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Author Topic: Camera manufacturers PLEASE: when RAW histograms and an ETTR mode?  (Read 44434 times)
michael
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« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2013, 09:23:31 AM »
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Sad to say, but in conversations with both executives and engineers from Japanese as well as European camera makers, we've been suggesting this for years. Years and years – well, at least 4-5 years.

The response is always, Humm, ya, that makes sense, but then nothing ever happens.

Why are they so pig headed? Hard to say. In reality, many of the executives simply don't have an in-depth enough grasp of the issue, and the engineers that do understand it take their marching orders from the executives who are unfamiliar with the need.

Another industry pundit and I spent an entire afternoon a couple of years ago with a senior product manager of a major camera maker who did get it, and who could have pushed it through on a new camera that is now on the market. But when asked why it didn't appear, the answer was a shrug that they had to prioritize their engineering, and that this didn't make the cut.

So, don't hold your breath.

Michael
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thierrylegros396
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« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2013, 10:05:46 AM »
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Sad to say, but in conversations with both executives and engineers from Japanese as well as European camera makers, we've been suggesting this for years. Years and years – well, at least 4-5 years.

The response is always, Humm, ya, that makes sense, but then nothing ever happens.

Why are they so pig headed? Hard to say. In reality, many of the executives simply don't have an in-depth enough grasp of the issue, and the engineers that do understand it take their marching orders from the executives who are unfamiliar with the need.

Another industry pundit and I spent an entire afternoon a couple of years ago with a senior product manager of a major camera maker who did get it, and who could have pushed it through on a new camera that is now on the market. But when asked why it didn't appear, the answer was a shrug that they had to prioritize their engineering, and that this didn't make the cut.

So, don't hold your breath.

Michael

But if one more "original" manufacturer (perhaps Sony or Fujifilm) put that feature to their best models, perhaps that the others will follow.

Canon will certainly be the last Grin Grin Grin

Note: I like a lot of Canon products, but certainly not the way they choose their engineering priority.

Have a Nice W-E.

Thierry
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Isaac
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« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2013, 10:47:19 AM »
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Why are they so pig headed? Hard to say.

Maybe not. Would this feature really be enough to sway someone's purchasing decision?

(If the choice was between otherwise identical cameras -- sure it would; but the choice is between cameras that already differ on other features.)
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Jack Hogan
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« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2013, 03:11:48 PM »
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Maybe not. Would this feature really be enough to sway someone's purchasing decision?
I don't know about someone.  But if my camera maker were to come out with something like this I might upgrade sooner rather than later.  Right now it looks like later :-)
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Isaac
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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2013, 03:32:32 PM »
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Find another 10,000 people willing to prepay for the same camera model :-)
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Jim Kasson
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« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2013, 04:16:09 PM »
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I don't know about someone.  But if my camera maker were to come out with something like this I might upgrade sooner rather than later.  Right now it looks like later :-)

What if the camera manufacturers sold firmware separately? They could ship the vanilla firmware with the camera. If you wanted some non-standard feature, you could pay for firmware with that feature. Maybe they could take a tip from Porsche, and charge you to take out features that clutter up the menu. I've got an NEX-7 with a ton of features that I'll never use that just get in the way.

Jim
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »
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Maybe not. Would this feature really be enough to sway someone's purchasing decision?
see what is with in camera DNG  Grin ... nobody cares (and DNG is wanted by much more people thant raw histogram)
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2013, 07:44:05 PM »
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you could pay for firmware with that feature.
so how much money you will spend for developers, QAs, tech writers, csr training, etc vs how much buyers will buy (@ what price ?)
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jwstl
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« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2013, 01:50:11 AM »
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see what is with in camera DNG  Grin ... nobody cares (and DNG is wanted by much more people thant raw histogram)

I would suspect a significant portion of Raw photographers aren't aware they aren't getting a Raw histogram. And if they were, it would be higher on their wish list as it is on mine. I can easily make DNGs in post processing so nothing is really lost as it is without a true histogram while shooting.
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sharperstill
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« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2013, 03:07:07 AM »
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Those who enjoy using the Magic Lantern firmware have had RAW histograms (and auto-ettr mode) available for the last month or two. And they work very well indeed. They're available on the 5d3 and some other Canon SLRs.

Mr Ferret, are you using the Alpha 2 version of Magic Lantern for the 5D III?
I wouldn't mind a walk through of setting up the RAW histogram and its use etc. installation of ML seems straightforward enough.

Jon
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NikoJorj
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« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2013, 07:26:08 AM »
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That is a great point that I've never head anyone say. Why are we using the term ETTR when what we are really discussing is Normal exposure for Raw?
Because the ETTR term coined by Michael and Thomas Knoll emphasizes the fact than instead of metering the gray value to set it on the middle of the film curve, one should meter the highlights to set them on the right of the digital tonal curve.
But yes, it is only the right exposure for raw, period.


Sad to say, but in conversations with both executives and engineers from Japanese as well as European camera makers, we've been suggesting this for years. Years and years – well, at least 4-5 years.
We owe you many thanks for trying this, Michael!


so how much money you will spend for developers, QAs, tech writers, csr training, etc vs how much buyers will buy (@ what price ?)
Well, the case for DNG is more of a mixed one because it actually implies adding some code (even if it's much more trivial than, say, face recognition implemented in 100$ P&S).
Here, it's more a case of putting code to the side, and counting the beans before they are baked (that seems easier indeed, doesn't it?).
And yes, a raw histogram would be a significant incentive for me - and an ETTR mode a big one. 9999 to go.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 07:28:04 AM by NikoJorj » Logged

Nicolas from Grenoble
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« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2013, 08:51:29 AM »
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Mr Ferret, are you using the Alpha 2 version of Magic Lantern for the 5D III?
I wouldn't mind a walk through of setting up the RAW histogram and its use etc. installation of ML seems straightforward enough.

Jon

I would think that installing 3rd party firmware in one's camera would likely void the warranty on the camera and/or the lens. We already have reports of the computer chip in the new Zeiss 135/mm f/2 APO being fried in some D800s. Is this the result of faulty code in the Zeiss chip or in the camera firmware? Since there are no reports of Nikon lenses having this problem, the fault probably lies in the Zeiss code, but Zeiss could claim to the contrary. It is conceivable that faulty firmware could actually damage the camera.

Bill
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Jim Kasson
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« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2013, 10:53:29 AM »
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I would think that installing ... It is conceivable that faulty firmware could actually damage the camera.

Bill,

It is indeed conceivable, but, as a former system designer who started out as a hardware designer, I'd never design the hardware that way, either the lens or the body. Even if you trust the software engineers -- and a lot of hardware designers don't -- you have to deal with situations like debugging. In addition, a good hardware designer designs against cascading failures, like a cpu failure causing a motor failure. Those safeguards also mitigate the effects of hardware failures.

We already have reports of the computer chip in the new Zeiss 135/mm f/2 APO being fried in some D800s. Is this the result of faulty code in the Zeiss chip or in the camera firmware? Since there are no reports of Nikon lenses having this problem, the fault probably lies in the Zeiss code, but Zeiss could claim to the contrary.

I don't think it's clear that the fault lies with anyone's code. We don't have enough information to know it's not all hardware.

My 135 APO is so far working fine. I'm hoping it stays that way.

Jim
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2013, 11:19:56 AM »
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Hi,

My experience is that Sony's histograms and especially blinking highlights are quite accurate.

Best regards
Erik

Sad to say, but in conversations with both executives and engineers from Japanese as well as European camera makers, we've been suggesting this for years. Years and years – well, at least 4-5 years.

The response is always, Humm, ya, that makes sense, but then nothing ever happens.

Why are they so pig headed? Hard to say. In reality, many of the executives simply don't have an in-depth enough grasp of the issue, and the engineers that do understand it take their marching orders from the executives who are unfamiliar with the need.

Another industry pundit and I spent an entire afternoon a couple of years ago with a senior product manager of a major camera maker who did get it, and who could have pushed it through on a new camera that is now on the market. But when asked why it didn't appear, the answer was a shrug that they had to prioritize their engineering, and that this didn't make the cut.

So, don't hold your breath.

Michael
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Jack Hogan
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« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2013, 04:41:01 PM »
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But yes, it is only the right exposure for raw, period.

What other kind is there?  Smiley
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EduPerez
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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2013, 02:25:09 AM »
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I would think that installing 3rd party firmware in one's camera would likely void the warranty on the camera and/or the lens. We already have reports of the computer chip in the new Zeiss 135/mm f/2 APO being fried in some D800s. Is this the result of faulty code in the Zeiss chip or in the camera firmware? Since there are no reports of Nikon lenses having this problem, the fault probably lies in the Zeiss code, but Zeiss could claim to the contrary. It is conceivable that faulty firmware could actually damage the camera.

Bill

Well, ML does not technically install any firmware in the camera: ML gets loaded from the card when the camera boots, and works with the original firmware; but I agree that it could anyhow break the camera or the lens. However, from my personal experience (I am the current maintainer of a similar project), Canon cameras and lenses seems to be quite tolerant to "firmware abuse".
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mac_paolo
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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2013, 11:39:40 PM »
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Hi,

My experience is that Sony's histograms and especially blinking highlights are quite accurate.

Best regards
Erik
My DSC-RX100 is far from being accurate in that regard. I pretty much always overexpose by 0.7 Ev, getting a blinky preview and still having a somewhat underexposed image when getting over to Lightroom.
My father has an A55V but honestly I don't recall how does it work when reporting burnt highlights. Definitely mine is not accurate at all.
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Guillermo Luijk
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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2013, 05:05:05 AM »
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Sad to say, but in conversations with both executives and engineers from Japanese as well as European camera makers, we've been suggesting this for years. Years and years – well, at least 4-5 years.

That was right the time when this thread was created. You could even have illustrated them with the real RAW histograms presented at your forum! Smiley
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2013, 09:52:19 AM »
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Hi,

Lightroom does some dirty tricks to images. Have you tried to open the images that show the true image like RawDigerr?

Best regards
Erik

My DSC-RX100 is far from being accurate in that regard. I pretty much always overexpose by 0.7 Ev, getting a blinky preview and still having a somewhat underexposed image when getting over to Lightroom.
My father has an A55V but honestly I don't recall how does it work when reporting burnt highlights. Definitely mine is not accurate at all.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 11:43:43 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

convexferret
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« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2013, 09:45:28 AM »
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Mr Ferret, are you using the Alpha 2 version of Magic Lantern for the 5D III?
I wouldn't mind a walk through of setting up the RAW histogram and its use etc. installation of ML seems straightforward enough.

Jon
    I've been using the latest nightly builds. Note, these aren't the official nightly builds as the 5D III and a few other cameras are not yet part of the official distribution but rather there's a thread in the ML forums that contains links to regular builds for the 5D IIi, 50D and some other cameras. I've found them 100% reliable and as mentioned elsewhere, you're not overwriting anything and so removing the battery will leave you back as you were.

    Setup after installation is pressing the trash button to bring up the ML menus, third menu along, SET to turn on the histogram and Q to enter the histogram sub-menu. Switch on the RAW histogram and you're good to go. The RAW histogram is displayed in live mode and when reviewing the image just taken. It will not appear if you go back to look at images later as it uses the data in the current buffer.

    Lastly there is one issue and that is that ML for the 5D III has does not yet support the latest Canon firmware released a couple of months ago. I don't find that a problem.
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