:36 AM »
ReplyReply

The Mamiya body and lenses is based on a 645 format. The Rollie Hy6 and lenses is based on a square medium format. Should there ever be a square 56mm x 56mm sensor, your choices will be either vintage Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ, or Rollie. There have been rumors of a Nikon square format camera, perhaps they are entering the 56mm x 56mm market? I wouldn't count the Hy6 out just yet.

What's next? A full 6x7 sensor? Man I miss that RZ ground glass and the way those lenses manually focused. Almost ethereal.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:34:22 AM by jjlphoto » Logged

Thanks, John Luke

Member-ASMP
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2765


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 11:38:37 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: jjlphoto
The Mamiya body and lenses is based on a 645 format. The Rollie Hy6 and lenses is based on a square medium format. Should there ever be a square 56mm x 56mm sensor, your choices will be either vintage Hasselblad cameras or Rollie. There have been rumors of a Nikon square format camera, perhaps they are entering the 56mm x 56mm market? I wouldn't count the Hy6 out just yet.

The Mamiya RZ is still very much a living system. In fact you can take a Phase One back off of a Mamiya/Phase 645 and put it right on an RZ Pro IID. Granted it is 6x7 rather than 6x6 but cropping 0.5 cm from the left and right to accommodate a square sensor would be simple.

Edit: Ha, you edited your post to reflect the RZ option after I was already mid-post.
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:39:22 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5124


« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2009, 11:55:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: jjlphoto
'Full frame'? P65 sensor area is stated at 40.4mm x 55.9mm. The nomimal 645 film gate size is 44mm x 56mm. Seems a little less than full frame.
If we are splitting hairs, 645 film format is 41.5x56mm, as in the H2F specs at http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h2f.aspx
So the P65 "crop" is 1.1mm vertically, 0.1mm horizontally. Slide mounts consume as much or more of the image as this, so to declare this to be not 100.000% full frame would indeed be splitting hairs.

P. S. Never mind, I missed the other reply.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:56:55 AM by BJL » Logged
Mort54
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2009, 12:26:06 PM »
ReplyReply

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here:

First, regarding being able to tell the difference between a high MP back and a lower MP cam, even in small web prints. Sorry, but I just don't buy it. It doesn't jive with my own experience, and as Lisa_r points out, we've also heard comments from Michael that experts couldn't tell the difference between Canon G10 images and P45+ images at a certain print size. If both files are properly processed, you won't be able to tell the difference in smaller prints, assuming you use good glass and good technique with both. I think what we're really seeing here is psychology. People see what they expect to see or want to see. And when you pay $40K+ for something, you expect and want to see a lot.

Second, I find it tremendously disappointing that at this stage of the game, Phase is still just jacking up MP without really fixing some of the underlying problems with their design. OK, maybe they've improved noise somewhat (tho I'm still withholding judgement on that, since I think that's also a candidate for psychology at work). But they still have that appalling LCD screen. They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF. Having to use a laptop for that on landscape shoots just isn't practical. The back still sucks power from the batteries. Only 100 to 200 shots to a 2500 millliamp hour battery is just terrible. For $40K+, these shortcomings shouldn't be present.

I understand Michael's enthusiasm, but such unbridaled enthusiasm is common among people who've just bought a hugely expensive product and expect the best from it. This is human nature. Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump, I'm underwhelmed.

P.S. Of course, this is just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions :-)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 12:33:20 PM by Mort54 » Logged

I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2765


WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2009, 12:33:37 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Mort54
Second, I find it tremendously disappointing that at this stage of the game, Phase is still just jacking up MP without really fixing some of the underlying problems with their design. OK, maybe they've improved noise somewhat (tho I'm still withholding judgement on that, since I think that's also a candidate for psychology at work). But they still have that appalling LCD screen. They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF. Having to use a laptop for that on landscape shoots just isn't practical. The back still sucks power from the batteries. Only 100 to 200 shots to a 2500 millliamp hour battery is just terrible. For $40K+, these shortcomings shouldn't be present.

We'd all love the best of every single attribute from both dSLRs and digital backs in one package, but...
 - nobody has an on-camera Live View digital back and it doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future
 - you want a bigger screen and longer battery life which are opposites



__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1097


WWW
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2009, 12:36:36 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Mort54
I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here:

 Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump, I'm underwhelmed.


Mort:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.

The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market).

There is substantial interest in the P65+ from a sensor size and resolution standpoint, and no, we are not backordered because we're selling them by the thousands, but we are getting a very good quantity of orders, especially considering the economic picture we're in and the price.

Full stop. In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.

I thought photographers desired flexible tools for variable situations?

Now, I don't want to get too close to the Koolaid, and I have yet to see these high ISO images, yet to perform speed tests at 15MP, but on paper, I see it as a hell of a product with a high price tag, but one that is extremely versatile and should last any photographer years beyond what they have been accustomed to in terms of usefull life.

Yes, I agree our LCD is long overdue for an overhaul.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Leonardo Barreto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 379



WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2009, 12:41:04 PM »
ReplyReply

Yes, I am waiting for     H1/A75 Guy to insult him for killing the Hy6/AFi ... and because he sold his Hasselblad ... how he dares ...      

Quote from: rainer_v
i also think its not fair to tell in public that Rolleiflex/ Hy6 is dead. franke + heideke is insolvent, we discussed enough about this and the possible consequences.
why name the Hy6 and the Afi not? why fix a rumor in so prominent space?

this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.
Logged

The important thing is not to stop questioning---Albert Einstein.
My Webpage/LeonardoBarreto.com
Leonardo Barreto alamy
Mort54
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2009, 12:52:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: dougpetersonci
We'd all love the best of every single attribute from both dSLRs and digital backs in one package, but...
 - nobody has an on-camera Live View digital back and it doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future
 - you want a bigger screen and longer battery life which are opposites
Both Canon and Nikon have superb LCDs, excellent LV implementations, and amazing battery life. That $40K+ backs can't do the same, to me at least, is just not right.
Logged

I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own
eleanorbrown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 612


WWW
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2009, 12:54:30 PM »
ReplyReply

I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs.  I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible.  All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings.  Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen.  That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option.  Phase are you listening?....maybe in a firmware update sometime??  Oh, I've even heard something about Phase thinking about touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone?  The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears......I think that would be another mistake..... they've got a top notch product design and I hope they stick with it.....Thanks, Eleanor

Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1097


WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2009, 01:00:31 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Mort54
Both Canon and Nikon have superb LCDs, excellent LV implementations, and amazing battery life. That $40K+ backs can't do the same, to me at least, is just not right.


I understand, it seems like  - for the money - it should offer that. But it is the nature of the sensor technology that we utilize which does present limitations while also offering advantages that Canon/Nikon do not. If amazing LCD, battery life, and in-camera Live Video are that important to you, then this product may not be an option for you. And I don't say that to mean in any way those elements are not important, they certainly are. But we don't offer everything Canon/Nikon offers, nor do they offer everything that medium format offers.



Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad