Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: 10 MP Foveon DSLR  (Read 4437 times)
Marshal
Guest
« on: November 29, 2002, 11:45:58 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael mentioned that just 2 years ago the pundits claimed the superiority of CCD and that CMOS could never compete.

The pundits have much more recently than that still been saying a full frame chip of any kind, particularly CMOS would be prohibitively expensive and impractical to even attempt to mass produce. That is until Canon dropped that 1Ds bombshell. And then Kodak came along with news of the 14n. And now another company with a 10MP FF chip. I have my suspicions too as to who they are, at least my hopes. :-)

I have a few words for the pretentious know it all pseudo-experts who continue to say that things can't be done:
Would you like any sauce with your crow? :laugh:

I've been enjoying the last several weeks since the Cologne show.[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2002, 05:30:53 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Has has already been pointed out by Mathew Cromer, the 10 megapixel Foveon is the old sensor. It's 10 megapixels instead of 3.3 because there's one pixel per primary colour. File sizes are still only 10 MB.[/font]
Logged
David Mantripp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 686


WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2002, 03:36:55 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']A guy on a bus yesterday slipped me a piece of paper that said Elvis had told him last night that if you watch the last episode of the X-Files backwards at 10fps you can clearly see (if you squint) Winston Churchill's stunt double carrying a Leica R10 with something like "Fo.eo. XYZ" printed on it in invisible ink.  I turned around to ask him how many photodetectors it had, but he had _vanished_ from a moving bus in the middle of a flooded city.  

So that I think settles it.[/font]
Logged

--
David Mantripp
http://www.snowhenge.net
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2002, 12:20:05 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']I believe a Foveon rep admitted that the 3.4 MP was actually closer in resolution to what one would get from a 7 MP Bayer type sensor instead of the 10.2 MP that many have speculated.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Absolutely! Closer to 7 MP or 6MP, is neither here nor there. Let's not quibble. Producing 'real' pixels within the camera has got to be better than interpolation.[/font]
Logged
Howard  Cubell
Guest
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2002, 07:24:17 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael: If your rumour of a full frame 10 mp Foveon chip DSLR is accurate, all I can say is wow, based  upon the initial reviews I have seen with sample images  of the  Sigma 3mp DSLR. I think it would blow away the Canon 1Ds and  the Kodak 14N.[/font]
Logged
MatthewCromer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 411


« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2002, 09:32:58 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']That's the same old sensor with a new name.[/font]
Logged
Doug_Dolde
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2002, 01:57:59 AM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Ah yes another "ditto head" response.  Maybe some day you will learn to say something without "Michael says" in front of it.[/font]
Logged
PeteS
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2002, 04:37:06 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Just to stir the pot!  If we consider who sat out Photokina and who also does not make their own chips that sort of sets the stage for Nikon; a logical candidate for the next block buster in our world.
Pete Smith[/font]
Logged
Guest
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2002, 09:22:30 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']It amazes me the confusion over this issue. I was referring to a "real" 10MP chip, (which in Foveon terms would, I suppose, be 30MP). But, I regard this way of calculating to be akin to what Fuji does with it's digital specs.

Michael[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2002, 10:10:57 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael,
Well, I'm amazed also. The reference above by Doug Dolde to the Foveon web site describes 'a' 10M sensor has having effective pixels of 2268x1512, which is similar to the D30.

Maybe Doug's to blame. Please show us the link to the real 10 megapixel/ 30MB sensor. As you've probably noted from my previous comments, I'm all in favour of cramming as many pixels as possible into as small a sensor as possible, provided it doesn't compromise quality too much.

OTOH, if this is a rumour, it's not going to be on the Foveon website yet, is it? There's the source of confusion.

Ray[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2002, 06:58:56 AM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Actually, I should correct myself. The Foveon sensor in the SD9 has 10 million photodetectors, not 10 megapixels. The SD9 is described as a 3.43 megapixel camera. A pixel, as I understand it, consists of a red, green and blue element. The fact that most digicams do a lot of interpolation to achieve this shouldn't alter the definition of a pixel.

Because of a greater number of photodetectors and no need for an anti-aliasing filter or colour filter, the SD9 seems to be on a par with a 6MP camera such as the D60, according to Phil Askey's review. I can only conclude that a full frame "10M" Foveon based camera would be outclassed by the 1Ds and 14n.[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2002, 05:55:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']It amazes me the confusion over this issue. I was referring to a "real" 10MP chip, (which in Foveon terms would, I suppose, be 30MP). But, I regard this way of calculating to be akin to what Fuji does with it's digital specs.

Michael[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']David,
Since Michael has already confirmed that he was referring to a 'real' 10MP Foveon chip, I don't see why he should be doubted and even ridiculed.

Whilst it's true that a 10MP Foveon chip will require 30M photodetectors, as opposed to the 10M photodetectors of a conventional 'Bayer' type 10MP chip, the Foveon chip has three layers of silicon. Therefore pixel density, or more correctly photodetector density, should not be as much of an issue.

On what basis do you find the notion of a 10MP Foveon chip so fanciful?

If a 3.43MP Foveon chip, as in the SD9, is roughly equivalent in image quality to a 6MP Bayer type chip, a 10MP Foveon chip should be equivalent to an 18MP conventional chip. Not necessarily a huge improvement over the 1DS and 14n, but I would think a worthwhile improvement.[/font]
Logged
David Mantripp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 686


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2002, 02:24:43 AM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Actually I'm poking fun at all the people who leapt into the debate without any evidence to show that they had actually read Michael's article, with speculation building on misinterpretation building on fancy. Within two pages not only had we invented a totally non-existent item, but we'd even started to dismiss it's worth.

I'm not even sure you read my post, but, if you do, you'll discover that I was simply reacting to the debate on who the mystery manufacturer was.

Clearly Foveon have an R&D lab. Clearly they have as yet unreleased technology. Clearly this will  aim to compete with market leaders.

Anyway, Michael clearly has a sense of humour. Pity he's in a minority.[/font]
Logged

--
David Mantripp
http://www.snowhenge.net
Marshal
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2002, 10:58:24 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']I believe a Foveon rep admitted that the 3.4 MP was actually closer in resolution to what one would get from a 7 MP Bayer type sensor instead of the 10.2 MP that many have speculated. At any rate, if an actual 10MP Full-Frame Foveon sensor was equal to anywhere in the 13-18 MP range, I'd take it. After reading extensive reviews and examining many sample pics of course, as always.

I've recently downloaded the new Nikon Capture 3.5 and Nikon View 5.14, which supposedly allow for an interpolated ressing up to 10 MP with the D1X. I haven't had the chance to give them a good test yet, but hope to soon. Of course it's not likely to be as good as a true 10MP noninterpolated rez, but if it helps any, I won't complain. I like the other enhancements of the new stuff already.[/font]
Logged
Doug_Dolde
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2002, 07:55:20 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Foven shows a new chip the X3 PRO 10M on their website.

It's a pitifully small sensor (20.7mm x 13.8mm) with a 25mm diagonal. Compared to 35mm film's 43mm diagonal that's a 1.75 factor.[/font]
Logged
Dave Gurtcheff
Guest
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2002, 10:44:06 AM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Having a Contax N1 with 3 Zeiss lenses and flash system, I sure hope the rumor is for a Contax with full frame 10 Mp Foveon chip! The price point and poor performance of the present N1 digital have given me thoughts of changing systems as I presently do not own any type of digital camera. (I shoot negative film, and scan it).
Happy holidays
Dave[/font]
Logged
Marshal
Guest
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2002, 01:04:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']Has has already been pointed out by Mathew Cromer, the 10 megapixel Foveon is the old sensor. It's 10 megapixels instead of 3.3 because there's one pixel per primary colour. File sizes are still only 10 MB.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']FWIW, Michael mentioned in his report that it will(ok, might) be a full-frame sensor, which the current "10M" or whatever Foveon has renamed it is not. Remember that little detail about the current sensor having the 1.7X multiplier?

Well there I go again, being a ditto head by mentioning Michael in my message. Sorry Doug. Well, actually I'm not. You'll just have to get over it.[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2002, 08:05:00 PM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']Furthermore, for those who are slightly serious and not just interested in a lark and a giggle, one of the reasons the Foveon pixels are of higher quality is that they do not require a low pass anti-aliasing filter. Kodak with their 14n have decided to skip the AA filter, presumably because (a) it lowers resolution, and ( the higher the pixel count, the less the need for an AA filter. So the 14n has two reasons for delivering higher resolution than the 1Ds.

An 18MP Bayer type chip would also not require an AA filter, so it's doubtful that a 10MP Foveon chip would be equal to an 18MP convential chip. Bearing in mind that the increase in resolution that an 18MP chip has over a 14MP chip is about 1.13, if Foveon wants to 'take on' the manufacturers of current full frame 35mm sensors, nothing less than a 10MP Foveon sensor will suffice.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.[/font]
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8853


« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2002, 07:31:37 AM »
ReplyReply

[font color=\'#000000\']David,
That's all right. I've got a sense of humour too. And as a matter of fact I hadn't read Michael's reference to this rumour before I waded in. It wasn't an article was it. Just a rumour from a reliable source.[/font]
Logged
Pages: [1]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad