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Author Topic: Phase One Takes Controlling Interest of Mamiya  (Read 18743 times)
tho_mas
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« Reply #80 on: March 29, 2009, 04:38:48 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Who would have thought that (...) the tilt shift lenses would be rebadged from the Ukraine?
According to this info on their site http://www.hartblei.de/de/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm Hartblei claims an improved quality. The glass comes from Zeiss in Germany and they are talking about "new" lenses. Too, there are new prices (updated in December): http://www.hartblei.de/de/pricelist.htm
All with regard to the lenses for 35mm SLR cameras. Does this apply to the 645 T/S lens as well?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 04:39:33 PM by tho_mas » Logged
hcubell
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« Reply #81 on: March 29, 2009, 05:25:33 PM »
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Quote from: michael
I can't agree.

The whole industry is moving toward software based optical correction, so Phase doing so with some of their new lenses is to be expected. But, to my knowledge, they remain seriously committed to open systems. The two are not in conflict.

Stay tuned. More on this soon, and it won't be about the system being closed.

Michael

Why would Phase not remain committed to keeping the AFD "open"? We have today two dominant players in the MFD market, Phase and Hasselblad. How many prospective Phase back owners would want to mount that back on a Hasselblad? Think in terms of a large arena to hold them. Now, how many prospective Hasselblad back owners would buy that Hasselblad back to put on a Mamiya/Phase AFD? Do we need a large or small motel room to hold them? The bottom line is that it costs them next to nothing to be magnanimous, yet look at the mileage they get out of it.
BTW, Phase's committment to open systems is phony. It only extends to the hardware side of the market. Ever notice that Phase's Capture One software, which they like to tout as the best in the industry, works with raw files from many DSLRs but only ONE brand of medium format digital back? Gee, I wonder how that happened.
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sdai
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« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2009, 06:29:48 PM »
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An open system won't bring too much benefit to the photographers who choose alternative solutions, this is especially true when software correction has become a trend in the industry, you'd expect Phase optimizing their sensor and firmware with Mamiya optics or Hassy optimizing for the Fujiblad lenses, are they obliged to support another company's products? will the other company fully cooperate? I don't think so.

35mm systems have been closed from the beginning, it has never become a problem.

According to some Japanese web sites, there are 2 major differences between the DF and AFD3, one is that the DF will only take digital backs, the other is improved AF performance with the DF. It is said there are other added features and functionalities but Mamiya is not giving out any detail.

IMO Phase made the best choice by picking Mamiya, I don't trust electronics from an European company when speaking in general.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 06:46:01 PM by sdai » Logged
michael
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« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2009, 08:54:35 PM »
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I wasn't casting any aspersions on Mamiya or Mamiya quality. But when it comes to cache, the brand name doesn't have it. It's kind of the Toyota of the MF industry.

Phase has a high end reputation, and so I think that what you'll see is an increasing transition to the use of the Phase One brand at the high end and the Mamiya brand below this. This is simply speculation on my part, but is similar to Toyota cultivating the Lexus brand name for their top products. Makes sense to me.

Michael

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AlanG
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« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2009, 09:49:43 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
Who does Phase market this camera to?

Well, imo, anyone who's mindset is stuck in 1994, because the AFDIII or IV may be an improvement on the AFD but not in the looks department, and regardless of what body works with what leaf shutter lens, as of today there are no leaf shutter lenses for sale for this camera, so it's not really an issue.  They're promised, they probably will come but right now the only leaf shutter lens anyone has seen is under glass in Japan and requires a babbelfish translation.  When they do hit the streets  there will also be asterisks involved.  1/800th of a second becomes 1/400th and dealers are changing their websites as we speak to reflect this.

And a lot more from yesterday....

I just read this post and I think it is one of the strongest posts I have seen on this subject.


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sdai
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« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2009, 10:14:27 PM »
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There's one "medium format" camera in 2009 boasting "latest technology" but only uses a 14-bit A/D, so what's wrong with a "look" from 1994?  

It is clearly written in the 80mm LS lens' spec sheet it can fully sync from 16 sec. to 1/500 sec.
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« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2009, 02:56:52 PM »
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Quote from: michael
I wasn't casting any aspersions on Mamiya or Mamiya quality. But when it comes to cache, the brand name doesn't have it. It's kind of the Toyota of the MF industry.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing  Toyota sells many more cars than Rolls Royce, and its stock has plunged "only" 40% since beginning of 2008, while Rolls has taken a deep-dive to 60%.
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« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2009, 03:14:40 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
And it doesn't help their case when used Mamiya gear is dirt cheap, yet great gear.

Well Mamiya doesn't want anyone buying the used gear, of course, because they don't make a penny out of it and that's their biggest problem. I would guess that Mamiya and the other camera makers are really feeling the recession right now. Especially Mamiya, if everyone has been picking up cheap used bodies and lenses and not many of the new offerings. I can't help feeling that this might be the reason for Phase One's cash injection but we may never know.
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« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2009, 03:57:48 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
Well Mamiya doesn't want anyone buying the used gear, of course, because they don't make a penny out of it and that's their biggest problem.

Of course they do: if two otherwise similar products have differing prices when sold used in 5 years time, the one with the higher used price is worth more. In other words, Mamiya will be able to ask for higher pricing because their products have a higher value when sold as used as opposed to some other brands.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2009, 04:12:58 PM »
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Quote from: feppe
Of course they do: if two otherwise similar products have differing prices when sold used in 5 years time, the one with the higher used price is worth more. In other words, Mamiya will be able to ask for higher pricing because their products have a higher value when sold as used as opposed to some other brands.

I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.
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« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2009, 04:19:36 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.

No, you did. Every used Mamiya sale now was already included in the selling price of the back when it was first sold years ago by Mamiya. If there was no secondary market for Mamiya backs (think Kindle books, iTunes music, or perishable goods), the price of the backs would be lower.

If "no-one" is buying new, Mamiya has already made the money off of those backs. Secondary market enables them to command higher prices in the primary market.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2009, 04:24:32 PM »
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Quote from: feppe
No, you did. Every used Mamiya sale now was already included in the selling price of the back when it was first sold years ago by Mamiya....

Sorry but there seems to be real miscommunication going on here... Never mind.
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« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2009, 05:01:32 PM »
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Car analogy: Hondas have the best resale value --this is not backed by research on my part, but I have that impression--. So that is positive for the brand, If you are deciding which way to go, you better consider two or three things: what do the big MF rental houses stock? What system has a ton of compatible good IQ lenses on eBay? and what MF company, or system will survive the current economic meltdown. What resale value is there in a GMC Suburban that you buy tomorrow if GMC decides to retire the Suburban model (Note: I am using the GMC Suburban as an example in this thread and don't literally mean to imply that the brand may or may not be coming to an end)

 


Quote from: foto-z
Sorry but there seems to be real miscommunication going on here... Never mind.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2009, 05:04:44 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.


Not necessarily the case. Most of the new Mamiya/Phase One camera purchases are bundled with a digital back (either with Leaf or Phase One). Indeed sales of Mamiya cameras are likely doing quite well - even with the slowdown - as some Phase One dealers camera platform sales have shifted from majority H2 to majority Mamiya/Phase One. And sales of the new lenses also are doing well. Someone who has a 2nd generation digital back on an AFD or AFDII is not likely purchasing these lenses, but new buyers who buy the bundles definitely are.

Purchases of stand-alone Mamiya cameras has certainly dropped to a low number.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2009, 05:22:49 PM »
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[blockquote][/indent]I had heard some time ago that Phase would have a "new" camera this summer.  I believed deep down that Phase would finally show signs of hope as most of their announcements in my mind had been dismal . It had  been some time that Phase and Mamiya had been working together so perhaps that would finally bear fruit.  It seems my hopes were too lofty.
     
[blockquote][/blockquote]In my mind Phase peaked around 2005 some 4 years ago. The P30 and 45 were new and the Hasselblad H system was open and good enough.  Software was solid and all was well.  In the years since their intro Phase has done the following:  1.)Rewritten the software (one of their main advantages) and made it arguably worse in many ways and most certainly MORE UNSTABLE.  It seemed they changed just to change and we were/are the beta testers!  Sure its faster and the file a bit cleaner, but for the trouble its been I would have preferred an evolution of 3.7 (anybody lose their Canon files in 4.5x?). 2.) Next, they rebranded the Mamiya body, and talked about lenses and accessories that only exist behind glass. Let us not even talk of Ukrainian tilt shift glass.  3.)Then they came out with 1 back  the P65+ that answers the question nobody asked: Can you make $40K MF back that is only 15mpx.  Oh, and if you bought the P65 right away it didn't even have this feature unless you shipped it back to them months latter.   Did I mention the out of touch price? How about the the loss of long exposure once a Phase selling point?  4.)Next they rebranded the Mamiya camera. Wait!  Didn't I just say that!  So the new camera isn't so new after all.
       
[blockquote][/blockquote]So, in review Since 2005 Phase has offered no real advantage.  The software is a debacle.  Lightroom has come in force and although the file isn't as good as Phase it is amazing in its capabilities. People Like Michael have found it more than good enough. Do you think LR3 may catch up to Phase in output?  Then Phase offers one new back with a price that is out of touch.  Is there no other chip in nearly 4 years that is better than a P30 or 45 that is reasonable in cost not to mention all the other improvements that could be?  There are many P30 and P45 user that want to upgrade but the 65 just isn't for them.  Now the worst 645 system (mamiya) has a new name and a grip you still cant buy. So, 4 years latter the best overall choice seems to be a P30+ or P45+ with a H2 (if you can find one).  Is that progress?
     
[blockquote][/blockquote] Phase, I own one of your backs. I have used them since the H20. I am a huge advocate of your product, but you guys are going the way of the drum scanner quick!  
     
[indent][/blockquote]
 Finally, I played with a p65 prototype last fall and I asked the rep if Phase had thought about video capability in the future to go head to head with RED and others.  He told me I should buy a 5d2. I sure hope Phase has more up its sleeve beyond this camera and the P65, and no more promises like "wireless" that never see the light of day.  The next Canon 1dsiV will destroy whats left unless something far more compelling in MFD pops up.  Word is the canon might get delayed because of the bad economy.  I guess that might be good news to Phase.  I for one want Phase to survive....
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