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Author Topic: wide angle lens options for architecture  (Read 7719 times)
alan100
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« on: April 01, 2009, 03:29:26 PM »
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I am looking for some advice on the Rodenstock HR Digaron 23mm and Apo-Digitar 28mm. I shoot architecture on an alpa xy with a range of lenses, the widest of which is the Schneider Apo digitar 35mm. This is usually wide enough but when necessary I will stitch two images. I'm guessing but this extra  gives me a similar angle of view to the 28mm. Given the trouble of stitching and gain adjusts I was thinking of buying one of the Rodenstocks. Has anyone experience with either? I'd like to know how much real movement these lenses have and if they have flaws like the Schnieder 35mm ie casts and centrefold and is there is any barrelling distortion with the lenses. Do they warrant the high price?
Thanks
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archivue
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2009, 07:33:37 PM »
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Quote from: alan100
flaws like the Schnieder 35mm ie casts and centrefold and is there is any barrelling distortion with the lenses.

i canno't answer to your post... but i'd like to know what are you thinking about your 35 ?
I hesitate betwen the sironar digital 35 (not the HR) and the apo digitar XL...  thanks !

Main use will be architecture with movements !


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rethmeier
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 08:18:55 PM »
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From what I've seen is that the 23HR has less distortion than the 28HR.
However for that sort of money you would expect it to be bloody good!

If I was cashed up I would have a Sinar arTec or an Alpa Max with all Rodenstock HR lenses.
No stuffing around with centre filters etc.

Right now my D3x will have to do the job and it's pretty good.

Not in the HR and MFDB league I might add,but not in that price range either.

Best,

Willem.

N.B It is known that the Scheider Digitars have less or no distortion.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 08:22:45 PM »
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I forgot to mention that the Schneider 28 Apo Digitar is not suitable for architecture.

Too much distortion!

The Rodenstock 28HR is far superior!
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Willem Rethmeier
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 09:41:31 PM »
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I have the Schneider Apo digitar 48mm 35mm and 24mm lenses. The angle of view is obviously a lot wider on the 24mm lens. I shoot architecture and landscapes. My architectural compositions are always quite tight, however I use the 35mm probably 80% of the time at least. The reason is that the amount of lens movement possible on the 24mm is tiny compared to the 35mm. You only get a couple of mm compared to 17mm and 20mm with the 35mm lens, so the 24mm lens is useless when you have to correct verticals.
The image quality with the 24mm is fantastic though. I would use it more for internal shots where things are tight.  I know it's a pain in the behind stitching but the ultra wide lens won't solve the problem. I think anyway the type of image you get with the stitched images just works really well for architecture and landscapes. Also I think you just get a much more dynamic shot where you have stronger lens movements.
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MHFA
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 01:12:56 AM »
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The Rodenstock HR 28 is a really outstanding lens for architectural work. The price is really high, but I think it will keep it. The 24 Schneider doesn`t work with bigger chips and I think with the competition of the 35mm Format the sensor design will grow up. The 23 perhaps is a better solution but the final version is not on the market.
On the Artec I used 28 and 35mm lenses and it is a good combination.

Michael
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arc-technika
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 02:38:27 AM »
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After a long 5 month wait, I just received my Alpa 23mm HR and it's by far the best lens I have ever used in the field. In comparison with the Schneider 24mm XL Digitar, the 23HR has a huge amount of shift capability, and it is also sharp wide open (f/5.6 is like f/11 on a 24XL). I've used the 28HR, 24XL, 35XL, and 47XL and I found that the Schneiders are great to have if you need a large amount of shift, not to mention that the image circles on the XL lenses are quite smooth compared to the HR's. There is distortion at the edge of the image circle for the HR's, but the 23 and 28mm HR lenses are wide enough that I haven't found a need to surpass 11mm of shift. The 23HR is pricey, but the image quality and having the ability to stitch a very wide shot makes a world of a difference for my architectural and personal fine art work.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »
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Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal.  But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?


but you have
Quote from: arc-technika
After a long 5 month wait, I just received my Alpa 23mm HR and it's by far the best lens I have ever used in the field. In comparison with the Schneider 24mm XL Digitar, the 23HR has a huge amount of shift capability, and it is also sharp wide open (f/5.6 is like f/11 on a 24XL). I've used the 28HR, 24XL, 35XL, and 47XL and I found that the Schneiders are great to have if you need a large amount of shift, not to mention that the image circles on the XL lenses are quite smooth compared to the HR's. There is distortion at the edge of the image circle for the HR's, but the 23 and 28mm HR lenses are wide enough that I haven't found a need to surpass 11mm of shift. The 23HR is pricey, but the image quality and having the ability to stitch a very wide shot makes a world of a difference for my architectural and personal fine art work.
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markowich
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 02:35:15 AM »
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enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter

Quote from: Enda Cavanagh
Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal.  But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?


but you have
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arc-technika
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 03:07:08 AM »
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Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.

All the best,

Andrew

Quote from: Enda Cavanagh
Bloody Nora
I thought the amazing new rechargeable battery which I just bought and which I can use with my Hasselblad H3D together with the cambo digitar wide DS was the best thing since sliced pan but I just checked the rodenstock website and the 23mm lens is lile manna from heaven. BTW you say you don't need to surpass 11mm of shift with the 23mm lens. Is this really possible. It says the maximum movement is 7/5mm vertical/horizontal.  But even that would make quite a difference compared to the 24mm schneider.
What do you actually mean when you say the image circle on the HR lenses is not very smooth?


but you have
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2009, 06:56:36 AM »
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Ya. I sort of regret buying the 24xl to be honest. The 23HR sounds way more promising. Even the 7mm rise would be quite a difference with it's angle of view. Like you say I too end up stictching with the 35mm lens most of the time. Checked the price on the Alpa website. Thank God I was sitting down. It's well over twice the price of the 24XL.  

Quote from: arc-technika
Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.

All the best,

Andrew
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Robert Moore
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2009, 07:20:40 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter


From BH Photo website:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5030..._Universal.html

Add Belkin FW 400 hub and a FW 400 - 800 cable...runs all day.

Bob
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rainer_v
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2009, 11:51:44 AM »
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Quote from: arc-technika
Sorry, I got my numbers mixed up! The 28HR can be shifted to 10-11mm horizontal before unacceptable distortion starts to occur. The 23HR's shift capabilities are 7/5mm horizontal as Rodenstock states. I didn't go with the 24XL because I shift a lot for most of my photographs, I would rather stitch a 28HR shot than purchase a lens that only has a 2-3mm capability. The HR lenses all have a sharp image circle compared to the Schneiders, which means that it does not have a graduated vignette. It kind of looks like a lens got cut off by stacking two filters on a lens when you hit the image circle.

All the best,

Andrew

often there is sky or uniform textures at the up- shiftet part of an image. for this motif i use the rodenstock wides till the end of its circle or even slightly over it and copy later e.g. the sky in the vignetted corners. vignetting starts ( with dalsa 36x48cm sensors in horizontal sensor position ) with the 28HR at 12-13mm and with the 23HR at 9-10mm shift.
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rainer viertlböck
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Edmund Sumner
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2009, 04:29:18 PM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
often there is sky or uniform textures at the up- shiftet part of an image. for this motif i use the rodenstock wides till the end of its circle or even slightly over it and copy later e.g. the sky in the vignetted corners. vignetting starts ( with dalsa 36x48cm sensors in horizontal sensor position ) with the 28HR at 12-13mm and with the 23HR at 9-10mm shift.

Yes I would agree that wide angles in Architectural photography are now a pain but I think part of the problem is actually the Format, ie Long and thin compared to a 5/4 format

a two shot stitch seem to become more akin to the 5/4 (ideal) ratio

my widest lens is a 38 but to be honest prefer to stitch on anything above the  58/72, if one goes too wide there always seems to be issues

Edmund

www.edmundsumner.co.uk
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BJNY
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2009, 05:33:11 PM »
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I believe the dimensions of the P65+ sensor is 54 x 40.5
making it not too far off from 5:4
which appeals to me.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2009, 10:53:45 PM »
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I use a 24xl all the time, and don't find it limiting. Every blue moon I wish for a little more movement, but Its not that often.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 03:47:01 PM »
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Hi Mark
Here's a link to the big wave power website  
http://www.bigwavepower.com/prod_search/powerall.php. It's called the EnergyPORT or also the Titan I. Don't ask me why it has 2 names. I bought it in expanseys.ie and it was called the Titan I.

The one Bob suggests also seems to be fine



Quote from: markowich
enda, what is this recharchable batttery for the H3D back? please fill me in. thanks, peter
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »
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Hi John
Are you an architectural photographer. If so how do you take photos with the 24xl of taller spaces or buildings when you have so little lens movements and you are quite close to your subject? I find the lens has very limited use in these cases.

Quote from: pixjohn
I use a 24xl all the time, and don't find it limiting. Every blue moon I wish for a little more movement, but Its not that often.
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alan100
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2009, 01:53:37 PM »
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I have been told that the 23mm  new rodenstock has some problems in that it is easy creates a lens flare spot in the middle of the image and that the lens requires as a result a lot of care in its use. Can anyone confirm? My alpa does not offer a good system to shade the lens. How would other systems over come this? Finally has anyone had  any colour shift problems with these lenses? Does their design reduce these problems or are they just not there?
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David Klepacki
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2009, 07:03:42 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
I believe the dimensions of the P65+ sensor is 54 x 40.5
making it not too far off from 5:4
which appeals to me.


It will take a 67.5mm image circle to cover a P65+ sensor, so the HR Digaron-S 23 and 28 lenses will not have much movement.  In fact, Rodenstock says that their new line of Digaron-W lenses should be used instead with this larger sensor in order to have enough shifting capability.  However, their widest Digaron-W is 40mm.  

So, for architectural use, what do you think is preferred: a P65+ and the longer Digaron-W 40 lens, or a smaller sensor (37x49) and the much wider Digaron-S 23 or S-28 lenses??

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