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Author Topic: Hahnemuhle Sugar Cane 300gsm  (Read 14587 times)
jdoyle1713
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2009, 08:57:41 PM »
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Quote from: SarahNewman
Yes Ron, the Hahnemuhle Bamboo and the NEW! Hahnemuhle Sugar Cane are priced identically!


Hello gang

Well Sarah you are right and you are wrong.. Depending upon your dealer they may be able to offer discounts! As some dealers buy in large ( Shades Of Paper does ) volume while other dealers buy in smaller lots. I can also tell you that the Bamboo pricing is more steady since there is a history. There is no history with Sugar Cane.. So over the years I have learned that with new ones like this .. Be careful  Its a nice product and images well and all but its not the breakthough that Say Silver rag and the Baryta's where  


As far as what Sarah is refering to see means MAP price or street Minium pricing that can be advertised either in print, on the radio or on a website! That is why we at Shades like emails and calls we have the ability to work with people to make each job profitable on quality products. As far as Hahnemuhle's MAP Price its Identical to Bamboo..

Just my .02 worth!

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
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neil snape
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 12:34:35 AM »
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I guess I am always lucky....

I had this paper in various stages of it's dev, but as you can expect I can't say before it's time. Since you have now discovered it's happening, I can share some thoughts.


What is great about Bamboo is the same on Sugar. It is made from a renewable source, both Bamboo and Sugar Cane have a high percentage of fibres from the name of the product.
The stiffness of the paper is different, the resilience different too.

Sugar has a texture, quite a sharp one at that . In strong side lighting, it has apparent shadows in the tooth. IT is relatively stable in various lighting and shows very little grey balance failure, nor Illum. metamerism compared to photo papers.

It is correct on the black point, but don't forget that all textured papers include more incidence reflection hence you will always have a lighter measured point at 0/45º. The actual appearance is just as rich a black as smooth FA papers , such as Bamboo.

Measured black point with APS on the 3200 is Lab: 17.5883038, 0.9316109, 1.6764798 and white Lab: 94.8493069, 0.5968897, 2.1146865, gamut volume 470,066.

It is a curly paper though so sheet fed will take a bit more care. De-rolling is fine, and the curl in any case lives at the edge zones.

My in window tests are showing no fade in the many months unscientific tests to my eyes.

I highly recommend this paper for ecological reasons as much as it is a stunning paper as most are from Hahnemuhle.

I do have the Z3200 APS (Monaco) profile here if you need it.
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 05:52:28 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
I guess I am always lucky....

I had this paper in various stages of it's dev, but as you can expect I can't say before it's time. Since you have now discovered it's happening, I can share some thoughts.


What is great about Bamboo is the same on Sugar. It is made from a renewable source, both Bamboo and Sugar Cane have a high percentage of fibres from the name of the product.
The stiffness of the paper is different, the resilience different too.

Sugar has a texture, quite a sharp one at that . In strong side lighting, it has apparent shadows in the tooth. IT is relatively stable in various lighting and shows very little grey balance failure, nor Illum. metamerism compared to photo papers.

It is correct on the black point, but don't forget that all textured papers include more incidence reflection hence you will always have a lighter measured point at 0/45º. The actual appearance is just as rich a black as smooth FA papers , such as Bamboo.

Measured black point with APS on the 3200 is Lab: 17.5883038, 0.9316109, 1.6764798 and white Lab: 94.8493069, 0.5968897, 2.1146865, gamut volume 470,066.

It is a curly paper though so sheet fed will take a bit more care. De-rolling is fine, and the curl in any case lives at the edge zones.

My in window tests are showing no fade in the many months unscientific tests to my eyes.

I highly recommend this paper for ecological reasons as much as it is a stunning paper as most are from Hahnemuhle.

I do have the Z3200 APS (Monaco) profile here if you need it.

Hey Neil

Great Review Thanks.. However Here are a few thoughts..

No 60 or 64 inch rolls..
Paper's are like Ice cream to many flavors!

As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.

I know we are all a tough crowd to please..

Cheers

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neil snape
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 06:07:17 AM »
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Quote from: jdoyle1713
Hey Neil

Great Review Thanks.. However Here are a few thoughts..

No 60 or 64 inch rolls..
Paper's are like Ice cream to many flavors!

As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.

I know we are all a tough crowd to please..

Cheers



Maybe it wasn't listed but 60" will be available if there is demand.

Cotton is fine as a renewable source but the quality and quantity necessary for 100% rag are making it more and more difficult for the makers to keep up. Ernst Dinkla's good friend and colleague knows everything about paper making, and would probably be one of the best people to answer questions to the validity of using alternatives to cotton. Ernst of course knows a lot about papers too!
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009, 06:18:20 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
Maybe it wasn't listed but 60" will be available if there is demand.

Cotton is fine as a renewable source but the quality and quantity necessary for 100% rag are making it more and more difficult for the makers to keep up. Ernst Dinkla's good friend and colleague knows everything about paper making, and would probably be one of the best people to answer questions to the validity of using alternatives to cotton. Ernst of course knows a lot about papers too!


Demand.. HMMM How do you create demand if there isnt that size to start with?

Agreed Ernst does..

Neil like always a pleasure having a good convo with you

Cheers
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 09:02:26 AM »
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Quote from: jdoyle1713
Agreed Ernst does..


Cheers

I wasn't going to comment but labeling Cotton and Bamboo as Green is too provoking :-)
To make my judgment milder on the Sugar Cane they can pack a bottle of Bacardi with every 6 rolls. I'm not that green.

Seriously: the Sugar Cane has the benefit of doubt though. There is the discussion whether Sugar Cane planted for Biodiesel/Ethanol in Brazil isn't pushing agriculture for food production further into untouched forest area but I guess that the fiber mass of cane that is left now as a waste product of both sugar, rhum and fuel production is ample supply for HM's pulp input.  That cane waste went into the furnaces of the sugar plants in Indonesia 70 years ago and it would surprise me if it isn't still the normal route. When the cellulose content can be converted into fuel as well (bacteria systems) you will see HM in competition with your need for car fuel. I mean after the recession.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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SarahNewman
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 04:08:03 PM »
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Now available- all Sugar Cane paper sizes in sheets and rolls!

Sarah at Spectraflow
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 04:08:57 PM by SarahNewman » Logged

Happy Printing!

Sarah Newman
Spectraflow, Inc.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 07:03:52 PM »
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Quote from: jdoyle1713
As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.

I believe cotton is the crop that requires the highest pesticide usage to grow (150g of various pesticides for one T-shirt, or something like that), and also requires intensive irrigation. Bamboo, on the other hand, grows like grass (because it is) and has been called the world's most perfect renewable resource... you can clear cut a bamboo field and it will grow back in months.
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 07:55:53 PM »
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Quote from: JonasYip
I believe cotton is the crop that requires the highest pesticide usage to grow (150g of various pesticides for one T-shirt, or something like that), and also requires intensive irrigation. Bamboo, on the other hand, grows like grass (because it is) and has been called the world's most perfect renewable resource... you can clear cut a bamboo field and it will grow back in months.


well I guess the point is that they all are grown and a lot quicker than a tree..Does n't That make sense?

If I am wrong I certainly will listen. This is a rather wild topic when you speak about it with the manufactures as they all have a different spin or story to tell

Cheers
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2009, 04:05:04 AM »
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Quote from: jdoyle1713
well I guess the point is that they all are grown and a lot quicker than a tree..Does n't That make sense?

If I am wrong I certainly will listen. This is a rather wild topic when you speak about it with the manufactures as they all have a different spin or story to tell

Cheers

Jim,

Cotton has a bad name. If you weed out the articles on the web that are obviously been paid for by the cotton industry you will get a less than nice picture. Pesticides, water waste, soil loss. The fashion industry has recognised that and there are eco friendly cotton production efforts as a result.

There are no bamboo plantations for paper production. I have seen all kinds of plans (Japanese) for bamboo plantations but no pulp production bamboo forests exist. And what exists has been used for the building industry etc in S.E. Asia for ages and is an important source for local communities. With the Chinese demands for paper fiber all kinds of wild strategies have developed including local collection of wood, bamboo, agricultural waste, recycled paper from the west, whatever fiber sources there exist. China didn't have the fiber resources for the immense demand. (Given the recession it would be a good idea to start the development of forests for the long term) The results are that some very old bamboo forests were cut, not only in China but also in Indonesia and India. More endangered species including the local people. While it grows fast the real cellulose gain isn't better compared to production trees, for example eucalyptus varieties. There's also the once in several years blossoming of bamboo over wide areas that Pandas and potential paper plants have to cope with, a big gap in pulp production will happen. The processing of bamboo mass isn't better in ecological/energy sense than that of other fiber sources. I have written this maybe a year ago on the Digital B&W list with links to several articles on the subject. Bamboo is a wonderful material for building, furniture etc but nothing special for paper production. I don't think HMs production will have an impact on the ecology of bamboo growing continents but giving it the label ecological sound is something else. That HM sends a small percentage of the price to a Green initiative is something else but I have not seen information of a direct relation to bamboo production. Show me a scientific article that compares bamboo pulp production with other sources and that declares that it is the best source ......

Less exotic are the production forests in several parts of the world. Pine, eucalyptus, etc. Pulp production with modern environmentally controlled plants. Replant programs for at least a hundred years already. Any waste is used for other means. Many Scandinavian homes are heated with waste from the wood and pulp factories. It will be hard to get better control on energy and environment than what exists there now. After 30 years of improvements forced by the public and its representatives.

With ever growing demand for fuel alternatives, food, building materials and paper pulp, there is competition out there in the fields and forests. There are other fiber sources that can grow on areas that do not have agricultural importance for food production and we all could eat a steak less and eat corn instead. But that competition will stay and has to be regulated so we can eat corn and read a book in 2100. The last will be exotic behaviour anyway :-)

I'm optimistic, not that Green at all but hate to be considered a fool.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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neil snape
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 04:40:21 AM »
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Call me a fool then but steps in the right direction all help. Actions first, lead to a strategy rather than follow for others to take. Hahnemuhle's purchasing of materials or those of their subcontracted plants are a drop in the ocean compared to newsprint and other periodicals.

Newspaper plants have recovery furnaces for the smelter runs. They more often than not supply all the electricity for the plant and inject the rest into the grid. Dangerous if there is an explosion for the workers, air pollution always present, but truth is the sodium sulphate used to digest pulp ( a bit different in kraft mills) leaches out and combines with other things making phenols etc.


All I know is I'd rather they hack down bamboo plants or sugar recovery, than cut down healthy trees that take much more time to grow.
On our side we need to have less demanding blazingly white paper bases and we could further the tiniest step a push in the right direction.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 09:13:42 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
Call me a fool then but steps in the right direction all help. Actions first, lead to a strategy rather than follow for others to take. Hahnemuhle's purchasing of materials or those of their subcontracted plants are a drop in the ocean compared to newsprint and other periodicals.

Newspaper plants have recovery furnaces for the smelter runs. They more often than not supply all the electricity for the plant and inject the rest into the grid. Dangerous if there is an explosion for the workers, air pollution always present, but truth is the sodium sulphate used to digest pulp ( a bit different in kraft mills) leaches out and combines with other things making phenols etc.


All I know is I'd rather they hack down bamboo plants or sugar recovery, than cut down healthy trees that take much more time to grow.
On our side we need to have less demanding blazingly white paper bases and we could further the tiniest step a push in the right direction.

Neil,


No offence meant with my message.

There has been a thread on this subject here too:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....21265&st=20

As written I had no intention to repeat that, you both more or less invited me :-)

Reading more on Sugar Cane pulp I expect it will be a good, green alternative.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 11:54:17 AM »
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Hey All,

I put up a little mini review of the Sugar Cane on the website, the first of many I expect. It's somewhat hard to come up with objective means of comparing papers since so much of what makes a paper a hit is something very subjective. There is also the challenge of divorcing the paper's proprieties from that of the printer used to test it. I'm still working on a different metric for evaluating the general gamut that a paper can support, the current example is a bit of a place holder.
That said I've included information on the OBA content, whiteness, and texture that I think will be useful for comparing papers, especially as I add more papers to the list. Any feedback is welcome.

http://www.spectraflow.com/product-reviews.html
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 11:55:23 AM by Mussi_Spectraflow » Logged

Julian Mussi

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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 01:34:08 PM »
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Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow
I put up a little mini review of the Sugar Cane on the website, the first of many I expect.
Thanks, Julian.  That kind of information, with analytical and subjective information, is very helpful in evaluating a new paper to try.  The texture photo is also useful.  I'm sure that it doesn't seem that textured in normal viewing conditions, as you mention that the texture in the photo is enhanced, but I had concerns about how linear the texture would be, from other reviews.  From what I see in the photo, the linear quality looks to be quite subtle.  We could certainly use more reviews like this online.

Would you mind comparing the  dMax/*L values with the Bamboo, from your profiling software, if you have them?  Since I'm pretty familiar with the Bamboo, I'm curious how the two are differentiated, other than surface texture and paper source.  I can tell about paper whiteness and texture visually, but won't be able to compare the printed aspects from 8 1/2" x 11" paper samples until I build a profile.  Are the two papers pretty similar in terms of print quality?

Thanks,
Ron

PS:  You might want to fix a small typo.  Sheet and roll headings are reversed in your PDF.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2009, 03:19:17 PM »
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Hello,

I have not been a member and took me a little to get around to a reply after this thread was pointed out to me by Hahnemuehle. I've worked with many of you over the years since my days at Apple and being a part of the introduction of ColorSync. I've worked for the last four years selling the NexPress for Kodak so I've kept a low profile with my giclée business. I no longer work for Kodak and am focusing on my giclée business while I continue to consult for the photo publishing business (my real source of income). Just as an fyi we use the BetterLight 8K for capture and the Epson 11880 for output.

While Ernst does start to unveil some of the issues on sustainability, I've found there is so much more to uncover after many tens to hundreds of hours of research over the last two months.

I read the articles on sustainability in the January and March issues in Art Business News and then attended Art Expo in New York. After having a discussion at Art Expo about the article "Q&A Justin Doe" with Gino, Wyland's Art Director, I began a project to write a highly supportable article - "Sustainability in Fine Art Printing at Artful Color". I was not very impressed with the level of data or supported points made in the Q&A. I have a B.S. in Engineering and advanced studies in Color Science and have worked for Apple and Kodak in Engineering, Marketing, and Sales. My former VP at Apple, Lisa Wellman, is now the president of SustainCommWorld and a major authority in sustainability in print media. I decided to use five of the principles from SustainComWorld and build a technical paper focusing on the most important issues in sustainability supported by much research and data. My hope is to thoroughly point out what has and can truly impact sustainability in fine art printing.

The challenge is getting data from the manufacturers on compounds in inks and coatings. I've searched many patents but they don't always list exact compounds. MSDSs are helpful but don't reveal all information. There is also important industry data which is available but getting to all the needed details is not easy. I have made all the right contacts for Artful Color's production process (others may use different inks and papers) but much more data is still to arrive.

I do feel there are extreme positions often taken with little data. There is much talk about cotton being bad and bamboo good (all over the web). Specific to fine art papers they are often made with 100% cotton linters. Cotton linters is a waste product and does not influence the production of cotton. This paper can be considered 100% recycled. Bamboo is a fast growing renewable crop which doesn't take irrigation, fertilizer, and pesticides. For fine art reproduction Bamboo can not be compared to wood pulp because wood pulp is usually not used for fine art papers. Again cotton linters are a waste product. The issue with Bamboo is how it is grown as Ernst points out. Hahnemuhle covers this issue by sourcing its bamboo from legal harvest areas and locations not converted from natural forest. They also say these locations are FSC certified but I'm still asking for specifics around this claim.

I think it is important to not jump to conclusions too quickly without research when dealing with the topic of sustainability. I've heard the question asked if less archival inks could be more sustainable. That assumes the current inks are not sustainable. I'm yet to see data supporting that conclusion. It is also important to note how huge of an improvement print on demand has made. Inks with no VOCs on non-woodpulp paper printed as sold instead of editions of hundreds printed with no buyer. I know several artists who have rented dumpsters and thrown away thousands of lithos. Those days are mostly over.

The addition of papers like Sugar Cane and Bamboo just keep adding to the improvement. BTW - I do like the Sugar Cane paper. Bagasse is a waste product in abundance. Trust me, I grew up in south Louisiana. The bonus is that this is such a nice paper. I do think it may be more of a good intent over lets say Museo Max. This paper is made of 100% linters which as stated above is a waste product as well. More info on all of this once my research is complete and the paper is published.

Regards,

Damon

Artful Color, inc.
www.artfulcolor.com
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 01:48:38 AM by artfulcolor » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2009, 03:45:50 AM »
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Appreciate the perspective, Damon.  Nothing beats a fact or two.  I got my samples of the Sugar Cane and am very impressed with it.  It prints nicely, and has just the right amount of texture for its niche in my paper offerings.  Well done Hahnemuhle
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artfulcolor
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« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2009, 09:19:19 AM »
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Ron,

You are welcome. Guess people have stopped following this thread. Thought there would be more responses to my post. I've had my head down in this research for two months. I'm just curious about how people will respond to a very technical analysis. Don't know what the artists will think since they are so non-technical. It's so important to get the facts but some people are more interested in the hype than the facts. Starting to make some good progress now that the manufacturers are starting to provide some good feedback. Regards - Damon

Quote from: Colorwave
Appreciate the perspective, Damon.  Nothing beats a fact or two.  I got my samples of the Sugar Cane and am very impressed with it.  It prints nicely, and has just the right amount of texture for its niche in my paper offerings.  Well done Hahnemuhle
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2009, 10:53:12 AM »
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Hi Damon,
Well, I consider myself an artist first, but I have to be extremely technical, as a digital photographer, master printer and all around computer guru and IT guy. I may not like being that technical but I have to respect those hats or else the results show the lack of understanding totally.

IMO, when it comes to the paper, I'd say it's mostly how it looks and performs. That's what artist's want in the product first, followed by other factors.

I'm worried, being an HPZ user, how it will specifically perform in my printer.

A good example of what I mean is expressed in my testing of Hahnemmuhle Bamboo. This is the only paper that gives me consistent roller marks in the blacks, even after I got the black pinch rollers replaced to the tan pinch rollers in my HPZ. I never hear anyone else on this forum say that. I am wondering: Why am I getting this. HP is of no help. I wrote to Hahnemmuhle, but they did not respond. So no matter how untechnical or artistic I want to be, unless I want roller marks, that paper will not be used in my printer.

Sigh. I personally feel that there are too many hurdles sometimes, and there are too few sources of any good focussed information, let alone any really good technical information. All the manufacturers are businesses first and they want you to buy buy buy and they do not work well together. They may even form alliances, but there aren't any guarantees. It's buyer beware, and bring lots of money, and time, and patience to this picnic.

Sorry, if I seem bitter, but I guess you might say that I am.

So long for now, TOM


Quote from: artfulcolor
Don't know what the artists will think since they are so non-technical.
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2009, 11:07:18 AM »
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A few well placed facts tends to put speculation to rest. Cotton paper being made by waste products puts a end to the Cotton = bad debate, same for sugar cane.
As for "Hahnemuhle covers this issue by sourcing its bamboo from legal harvest areas and locations not converted from natural forest." by using bamboo sourced from
good legal harvest areas just moves the demand for non legal harvested bamboo up. Though the amount of bamboo being used for Hahnemule fine art paper must be a
very small drop in the bucket of bamboo used. Seems to be much like "Carbon Credits" largely a corporate PR shell game IMHO. When will they make a hemp based fine art
paper? Think of all the unused fiber being wasted in Humboldt county alone
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2009, 11:25:02 AM »
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Tom-
We have the same machine, and I have the updated pinch rollers, same as you.  I wish I had an answer for you as to why you are having marking issues with the Bamboo, but I'm thankfully not experiencing the same issues with it or the Sugar Cane.  I assume that you have checked, and the width and spacing line up with the rollers?  I only ran into this problem, before the part upgrade, with glossy papers like the Harman.  My problems showed up as faint gloss differential variances.  What do yours look like on matte papers?  I've only run 11" x 17" Sugar Cane test paper through mine, so far, but a very dark background print showed no marks.

Damon-
Who knows why some posts hit a particular hot button and others do not, but thanks again for the perspective about fine art paper sources.  It's nice to be able assuage the concerns about pesticide and fertilizer use for cotton, since it is not a first source use for the raw material.  I like the marketing angle for cotton and the new Hahnemuhle papers, but more significantly, I like the fact that they are legitimately better than other sources for the environment.  Let's keep as many trees as we can upright and planted.  As for artists not caring about much of the technical side of things, that is obviously true, and one reason that the ecological angle needs to reinforce the use of these papers, not be the sole reason to use them.  High quality printing still comes first, in terms of criteria.
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