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Author Topic: Michael's review of the P65+ is online  (Read 21559 times)
jecxz
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 10:37:10 AM by jecxz » Logged

BJL
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2009, 01:10:32 PM »
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Quote from: Mort54
Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump ...
How do you conclude that? Apart from the larger sensor size eliminating the often complained about "sensor crop", Dalsa has reported design improvements that reduce noise, improve dynamic range, and increase maximum usable ISO speed, and Michael's review supports those claims to some extent.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 01:12:58 PM by BJL » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2009, 01:26:34 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market). (...)
In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.
And the "upgradable chip", no? Or is this no longer a feature of "Sensor +"?

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs.
Read the valid reasons of those users who ask for it.
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All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings
The same to me with the Contax (split image screen mounted). The back mounted on a tech camera with medicore groundglass I sometimes wish to have more resolution to judge about focus. Especially at focus just in front of infinity. This applies to the non plus as to the plus back LCDs as well from my point of view.
Quote
Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen. That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option. Phase are you listening?
hey come on... this is peanuts.
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touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone?  The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears...
why do you care if you just look at the histogram :-)
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michael
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2009, 02:05:09 PM »
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I thought that I made it clear that the P65+ is about much more than higher resolution. Much much more. Better DR, smoother tonalities, better high ISO and so forth.

Either my writing skills are deteriorating or some folks reading skills need remediation.

Michael

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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2009, 02:06:25 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
1. Download the P65+ 100% JPG we have on the front page of our website (captureintegration.com)
2. Make a big print
3. Remember to keep breathing :-P

Or better yet, don't take our word for it, schedule a demo and you can shoot the 65+ on the platform of your choice and do all your own processing (with some pointers from our accumulated experience).

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Doug, I do not understand why Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar do not hire  first class landscape(fashion, product, etc.) photographers to go out and shoot a bunch of raw files with their backs and put them up on their servers(with the raw conversion software) for download so prospective customers can work with them and see for themselves the IQ advantages of these backs compared to what DSLRs can provide. If you guys do believe in your products, as I think you do, the manufacturers are doing a disservice to themselves by not making it easy for people to get at the best samples they can produce. I have seen Hasselblad's raw samples, and I know first hand that these are not the best examples of what their backs are capable of. Take a look at Victor Magazine for more proof of that.
BTW, Michael Reichman states in his review that he does his initial RAW processing in C1 and then sends the file as a TIFF to Lightroom for "further raw processing". Am I missing something?
Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 02:07:48 PM by hcubell » Logged

David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2009, 02:16:04 PM »
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Quote from: hcubell
Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?

The lens corrections that we use on the H3D are unique to us.  The Mamiya AFD can not transmit all the necessary data to the raw file (most importantly subject to lens distance) to enable completely automated corrections like we have in Phocus.

[attachment=12091:Picture_1.png]

David
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 02:16:30 PM by David Grover / Hasselblad » Logged

David Grover
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2009, 02:24:43 PM »
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Quote from: eleanorbrown
I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs.  I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible.  All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings.  Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen.  That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option.  Phase are you listening?....maybe in a firmware update sometime??  Oh, I've even heard something about Phase thinking about touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone?  The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears......I think that would be another mistake..... they've got a top notch product design and I hope they stick with it.....Thanks, Eleanor


I agree with much of this in Eleanor's post. NO touch screen please! The Phase One button layout works great for field work. And like Eleanor, I mostly use the LCD for histogram and clipped highlight warnings, though I do occasionally use it for focus confirmation and it would be nice for improvement for that. The screen not a priority for me, though it comes up very often for the fashion folks, and that's understandable.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2009, 02:30:04 PM »
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Quote from: hcubell
Doug, I do not understand why Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar do not hire  first class landscape(fashion, product, etc.) photographers to go out and shoot a bunch of raw files with their backs and put them up on their servers(with the raw conversion software) for download so prospective customers can work with them and see for themselves the IQ advantages of these backs compared to what DSLRs can provide. If you guys do believe in your products, as I think you do, the manufacturers are doing a disservice to themselves by not making it easy for people to get at the best samples they can produce.

If you're in talks with a dealer for a purchase or lease you will have no problem with receiving raw files for examination. Much of the resistance to broadly distributing raw files is that the demographic looking for raw files are generally just beginning their search for information about MFD and lack either the programs, the expertise, or the experience to properly develop a raw file to it's fullest potential. It's not rocket science, but if you take the average photographer who only has experience with dSLRs and give them a raw file they will likely not get nearly the potential out of the file that we can; the difference can be drastic.

Another reason is because the internet is a scary place and as most reasonable board members have noticed, is often a place where nits are picked with surprising gusto. Finally, who is going to share their raws? In beauty/fashion/portrait we all know that even the best photographers in the world use drastic amounts of retouching for skin, blemishes, and reshaping (almost without exception), so seeing their raw will take away much of their mystique. For landscape the amount of retouching and effects can often be surprising and for marketing purposes generally strongly denied (e.g. walk into a Peter Lik gallery and ask if the images are retouched; they will bite your head off with adamant denials). Posting 100% JPGs let alone raw files on the internet is anathema to nearly every landscape photographer I know.

Despite all of these obstacles we have a catalog of customer images as well as our own images (we are shooters too you know; see portfolio) which we are happy to share in controlled situations in which we can respect the rights and wishes of the photographer.

In fact we have several raw files, including one from the P65+ on our website Test Section.

Hopefully you appreciate the candor here since much of this is usually unsaid.

Quote from: hcubell
Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?

The type of corrections (sharpness, distortion, light fall-off, chromatic aberration) are similar to Hasselblad's corrections. In fact we provide corrections for Hasselblad H, Contax, and Mamiya lenses in Capture One. These corrections do not transfer to a DNG. Phase is committed to openness and offers DNG output as well as welcoming programs like Lightroom to open the files directly. However, I cannot state strongly enough just what a fabulous job Capture One 4 does with Phase One raw files. Especially among those who are quality-minded I have had few people take our online training who didn't then switch to processing most or all of their shots in C1.

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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2009, 02:38:04 PM »
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Just to add I shot this P65 plus on two occasions in the pre-production stages against the P25 and P45 Pluses. The 65 certainly was a step up in many ways. Frankly If I had the money I would get one. It was that good and if you need the horsepower it is certainly there. It has better DR and a great range of tones. Color in the pre production units was off but I am sure that is corrected with production units.
Nice review Michael
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2009, 02:42:53 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
The lens corrections that we use on the H3D are unique to us.  The Mamiya AFD can not transmit all the necessary data to the raw file (most importantly subject to lens distance) to enable completely automated corrections like we have in Phocus.

[attachment=12091:Picture_1.png]

David

Credit is due to Hasselblad on the level of data transmitted to the body from the lens. In theory these things have an impact on what math to apply to correct the lens issues. However, in practical use I have yet to see a difference between the corrections applied to HC lenses in Capture One (to a raw captured by a P1 back on a H body) and Phocus (to a raw captured by an H3D).

If in fact they were confident that they, and only they with their additionally transmitted information could properly undistorted, unvignette, and sharpen the corners of their HC28mm lens then it's hard to understand why they locked out other companies from using it.

Doug

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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2009, 03:04:20 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
If in fact they were confident that they, and only they with their additionally transmitted information could properly undistorted, unvignette, and sharpen the corners of their HC28mm

There is no corner sharpening on the HCD28.  It is sharp by default.

This is only necessary on the Mamiya 28mm lens.

I absolutely disagree that there is no difference between lens corrections and we have looked at this extremely carefully in the optical lab in Sweden.

David


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David Grover
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2009, 03:04:49 PM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.

Not just unfair, it seems like a case of libel.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:06:20 PM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2009, 03:08:52 PM »
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Quote from: michael
I thought that I made it clear that the P65+ is about much more than higher resolution. Much much more. Better DR, smoother tonalities, better high ISO and so forth.
You did. I guess I just have a different opinion (and like I said, we all know what they say about opinions). I'll grant that the better high ISO performance is another big step forward, but often times opinions on noise are in the eyes of the beholder, so I'd prefer to see some rigorous numerical measurements on noise to determine what the improvements really are (sorry, but I've just heard way too many claims of improved noise on every new camera and back that comes out, so I remain a little jaded on that issue). As for smoother tonality, better DR, etc, I already consider the P45+ super in all of those regards, so I can't imagine any improvements being more than slightly incremental in nature. As nice as all those improvements are, the shortcomings are what get my attention - the LCD, lack of real live view, and battery life. Obviously people weight feature sets differently, and what's important for me is less important to someone else. But that's why I said this was just my opinion.
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I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2009, 03:11:32 PM »
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Quote from: DFAllyn
NO touch screen please! The Phase One button layout works great for field work.
100% agreed.
BTW: does such a touch screen reacts when a fly lands on it or when you touch it with your nose? :-)
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yaya
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2009, 03:13:29 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
There is no corner sharpening on the HCD28.  It is sharp by default.

This is only necessary on the Mamiya 28mm lens.

I absolutely disagree that there is no difference between lens corrections and we have looked at this extremely carefully in the optical lab in Sweden.

David

David I have a question about the new 35-90 lens; Does it work with H1/ H2 bodies with/ without a Hasselblad back? I'm asking because it doesn't say yes/ no in your literature, unlike with the HC28, and we have a few customers asking about the zoom.

thanks

Yair
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2009, 03:22:49 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
David I have a question about the new 35-90 lens; Does it work with H1/ H2 bodies with/ without a Hasselblad back? I'm asking because it doesn't say yes/ no in your literature, unlike with the HC28, and we have a few customers asking about the zoom.

thanks

Yair

Hi Yair,

As it is designated a D lens then it is only working with H2D/H3D or a CF generation back on an H2F body.

David


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tho_mas
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2009, 03:27:55 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
Operationally, the Leaf touch screen works great. Not sure why so much poo poo-ing on that.
it was a real question - never used these screens. The LCD of my back is mostly filthy and I wonder if I could get used to a touch screen. Probably yes, if I had to.
Nevertheless I don't like the iPhone.... the blackberrys, palms, mouses, pens. I've thrown them all away.
I like dials, knobs, screws, glass, metal, wood...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:28:52 PM by tho_mas » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »
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I am a P45+ owner, and I have learned to evaluate Phase back ability on a case by case and back to back basis. I think we'll start believing the claims when the users confirm them. The 60 images/minute seems unattainable on Phasiya, if Michael is correct.

Edmund


Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Mort:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.

The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market).

There is substantial interest in the P65+ from a sensor size and resolution standpoint, and no, we are not backordered because we're selling them by the thousands, but we are getting a very good quantity of orders, especially considering the economic picture we're in and the price.

Full stop. In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.

I thought photographers desired flexible tools for variable situations?

Now, I don't want to get too close to the Koolaid, and I have yet to see these high ISO images, yet to perform speed tests at 15MP, but on paper, I see it as a hell of a product with a high price tag, but one that is extremely versatile and should last any photographer years beyond what they have been accustomed to in terms of usefull life.

Yes, I agree our LCD is long overdue for an overhaul.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 03:32:55 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
you're half way there to the iphone.
  okay!
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2009, 03:48:56 PM »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hasselblad back have a fan for coolness.  Believe the Phase back relies on low power and NO moving parts to keep the chip cool and extend battery life.  the Phase back is practically indestructible (unless it falls in salt water of something like that).  I agree, we can't have everything but I would sure hate to see Phase go to a fan even if that would mean having a better LCD.  As I said, correct me if I''m wrong but I prefer no moving part back.  Eleanor

When I hear, you can't have a better screen because of power consumption issues then why is Hassy's screen so much better, why has Sinar put such a better screen on their new Esprit65 series? Our clients don't want us to complain, "well we won't be able to do a shot like that". Why do photographers want to here DB manufacturers do the same, "we can't put a better screen on it because..."

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