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Author Topic: wide angle lens options for architecture  (Read 7714 times)
archivue
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2009, 03:44:18 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
So, for architectural use, what do you think is preferred: a P65+ and the longer Digaron-W 40 lens,?

Nobody have test it so far...
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David Klepacki
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2009, 11:39:12 AM »
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Quote from: archivue
Nobody have test it so far...

My question is more generic for the architectural shooters here.  Basically, would you prefer to have a larger sensor with some restriction to longer focal lengths for larger image circles (e.g., the 60MP P65+ back and 40mm lens), or would you prefer to use a smaller sensor in order to use a much wider focal length with movements (e.g., the 50MP  H3DII-50 back and 23mm lens)?  

In other words, is a larger chip and extra megapixels of more value to you, or is having a wider angle of view (with movements) of more value?


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AlanG
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2009, 10:10:57 PM »
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Now that a Hasselblad H3DII 31 is only $12,995 (without lens)  I was wondering what that or a similar back will go for.  (New or better still used.)

It crossed my mind that I could buy a relatively modest 31 megapixel back and use it on my view camera with my 35mm Rodenstock Apo Grandagon and my 47MM  Super Angulon XL.  I'd use the sliding back movement to shoot several shots and stitch.  I have a Linhof Technikardan 45S camera.

Now I've done a lot of stitching with Autopano, so I know that works well. But any opinions of using such a digital back with those lenses.  Will the color shift too much?  Is the lens resolution good enough? Other issues that I haven't thought of?

Thanks.
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Alan Goldstein
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rainer_v
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 04:12:52 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
My question is more generic for the architectural shooters here.  Basically, would you prefer to have a larger sensor with some restriction to longer focal lengths for larger image circles (e.g., the 60MP P65+ back and 40mm lens), or would you prefer to use a smaller sensor in order to use a much wider focal length with movements (e.g., the 50MP  H3DII-50 back and 23mm lens)?  

In other words, is a larger chip and extra megapixels of more value to you, or is having a wider angle of view (with movements) of more value?
for me movements are very important because i want to see the image on the groundglass.
ofcourse one can crop later or also correct perspectives.
#
but in practice its another thing to work with the optical  shifted image than to abstract the motif in thinking to correct perspectives
in post or to crop.
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rainer viertlböck
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carstenw
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2009, 04:30:08 AM »
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Quote from: AlanG
Now that a Hasselblad H3DII 31 is only $12,995 (without lens)  I was wondering what that or a similar back will go for.  (New or better still used.)

It crossed my mind that I could buy a relatively modest 31 megapixel back and use it on my view camera with my 35mm Rodenstock Apo Grandagon and my 47MM  Super Angulon XL.  I'd use the sliding back movement to shoot several shots and stitch.  I have a Linhof Technikardan 45S camera.

Now I've done a lot of stitching with Autopano, so I know that works well. But any opinions of using such a digital back with those lenses.  Will the color shift too much?  Is the lens resolution good enough? Other issues that I haven't thought of?

Thanks.

The 31MP backs have microlenses and are not recommended for shift work... Having said that, I don't know what happens if you do it anyway.
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AlanG
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2009, 11:11:11 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
The 31MP backs have microlenses and are not recommended for shift work... Having said that, I don't know what happens if you do it anyway.


Thanks.  Well it would be good to know which specific backs might be best for this.  If I buy used from a store, I might be able to try it out before committing - as long as it has a 4x5 adapter.  I know that in the old days it was common to shoot several smaller digital images on an LF camera and stitch. (They made special backs to facilitate this.)  All I'm thinking is making two or three shots, sliding the back each time.  Produce maybe a 44mm by 70mm area of around 60 megapixels. That would be pretty wide on a 35mm Apo Grandagon.  I know about color correcting via shooting through a diffuser. But I also figure that Autopano is pretty good at blending.  

I've seen people stitch with the Cambo DS wides and other cameras, so there must be a way. I'm mostly wondering how well my current lenses will do.

I was thinking I could get pretty wide hi res results this way but it may be more trouble than it's worth.  A 5DII on a pano head is probably easier.  I bet that used 28 and 31 megapixel backs will be dirt cheap in a year or so. Maybe the 39 megapixel ones will not be too high by then either.

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Alan Goldstein
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carstenw
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2009, 07:30:29 PM »
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Quote from: AlanG
I've seen people stitch with the Cambo DS wides and other cameras, so there must be a way. I'm mostly wondering how well my current lenses will do.

If you read related threads here and on getdpi, you will see that focusing any of these cameras is a real bear with a digital back. Hardly any of these cameras were made for it, and those which were, and which can reliably be focused, cost a fortune, like the gorgeous Sinar arTec. I am not sure if I would count on being able to use much of your existing kit. The tolerances are insane. Have you read the two recent articles by Joseph Holmes?

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
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AlanG
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 12:06:27 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
I am not sure if I would count on being able to use much of your existing kit. The tolerances are insane. Have you read the two recent articles by Joseph Holmes?

Yeah I know. At the last Photo Expo I had a long discussion about it with the man from Linhof. I was looking over the Techno and 23mm Rodenstock.  He kept telling me that my lenses and camera wouldn't be precise enough.  But I'm not talking about one shot on a small area, I'm talking about stitching over a bigger image circle. I have had no problem focusing the Linhof with these lenses and the ground glass.  Anyway, I'd shoot tethered and could refocus slightly until it is correct. That seems to be what a lot of people do anyway with wide lenses, or they scale focus them, examine the magnified image on the back and refocus.

I think what I'll do is set up my 5DII and focus a view camera lens onto it and see what the image looks like. I don't know what's the shortest lens that will work for this, but if my 90mm or 115mm Grandagon makes a really sharp image, I don't see why the others wouldn't work well on a larger digital back.

At some point, I'll get my hands on a back and try it out. I'm sure one of the MF dealers who calls me all the time will be glad to have the opportunity.  This is just an experiment.
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Alan Goldstein
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rainer_v
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 01:58:14 AM »
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largest problem with the techikardan l will be the parallelism of the front and rear standards.
in the time when  i was working with the techikardan i adjusted them once in a while, but this cannot be done on a level precise enough. it will result that the right part of the image will not get exactly the same sharpness than the left part.
here you will find the real problems. independent how large you will make your image circle with stitching,
the unsharpness will increase with the size of the image, so there will be no benefit of covering a bigger area of the circle.
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rainer viertlböck
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AlanG
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 11:32:35 AM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
largest problem with the techikardan l will be the parallelism of the front and rear standards.
in the time when  i was working with the techikardan i adjusted them once in a while, but this cannot be done on a level precise enough. it will result that the right part of the image will not get exactly the same sharpness than the left part.
here you will find the real problems. independent how large you will make your image circle with stitching,
the unsharpness will increase with the size of the image, so there will be no benefit of covering a bigger area of the circle.

Thanks,

I figured this could be an issue.  But why don't I see this on film?  Is the resolution that much higher? Anyway, I wouldn't have to use the Technikardan.  I could use the same sliding back and stitch principle on a rigid wide angle camera as long as it has a back that can shift.  The idea is to get wider coverage and a higher pixel count without breaking the bank.
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Alan Goldstein
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tho_mas
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2009, 11:36:51 AM »
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Quote from: AlanG
I was looking over the Techno and 23mm Rodenstock.
Quote from: AlanG
I figured this could be an issue.  But why don't I see this on film?  Is the resolution that much higher? Anyway, I wouldn't have to use the Technikardan.  I could use the same sliding back and stitch principle on a rigid wide angle camera as long as it has a back that can shift.  The idea is to get wider coverage and a higher pixel count without breaking the bank.
If your primary concern is stitching I think there are better solutions than the Techno (though a nice camera).
Stitching based on movements of the back within the image circle of the (fixed) lens is more accurate.
For instance the Horseman SW-D II Pro, the Cambo WRS1000 (both without tilt) or the new ARCA-SWISS Rm3d have fixed lenses but the film plane can be shifted in 4 directions. The Alpa 12 Max or 12XY do the same (afaik) but in addition the lens panel can be shifted.
On such cameras as the ArTec or the Cambo WDS rise/fall movements are made with the lens while lateral movements are made with the back. Still better than movements solely with the lens if you don't want to stitch more than 2 captures.
As to the lenses... I'd say the smaller the pixels the more you will need digital LF lenses (Schneider Digitars or Rodenstock HR). While e.g. a P25 with its 9microns might be more forgiving a P45 with its 6.8microns is merciless at the edges even without movements - but especially with larger movements.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 11:55:23 AM by tho_mas » Logged
AlanG
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 01:11:46 PM »
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Thanks.

Yeah when I was looking at the Techno, I wasn't thinking about stitching. I know I'd need to have a camera that has a good back shift.  Right now I am doing this via a pano head and a 5DII into a planar stitch. And that may be the simplest way to go.  I just have all this view camera gear (10 lenses) and was thinking of it as an option. Especially if I eventually can get a 22+ megapixel back at a low price. But I'll probably skip it and sell the LF gear.
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Alan Goldstein
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archivue
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2009, 01:32:29 PM »
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Have you heard of the quadstitch back ?
quad

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AlanG
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2009, 04:54:57 PM »
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Quote from: archivue
Have you heard of the quadstitch back ?


That company should know what will work and what won't.  I checked it out and while it might be good for a still life shooter, it's too bulky and complicated for what I'd like to do.

I remember similar backs from when MF sensors first came out.   That and the fact I've been using Autopano made me think I could simply do it with my Technikardan.  I most likely will stitch just one horizontal row.  Autopano doesn't require much precision, just some overlap.

Well I like experimenting so today I put the Technikardan on one tripod with a 75mm Super Angulon on it and the 5DII on another tripod via a sliding rail. I had no trouble focusing the image on the 5DII using magnified live view.  I got a really sharp clear image and could control focus where I wanted even though the two cameras were not connected or even close to being accurately aligned.  So I figure if I can do it with a 75, I could probably do it with a much shorter lens on an MF back that is actually attached to the camera.  It would really be nice to have live view on the MF, but tethered or LCD review will let me check focus.

Here is the image of my very messy kitchen shot at f11 or 16 (best I recall.) And 100% crops.  If a larger 22+ megapixel sensor works as well as the 5DII and give me a 48mmx72mm area (or wider) coverage from my 35mm and 47mm lenses, it will certainly work for me.  This will easily put it in the 45 to 60 megapixel range using just three shots in a horizontal row.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 05:23:58 PM by AlanG » Logged

Alan Goldstein
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