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Author Topic: New Hartblei Digital Tilt Shift lenses - with Zeiss optics  (Read 23775 times)
zachary_goulko
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« on: April 02, 2009, 08:44:45 AM »
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Hartblei has completely revamped their super rotator tilt shift lenses, which now sport Zeiss glass. They are digital lenses and supposedly outresolve most digital sensors available today (up to 200 lp/mm resolution). Also, they feature integrated tripod mounts for parallax-free stitching.

They also come in 20, 80, and 120mm.

I've been looking for a lightweight portable solution for panorama stitching for some time now. After emailing Hartblei, they told me that the 40mm is around $6k US. Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these yet, and if so does it hold up to the specs and it's price point?

here is the link: http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:50:17 AM by zachary_goulko » Logged

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BobDavid
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 08:48:34 AM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
Hartblei has completely revamped their super rotator tilt shift lenses, which now sport Zeiss glass. They are digital lenses and supposedly outresolve most digital sensors available today (up to 200 lp/mm resolution). Also, they feature integrated tripod mounts for parallax-free stitching.

They also come in 20, 80, and 120mm.

I've been looking for a lightweight portable solution for panorama stitching for some time now. After emailing Hartblei, they told me that the 40mm is around $6k US. Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these yet, and if so does it hold up to the specs and it's price point?

You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:49:36 AM by BobDavid » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 08:53:34 AM »
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Quote from: BobDavid
You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.

If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.

How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.
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zachary_goulko
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 08:58:21 AM »
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Quote from: BobDavid
You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.

Can the HTS be placed on a tripod for parallax free stitching?
Also, does the Japanese glass in the H lenses hold up with Zeiss? I am pretty disappointed with the 35mm HC lens.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:59:28 AM by zachary_goulko » Logged

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gwhitf
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 09:06:51 AM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko

One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.

Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.

Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.

Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 09:09:22 AM by gwhitf » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 09:11:05 AM »
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Quote from: foto-z
If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.

How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.

I perhaps would suggest you reserve such comments until the moment somebody does a specific side-by-side comparison.

I was only visiting a client today who described that the HTS 'saved them' on a job.  They had to copy reflective flat artwork in a gallery, with difficult light.  Being able to position the camera off centre to the artwork and shift into place was enough to give them far finer controls and achieve what they needed.

No complaints about image quality.

Best,


David


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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 09:13:36 AM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
Can the HTS be placed on a tripod for parallax free stitching?
Also, does the Japanese glass in the H lenses hold up with Zeiss? I am pretty disappointed with the 35mm HC lens.

The HTS does not have a tripod mount.  There would be too much mechanical stress, plus you could not then rotate for horizontal shifting.

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David Grover
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zachary_goulko
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 09:25:01 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.

Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.

Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.

Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.

On their site they say that the lenses are available in the following mounts:

 Canon EF
 Nikon F
 Sony/Minolta
 PentaxK
 Leica R
 Contax

However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf
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bcooter
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 09:41:22 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.

Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.

Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.

Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.


Vague is being polite, when you combine information from a Ukranian lens maker and throw in an "alliance" with a medium format maker.  

Bascially without having hard facts historically Harteblie lenses, regardless of mount have generally been designed to cover a 645 format and the 35mm versions, even pre zeiss glass were just 645 lenses with a few different 35mm mounts.  (Actually 6x6 Kiev lenses with different mounts).

Now with Ziess glass they might be sharper, though I like the older softer Russian Spy Lens glass, the build quality is always been kind of hit and miss with every example having it's own unique character.

I have two SuperRotators one for the Contax,, one for Canon and the Contax version just got stiff and takes almost two hands to makes adjustments where the Canon version is still smooth and easy to work.

The difference is the Canon version is never really sharp, the Contax version is, (though I never found Canon's early TS's that sharp either).

I doubt seriously if you will see the Zeiss versions of these lenses in anything but 35mm and if they do go to 645 it will probably be only Phamamamaiya and even then probably 2012 before they are out.

Still for the prices, I doubt seriously if you'll see any of these lenses out in the marketplace.



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gwhitf
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 09:49:06 AM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf

But read the copy in that PDF. Seems to talk only about 35 use.

Like I say, very vague. I rest my case.

Yeah, I'd want to base my career on going with gear from this company. Yeah, right.
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bcooter
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 09:59:31 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
But read the copy in that PDF. Seems to talk only about 35 use.

Like I say, very vague. I rest my case.

Yeah, I'd want to base my career on going with gear from this company. Yeah, right.


That's probably because they have a deal with Phase and since there is only one almost new focal plane medium format camera still made, the Phamamamamiya, (you know the Lexus of the Mamiya line), they leave the 645 sales to Phase are allowed to sell 35mm lenses direct.

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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 10:10:35 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
I perhaps would suggest you reserve such comments until the moment somebody does a specific side-by-side comparison.
(snip)
No complaints about image quality.

David, sorry if you took offence. My comment was not intended as an attack on Hasselblad or the IQ of the HTS. There was a comment that an optical converter was 'infinitely better' than a dedicated TS lens, and that was plain absurd. I was attempting to state the fact that a dedicated T/S lens will outperform an optical converter every time (all else being equal).
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 10:12:31 AM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
On their site they say that the lenses are available in the following mounts:

 Canon EF
 Nikon F
 Sony/Minolta
 PentaxK
 Leica R
 Contax

However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf

They also list:

Kiev 60 / Pentacon Six, Mamiya 645, Contax 645, Pentax 645

on Hartblei.com


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BJNY
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 10:39:51 AM »
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Announced at Photokina 2008, but I haven't seen further info on the Rodenstock S + T series :

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=28235&hl=


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Guillermo
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 10:43:24 AM »
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Stefan Steib from Hartblei DE visits these forums every now and again and he is the best person to explain the exact dynamics between between the German and the Ukrainian sides of the name, and of course about the lenses, where they come from and what they are designed for.

I've seen images taken with these lenses on a 5D and they were far better than what I know from Canon glass. My understanding is that they use Carl Zeiss glass kits (made for medium format) and fit them with the T/S mechanism and a 35mm mount.

The 45mm T/S for medium format, to my knowledge, does not use Zeiss glass. Again Stefan is the guy and I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any question:

BR

Yair
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BobDavid
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 10:59:28 AM »
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Quote from: foto-z
If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.

How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.

Maybe "infinite" is an exageration. But, with the HTS, you can use 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, and 100mm HC lenses. The Fuji glass is exceptional. The HTS also provides smoooooth and precisely repeatable setup. The only advantage I can see to the Hartblei is that it is probably more convenient to handhold.

People bash the HC35 from time to time, but I've got to say it completely outclasses the Mamiya version.

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mtomalty
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 11:02:08 AM »
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Not only was this trio of lenses announced at PhotoKina 2008 but they were also announced at PhotoKina 2006.

As Yair pointed out, Stefan Steib occasionally posts here and did post fairly frequently on these lenses, here,
after the announcement in Fall 2006.

These lenses were seemingly only available to buy as 'prototypes' in the term after Photokina2006
and it was impossible to track down anyone who was actually able to secure one or more.

If I recall accurately, Guy Mancuso also had a fairly lengthy back and forth with Mr Steib,on the Fred Miranda forums
over two years ago as he hoped to secure one or more of these lenses for his Leica DMR.

I think there were a number of photographers who might have been initially interested in these lenses for 35mm,even
at the $6K pricepoint, but 2-3 years on now and with Nikon rolling out their three excellent TS lenses and Canon reworking
their 24 TS and releasing a new 18mm TS I think it is going to be a tough sell for the Hartblei set.

The tripod collar will be a major asset for stitchers but Hartblei is going to have to go far beyond a few modest web images and
quotes to prove that their optics far outperform available competition.

Mark
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 11:10:24 AM »
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As mentioned, they are not new. The optical units are the exact same units as the last ones Zeiss made for Hassleblad before it was sold. For example, the Hartblei 40 uses the same optical unit from the Hasselblad 40mm CFE-IF. All that is different is their is no Prontor shutter in the Hartblei lenses, hence the aperture assembly is a Haretbeli design. The tripod mount is all that is new.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 11:11:45 AM by jjlphoto » Logged

Thanks, John Luke

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carstenw
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 11:14:37 AM »
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Quote from: mtomalty
These lenses were seemingly only available to buy as 'prototypes' in the term after Photokina2006
and it was impossible to track down anyone who was actually able to secure one or more.

Two separate photographers over at getdpi.com were able to get one of these, and both were much worse than even average copies of the earlier Hartblei versions, with amazingly soft corners and inconsistent results across the frame. I suppose development continues until the results wouldn't embarass Phase any more.
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BJNY
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 11:17:15 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Two separate photographers over at getdpi.com were able to get one of these, and both were much worse than even average copies of the earlier Hartblei versions, with amazingly soft corners and inconsistent results across the frame. I suppose development continues until the results wouldn't embarass Phase any more.

We're discussing the Zeiss formulas in 40mm, 80mm, and 120mm focal lengths

while the only tilt shift lens fitting the Phamiya is the 45mm.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 11:18:57 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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