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Author Topic: New Hartblei Digital Tilt Shift lenses - with Zeiss optics  (Read 24956 times)
BJNY
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2009, 06:10:10 PM »
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Stefan,

Thank you for participating here.

When will additional focal lengths be available to fit Mamiya 645?

Billy
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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2009, 01:52:51 AM »
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Hi Billy

Sorry I canīt tell, this falls under NDA with Phase One.

But I can tell you that Hartblei is working on additional products - you can read this on my last blog entry on
http://hartblei.blogspot.com/
especially I ask People what they think about a longer shift and tilt, namely a 4/180 Sonnar ( which is legendary)
and which could be a gift for all Studio Photographers doing cars, Bicycles, Whiteware.......but also for closeup and Nature Photography,
In short everything that needs more distance and a steeper perspective.

For me that has even more priority than a new wideangle (28mm) Hartblei lens.

So if people would tell me and vote for or aginst this it would be a real help.

Greetings from Munich

Quote from: BJNY
Stefan,

Thank you for participating here.

When will additional focal lengths be available to fit Mamiya 645?

Billy
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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2009, 02:11:57 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
With all due respect, one good sample is no more statistically valid than one bad sample. I hope you are not saying that what Peter Markowich is saying is a lie... It would be much more reassuring to hear your explanation for why Peter was getting the results he got, rather than you just pointing out that your lens, and by your implication, all Hartblei-Zeiss 40/4 T/S lenses, are much better than that. Either there is a problem with that one lens, or QC is not under sufficient control.

Peter, where is that lens now?

hi everybody,
the lenses were lent to me very generously by Andreas Tischer from the Digitalstore in Vienna. they are back there.
and, stefan, as far as future products are concerned: i really would love a 24mm (or 28mm) TS lens, which improves
the ok-but-not-so-great performance of the nikon 24mm PCE. possibly optimized for architecture and landscape.
but, of course, the majority might have other concerns.
peter
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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2009, 02:12:31 AM »
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Okay, I feel now that there is some progress on the core issue, the performance of the lens.

Quote from: Stefan.Steib
second: I had this lens in my hand recently and tested it before I sent it to Vienna. it is still available there to rent or try it.

So, you mean the same copy which Peter has tried? If so, did you find any differences between the performance of that copy and the "master" copy which you presumably have? In other words, could you confirm what Peter wrote, and the problem is only at "too close" distances?

Quote
About Hartblei.com
Hartblei.com is unfortunately hold by Pissarenko a former partner of Hartblei.

Well, hopefully you are able to get the URL. The current situation is very confusing, as this was the original URL, so it is the one people have bookmarked.
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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2009, 02:26:21 AM »
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actually, my tests were at medium and large distances.
peter


Quote from: carstenw
Okay, I feel now that there is some progress on the core issue, the performance of the lens.



So, you mean the same copy which Peter has tried? If so, did you find any differences between the performance of that copy and the "master" copy which you presumably have? In other words, could you confirm what Peter wrote, and the problem is only at "too close" distances?



Well, hopefully you are able to get the URL. The current situation is very confusing, as this was the original URL, so it is the one people have bookmarked.
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Carsten W
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« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2009, 03:28:17 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
actually, my tests were at medium and large distances.

Well, then I don't understand Stefan's answer to you, in which he insinuates that the problem is largely a close-focus phenomenon. Rather, the "Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction" has an effect at all distances then, which is quite disappointing for a 6k lens. That is, unless there was a problem with that particular copy, but Stefan appears to deny that.

Anyway, I am done with this thread. I find it disappointing that it is so hard to get a straight answer to the question of what went wrong with the lens in your tests. Do you have a sample which you could post, to make this thread a good reference point in the future?
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« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2009, 04:05:51 AM »
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I am surprised that the 40mm does not perform well on the medium and long distances. As I know from the Zeiss people, the  Hartblei 4/40 mm  is basically the relatively new  4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon design. I own the Distagon 4/40 as a Sinaron 40 AF  version (for Sinar-M) and it is my best 40 mm lens.

Yes, it is not the best for reproduction at close distances and Stefan's advise to stop down the lens  to f11-16 is a sound one. Stopped down my 4/40mm  Distagon can be used for reproduction and is used at least once a week.

Yevgeny
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:06:25 AM by ynp » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2009, 04:39:12 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Well, then I don't understand Stefan's answer to you, in which he insinuates that the problem is largely a close-focus phenomenon. Rather, the "Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction" has an effect at all distances then, which is quite disappointing for a 6k lens. That is, unless there was a problem with that particular copy, but Stefan appears to deny that.

Anyway, I am done with this thread. I find it disappointing that it is so hard to get a straight answer to the question of what went wrong with the lens in your tests. Do you have a sample which you could post, to make this thread a good reference point in the future?

if you email me, i shall send you files. i just do not want to downscale them to 2mb and get into jpg compression issues etc.
peter
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« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2009, 06:40:38 AM »
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Hi Peter

could you just CC the files you spoke about with Carsten send to me also so I can take a look ?

TIA

Stefan

Quote from: markowich
hi everybody,
the lenses were lent to me very generously by Andreas Tischer from the Digitalstore in Vienna. they are back there.
and, stefan, as far as future products are concerned: i really would love a 24mm (or 28mm) TS lens, which improves
the ok-but-not-so-great performance of the nikon 24mm PCE. possibly optimized for architecture and landscape.
but, of course, the majority might have other concerns.
peter
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csp
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« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2009, 07:09:34 AM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
cts and solutions for everything that I said.

And Iīm still waiting for the CEOīs of Nikon or Canon to talk to Internet Fora as I do. I know sometimes I shouldnīt, because itīs not easy, but I have done sysoping and support work  to several fora eg. Compuserve and AOL for Adobe (photoshop), Colormanagement and Apple/Aperture, so I still want to talk to my customers because itīs really important !

this is really funny !  you compare your one man show with the CEO`s of nikon and canon
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« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2009, 08:05:10 AM »
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CSP

As you may have heard before: Size doesnīt matter !  

I know a lot of people are complaining about information policy of larger companies.
We donīt do that, and to make you sleep better also, no Iīm not superman building everything here in my kitchen.

There are about 25 people working for and with Hartblei, if we take the external providers like Zeiss Elox, all Metal works,
UPS shipment office Laue which we use exclusively, and our new service in Hamburg, then itīs probably good over 40 who make, build, ship and maintain our lenses.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan


Quote from: csp
this is really funny !  you compare your one man show with the CEO`s of nikon and canon
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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2009, 08:32:23 AM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
CSP

As you may have heard before: Size doesnīt matter !  

I know a lot of people are complaining about information policy of larger companies.
We donīt do that, and to make you sleep better also, no Iīm not superman building everything here in my kitchen.

There are about 25 people working for and with Hartblei, if we take the external providers like Zeiss Elox, all Metal works,
UPS shipment office Laue which we use exclusively, and our new service in Hamburg, then itīs probably good over 40 who make, build, ship and maintain our lenses.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan


good idea, thank you i have never seen this that way i will start to call myself CEO too because  when i count all the people who work for me or with me from my housekeeper to my assistant  i'm as big as your company and i did not even include the bike messengers ;-)

your products are pricy so i think it is in the interest of potential buyers to know who the company is they deal with, this becomes more important
if  problems occur  in the future and you are maybe back to photography and training.  your website does not give any
information who hartblei.de really is.
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« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2009, 09:20:48 AM »
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Yevgeny

Iīm also a bit puzzled. This lens is biting sharp, even better than the 120 Makro.
some more links to take a look:

http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_...mshift_down.jpg  
=old 5d , Tripod , TC-80N.

http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16_4sec.jpg
=old 5d , Tripod , TC-80N.

http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16.jpg
=new 5 DII with Tungsten lights of a studioflash

Quote from: ynp
I am surprised that the 40mm does not perform well on the medium and long distances. As I know from the Zeiss people, the  Hartblei 4/40 mm  is basically the relatively new  4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon design. I own the Distagon 4/40 as a Sinaron 40 AF  version (for Sinar-M) and it is my best 40 mm lens.

Yes, it is not the best for reproduction at close distances and Stefan's advise to stop down the lens  to f11-16 is a sound one. Stopped down my 4/40mm  Distagon can be used for reproduction and is used at least once a week.

Yevgeny
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sdai
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« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2009, 09:35:36 AM »
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Wow, the last one on a 5D2 looks very nice.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2009, 11:13:43 AM »
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Maybe you should klick on "about us "
http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm

 

Stefan

Quote from: csp
good idea, thank you i have never seen this that way i will start to call myself CEO too because  when i count all the people who work for me or with me from my housekeeper to my assistant  i'm as big as your company and i did not even include the bike messengers ;-)

your products are pricy so i think it is in the interest of potential buyers to know who the company is they deal with, this becomes more important
if  problems occur  in the future and you are maybe back to photography and training.  your website does not give any
information who hartblei.de really is.
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« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2009, 11:49:01 AM »
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When I look at any of these lenses, I am thrown off by the price and I'm also suspicious of it.

A couple of years ago, I was considering the purchase of a 45mm Hartblei Super Rotator.  Michael Foreman in Atlanta was the importer and offered one to me for around $750-$850 if I recall. (I think the official price was about $1000, but they were available on Ebay for less than that.)  But I ended up buying the Canon 45 TS-E for more money as I wanted the auto aperture linkage.

Now that Phase One is selling them for $3990, what is different to justify more than a four fold increase in price? Especially considering that Luminous Landscape had a review of one that cost $1000 and praised it.
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« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2009, 12:36:17 PM »
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Alan

you have answered your question partly by yourself:
as people probably know Phase One and trust them there is no more reason to be "suspicious" .
The worldwide PhaseOne dealers carry the lenses and showcase them, you can try them before you buy, you have full Guarantee.
Additionally there were numerous improvements done to the lens, starting from the mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,
new antiflare coatings and selected lenses as well as a new bajonet mount adapted to the Mamiya 645 AF proportions with better precision.
Further: It is the only lens in the Market who has medium Format TS and Superrotation, there simply isnīt any competiton -
beside the Hasselblad HTS which is a whole diffferent concept and also costing several thousand dollars and working only on the Hx bodies.

maybe you should go to a PhaseOne dealer and take one in your hand and then you could speak about it.

I can also tell you that end of last year a contax version of the old Superrotator was sold on Ebay used for 2070 $.
maybe itīs because there is a Market and people looking for this and also because the old Superrotators were ridiculously sold under value.
If someone with a limited resource (our lenses) goes to a mass market (Ebay) this is probably the most stupid move you can make to achieve a fair price.
We have changed that, this is called Product Placement and free trade, this was how America and the rest of the western world was built - you remember ?
Nobody forces you to buy one, so why are you complaining ?  

Greetings from Munich
Stefan



Quote from: AlanG
When I look at any of these lenses, I am thrown off by the price and I'm also suspicious of it.

A couple of years ago, I was considering the purchase of a 45mm Hartblei Super Rotator.  Michael Foreman in Atlanta was the importer and offered one to me for around $750-$850 if I recall. (I think the official price was about $1000, but they were available on Ebay for less than that.)  But I ended up buying the Canon 45 TS-E for more money as I wanted the auto aperture linkage.

Now that Phase One is selling them for $3990, what is different to justify more than a four fold increase in price? Especially considering that Luminous Landscape had a review of one that cost $1000 and praised it.
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« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2009, 01:29:15 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
The worldwide PhaseOne dealers carry the lenses and showcase them, you can try them before you buy, you have full Guarantee.
Additionally there were numerous improvements done to the lens, starting from the mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,
new antiflare coatings and selected lenses as well as a new bajonet mount adapted to the Mamiya 645 AF proportions with better precision.
Further: It is the only lens in the Market who has medium Format TS and Superrotation, there simply isnīt any competiton -
beside the Hasselblad HTS which is a whole diffferent concept and also costing several thousand dollars and working only on the Hx bodies.

Sorry Stefan, you may be a fine gentleman, but I'm not buying what you are saying.  I've been following the Kiev, Hartblei story for a long time and have a number of the products. (Including six lenses.)

OK, Michael told me I could return it if I didn't like it.   So nothing new about the guarantee.  I bought a 55mm shift from him and was happy.  It was not very expensive.  Additionally, there is not much to go wrong with a manual focus manual diaphragm lens, unless you drop it.

Do the improvements warrant a 4+ fold increase in price? I think the fact that Hartblei realized there could be a demand, and the lack of competition are the most telling in your post.  Especially among MF digital photographers who are now used to paying tens of thousands for digital backs and several thousand for a lens.  What about the 55mm, 65mm, 80mm, and 120mm. Are these still available and what do they cost/ They're on the Hartblei site  I understand that these use the glass and lens designs mostly from Arsenal - lenses that are very inexpensive.  Doesn't the Hartblei 80mm SuperRotator use the 80mm Arsat lens? Aren't all the Hartblei lenses repackaged Arsats? (Ecept for the 3 new Zeiss models.) Doesn't Hartblei sell this 80mm Arsat lens directly for $60.  Why are the shift lenses so much less expensive than the Super Rotators (that you say are out of stock on the Hartblei web site.)

Here is the pricing that is listed on the Hartblei web site:

MC PCS Arsat 45mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $295
MC PCS Arsat 55mm / f=4.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six lens mount   $395
MC PCS Arsat 65mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $295
MC Arsat 80mm / f=2.8 Normal
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $60

Is the performance of these very inexpensive lenses substantially different from the ones that are in the - no longer available-  SuperRotator mounts?  Inquiring minds want to know.

So the 45mm shift lens (no tilt) lens is $295, but when you put it in the SuperRotator mount, improve the coating and change it to a Mamiya mount, and sell it through Phase One, the $3990 price is justified?  I notice the Hartblei site says the lenses can be used on Mamiyas and Contax cameras. Is this only via the $45 adapter, or are they sold in those mounts?  By the way, all Pentacon mounted lenses can work on Canon, Nikon and other cameras via an adapter - $45 adapter?

Also note there is a simple $85 shift adapter that lets you use the Pentacon Mount medium format lenses as shift lenses on 35mm cameras.

Here's a link to the Hartblei price list:

http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm
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« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2009, 01:55:11 PM »
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Alan

This is very simple to answer:

Hartblei.com sadly is only scam today. (We are working to get the  domain back, but actually I concentrate now on making good products instead of paying lawyers).
They do not have any real Hartblei lenses anymore. The "Hartblei" tilt  and "Hartblei" shift adapters are not made by Hartblei.
The quality of these products is poor and we have nothing to do with them.
Their pricelist is pure hot air, these lenses are not even built anymore and this is the reason why they state on their "pricelist" (maybe wishlist is the better name for it) they donīt have any.........
So the point is, you are speaking of the past. Arsenal does not build any lenses anymore, so also Arsat will dry out sooner or later.
Arsenal and other connected factories have gone bankrupt because they were selling their stuff e.g. to ebay customers for Phantasy prices not even covering their costs, driven by some dealers, who bought
discount for fast bucks and sold the stuff like carpets. You liked that ?

additionaly please read post number 8 of this thread.

What do you think we have done the last 3 years ? The new range of products has nothing to do with the old stuff.
If you would see one of the new lenses you would understand.
We have made a clear cut, Mike Fourman is out and has no whatsoever Hartblei Products to sell anymore.
The other ukrainian and russian dealers on Ebay have only some old stock left which they now try to sell for double price (as a result of our work!)
We have decided that good work of Ukrainian Engineers and Mechanics is as valuable as anwhere else in the world.
Kiev is a pretty expensive City now, the time of bargains and USSR leftover auctions is over.
Our workers get fair payment for their work and will have a perspective for a future product devellopment and job stability.

we will not go back to the old nonsense.

Stefan



Quote from: AlanG
Sorry Stefan, you may be a fine gentleman, but I'm not buying what you are saying.  I've been following the Kiev, Hartblei story for a long time and have a number of the products. (Including six lenses.)

OK, Michael told me I could return it if I didn't like it.   So nothing new about the guarantee.  I bought a 55mm shift from him and was happy.  It was not very expensive.  Additionally, there is not much to go wrong with a manual focus manual diaphragm lens, unless you drop it.

Do the improvements warrant a 4+ fold increase in price? I think the fact that Hartblei realized there could be a demand, and the lack of competition are the most telling in your post.  Especially among MF digital photographers who are now used to paying tens of thousands for digital backs and several thousand for a lens.  What about the 55mm, 65mm, 80mm, and 120mm. Are these still available and what do they cost/ They're on the Hartblei site  I understand that these use the glass and lens designs mostly from Arsenal - lenses that are very inexpensive.  Doesn't the Hartblei 80mm SuperRotator use the 80mm Arsat lens? Aren't all the Hartblei lenses repackaged Arsats? (Ecept for the 3 new Zeiss models.) Doesn't Hartblei sell this 80mm Arsat lens directly for $60.  Why are the shift lenses so much less expensive than the Super Rotators (that you say are out of stock on the Hartblei web site.)

Here is the pricing that is listed on the Hartblei web site:

MC PCS Arsat 45mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $295
MC PCS Arsat 55mm / f=4.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six lens mount   $395
MC PCS Arsat 65mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $295
MC Arsat 80mm / f=2.8 Normal
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount   $60

Is the performance of these very inexpensive lenses substantially different from the ones that are in the - no longer available-  SuperRotator mounts?  Inquiring minds want to know.

So the 45mm shift lens (no tilt) lens is $295, but when you put it in the SuperRotator mount, improve the coating and change it to a Mamiya mount, and sell it through Phase One, the $3990 price is justified?  I notice the Hartblei site says the lenses can be used on Mamiyas and Contax cameras. Is this only via the $45 adapter, or are they sold in those mounts?  By the way, all Pentacon mounted lenses can work on Canon, Nikon and other cameras via an adapter - $45 adapter?

Also note there is a simple $85 shift adapter that lets you use the Pentacon Mount medium format lenses as shift lenses on 35mm cameras.

Here's a link to the Hartblei price list:

http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm
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« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2009, 02:39:33 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
Maybe you should klick on "about us "
http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm

 

Stefan



this explains nothing, who is hartblei kiev not even an adress is on your site ? are you the ceo of the ukraine company or of you small german bussiness ?
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