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Author Topic: New Hartblei Digital Tilt Shift lenses - with Zeiss optics  (Read 23200 times)
ynp
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« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2009, 03:09:32 PM »
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Stefan,

May I ask you a question?

Is the P1 Superrotator for Phamiya still a combination of pretty old Ukrainian or Lytkarino (Moscow Region) Glass and your excellent German  mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,etc?
     

Thank you,
Yevgeny
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« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2009, 03:10:09 PM »
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Quote from my Website:
Steib was sure that the use of Carl Zeiss optics would create an incredible demand on the global market for professional lenses. So Sergeji Nauminko (Kiev, Construction and Development) and Stefan Steib (Munich, Concept, Sales, PR and Marketing), decided to restructure Hartblei to achieve best possible results for this task.

The address in Kiev has been on our former order form so it´s no secret : Hartblei - Sergeji Naumenko Ul. Panasa-Mirnogo, 11/60  Kiev Ukraina
Sergeji and me got 50 % each from Hartblei - so we are equal partners.

BTW who are you- can we get a name from you ? Or do you prefer to stay anonymous "CSP" ?

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

Quote from: csp
this explains nothing, who is hartblei kiev not even an adress is on your site ? are you the ceo of the ukraine company or of you small german bussiness ?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:20:15 PM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2009, 03:32:01 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
BTW who are you- can we get a name from you ? Or do you prefer to stay anonymous "CSP" ?

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that  we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.

Edmund
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« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2009, 03:39:45 PM »
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Well my 55mm Arsat Shift lens is quite good, very well made, with a smooth and precise shifting mechanism. And it cost about $350 if I recall.

Here are shift and tilt options from Zoerk.

http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf

I called Kiev USA who also used to sell the various shift lenses and Hartblei SuperRotators. I do not know if this is true but they told me that the Kiev Camera and Arsenal lens plants have shut down.  They believe that Hartblei bought up many of the remaining lenses for use in their SuperRotator mounts. So if true, this could explain the price jump and why the 55mm and longer SuperRotator models are not available. I presume once the 45mm SuperRotators have been sold, that's it. Hence the need for the Zeiss lens modules. Unless the Arsenal lens factory has not actually closed or if someone else is making the lenses.)

As for the benefits of any special coating - I still have a 35mm PC Nikkor that has an old coating - not super-multicoated. I use it all the time and it is great. I had Zeiss Hasselblad lenses before they came out with the TStar coating and later I had TStar versions of the same lenses on my Rollei. I didn't see much difference plus the lens price did not jump when the TStar coating came out.  

Regarding the new Hartblei lenses with the Zeiss modules - what is the image circle of each lens and how much movement would there be on a Mamiya using a 36x48mm back?  Or are these lenses just for use on 35mm cameras?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:47:44 PM by AlanG » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2009, 03:41:47 PM »
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No Problem- we have dealers all over Germany , they all have demolenses. This is exactly what I say from the beginning.
So I really wonder why people preferre to talk about adam and eve instead of taking a look by themselves.
anyone is free to contact me s.steib@hartblei.de and incase he has a problem getting a lens we will arrange something.

greetings from Munich
Stefan


Quote from: eronald
I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that  we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.

Edmund
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« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2009, 04:32:16 PM »
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It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.

Stefan

Quote from: ynp
Stefan,

May I ask you a question?

Is the P1 Superrotator for Phamiya still a combination of pretty old Ukrainian or Lytkarino (Moscow Region) Glass and your excellent German  mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,etc?
     

Thank you,
Yevgeny
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carstenw
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« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that  we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.

Edmund

That is very nice of you to say (do you really mean that, or was it a joke?), but although I have a critical mind (*cough*), I am no pro photographer. I am happy with my photography, but I don't measure up to half of the people around here. I currently own both Hasselblad V and Contax 645, but no digital back yet, so I cannot even test properly. I don't know half the photographers around here, but two people whose judgement I would trust are Jack Flesher and Tim Ashley, both of whom I have observed and conversed with over time, and know to be fair and balanced, and good photographers to boot. They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.

Of course, if anyone could get Rainer Viertlböck to test one, the issue could be closed once and for all. He is a top-notch architectural photographer, one of the very best, and is also very fair, as far as I can see. But I don't know if he still has a camera it would fit on.

I would never choose someone opiniated and loud-mouthed like me

However, I think the idea is good. If someone on this board could get ahold of one and test it properly, we could all benefit from the knowledge.

Stefan, I think I missed this, but someone pointed out to me in private that you believe that the lens Peter tested was flawed? That would probably make a lot of people feel better about the lens than the semi-denial which I have perceived. Every superb lens has the occasional bad copy, but if the company works with the customers until they get a good one, then reservations evaporate.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:51:59 PM by carstenw » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2009, 04:45:35 PM »
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Alan

Our Zeiss lenses are 35mm exclusively! Just imagine where there was the Blads mirror there is our TS Mechanism now.
There is just on exception: Alpa,Sylvestri and Sinarcam "Framecameras" with DSLR mounts can use our lenses very nicely.
Infact I have one customer - Arnold Debus-featured on our website-> Customers who does most of the BMW Motocycles here in Munich.
He uses a Sinarcam and a multishot Sinarback with our full kit and he is very happy with shift and Tilt though he uses the large chip.
Actually all the blad lenses from Zeiss hav close to 90mm Imagecircle- their MTF´s are all up to 40mm height,
the 35mm Full Format Dslr´s use only about a max of 65mm even with a combination of Shift and tilt from this,
 so we move exclusively in the sweetspot of the lenses.
There is only one limit, with the Nikon F mount the 120mm at full closeup (1:4) and full shift AND tilt will have vignetting from the bajonett, the Canon version doesn´t.

About the lenses availability : now you got the point. We have some stock, if those are gone it´s over ! With Carl Zeiss we are very happy to have such a nice and valuable replacement/improvement for the russian versions.
Also remember the Phase One press release about our Cooperation and this is the first lens that we will do together.....
We are also already talking with Mamiya for the 28mm/645 lenskit, first sample is in Kiev already, which we will use for our new wideangle. (late autumn!)

Stefan


Quote from: AlanG
Well my 55mm Arsat Shift lens is quite good, very well made, with a smooth and precise shifting mechanism. And it cost about $350 if I recall.

Here are shift and tilt options from Zoerk.

http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf

I called Kiev USA who also used to sell the various shift lenses and Hartblei SuperRotators. I do not know if this is true but they told me that the Kiev Camera and Arsenal lens plants have shut down.  They believe that Hartblei bought up many of the remaining lenses for use in their SuperRotator mounts. So if true, this could explain the price jump and why the 55mm and longer SuperRotator models are not available. I presume once the 45mm SuperRotators have been sold, that's it. Hence the need for the Zeiss lens modules. Unless the Arsenal lens factory has not actually closed or if someone else is making the lenses.)

As for the benefits of any special coating - I still have a 35mm PC Nikkor that has an old coating - not super-multicoated. I use it all the time and it is great. I had Zeiss Hasselblad lenses before they came out with the TStar coating and later I had TStar versions of the same lenses on my Rollei. I didn't see much difference plus the lens price did not jump when the TStar coating came out.  

Regarding the new Hartblei lenses with the Zeiss modules - what is the image circle of each lens and how much movement would there be on a Mamiya using a 36x48mm back?  Or are these lenses just for use on 35mm cameras?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 04:47:46 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2009, 04:50:09 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.

Stefan


Stefan,

Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?

thx.

B
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bcooter
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« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2009, 04:50:39 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.

Stefan


Stefan,

Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?

thx.

B
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gwhitf
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« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2009, 05:08:13 PM »
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I owned and used the 45mm Tilt Shift Hartblei for 645. I had it mounted onto the Contax 645. I also owned and used the rarish 65mm Hartblei for Contax 645. I guess it all depends how a person uses a lens, and how quickly they need it to move, and how intuitive it is in their hands.

Before that, I owned and used all three Canon T/S lenses, and in actual shooting -- (No MTF charts here, folks -- actual photography for money, under pressure) -- I found the Hartbleis to be very awkward to use, and very slow to move into position, compared to the incredibly easy to use Canons. The first time I used the 45, honestly, the first thought I had was, "You've got to be kidding me".

My suggestion for anyone considering these lipsticked Hartbleis is to make damn sure you have a No Questions Asked return policy. I'm sure, under ideal conditions, in a 72 degree climate controlled studio with iTunes running in the background, a person might say that the Hartbleis are just fine. But I just found that, with that dark viewfinder in the Contax 645, and with the max Fstop of the Hartbleis, they were VERY hard to focus, even not tilted or shifted. (Remember too -- it's Manual Focus only).

And then, you're out their at sunrise or sunset, trying to twist those things into some kind of "creative" position, and then the depth of field is inches, and then the dark Contax viewfinder -- well, it was not ideal at all.

So just be forewarned -- especially at these new price tags that they're asking. Make sure it works for you, BEFORE the check clears.

Just one opinion.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 05:10:42 PM by gwhitf » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2009, 05:16:49 PM »
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Carsten

I will check back with Digitalstore Vienna what happened there. If necessary I will have sent the lens back to me to munich and we will test it.

I will send a test 4/120mmMakro sample to DPreview.com mid April, and also Diglloyd.com will get a complete set. If this is calming you guys down, I think especially Lloyd is very carefully in about what we writes.
Maybe when the lenses are in California anyway, also Michael Reichmann could get them for a while.

I know the lenses are difficult to use if you are not really looking into it. I do not make anybody any reproaches, as I know it needs a little until you get the feeling in your fingertips about how the superrotators tick.
But once you get it, it´s like riding a bike, not much different from back then in old times when I used my zProfia8/10" blind and knew exactly how it bent down with which lens or what tilt to use for which angle.

I can only say I can flatten people with the output from these lenses now, I still have to use a D3x but I´m already quite speechless sometimes when I open stuff in Aperture from my 5DII.
If I remember back to my Leaf DCB´s or my Dicomed Bigshot, this is now way beyond what the 3xBigshot was offering for 100000 bucks so it´s so nice how technology evolves.

Stefan

Quote from: carstenw
That is very nice of you to say (do you really mean that, or was it a joke?), but although I have a critical mind (*cough*), I am no pro photographer. I am happy with my photography, but I don't measure up to half of the people around here. I currently own both Hasselblad V and Contax 645, but no digital back yet, so I cannot even test properly. I don't know half the photographers around here, but two people whose judgement I would trust are Jack Flesher and Tim Ashley, both of whom I have observed and conversed with over time, and know to be fair and balanced, and good photographers to boot. They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.

Of course, if anyone could get Rainer Viertlböck to test one, the issue could be closed once and for all. He is a top-notch architectural photographer, one of the very best, and is also very fair, as far as I can see. But I don't know if he still has a camera it would fit on.

I would never choose someone opiniated and loud-mouthed like me

However, I think the idea is good. If someone on this board could get ahold of one and test it properly, we could all benefit from the knowledge.

Stefan, I think I missed this, but someone pointed out to me in private that you believe that the lens Peter tested was flawed? That would probably make a lot of people feel better about the lens than the semi-denial which I have perceived. Every superb lens has the occasional bad copy, but if the company works with the customers until they get a good one, then reservations evaporate.
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« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2009, 05:20:21 PM »
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B

we are short on lenses, there is a backorder already from Phase One and we have to fulfill the Phase Customers first, but we had spoken with Espen Beck/PhaseOne
that later on, if demand for Contax is definitely materializing in orders we could also make some for Contax. But these also would be sold through Phase One.

Stefan

Quote from: bcooter
Stefan,

Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?

thx.

B
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« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2009, 05:29:43 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
B

we are short on lenses, there is a backorder already from Phase One and we have to fulfill the Phase Customers first, but we had spoken with Espen Beck/PhaseOne
that later on, if demand for Contax is definitely materializing in orders we could also make some for Contax. But these also would be sold through Phase One.

Stefan


Stefan,

I appreciate the response and  maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think Phase would have about as much desire to see the Contax system evolve as Obama would enjoy seeing Bush join his cabinet as Secretary Of State.

Now one semi-serious question. I have the 45mm super rotator on a Contax and it's now as stiff as a board, hasn't taken any hits, or any rough abuse.

Where do I get this serviced?

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« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2009, 05:33:15 PM »
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Stefan,
Thank you.
I asked our Phase one dealer about the origin of the glass and they claimed it was Europian. Nothing wrong with the USSR glass, the military did the same kind of selection you do now and usualy they were able to select one of ten; the rest went to the public.
Yevgeny
Quote from: Stefan.Steib
It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.

Stefan
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« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2009, 05:46:38 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.

I think you mean me, Alan Goldstein.  If so, thanks for the recommendation. I have the Canon 24 and 45 TSE lenses as well as the older Nikon 35 and 28 PC lenses, plus the Arsat 55 shift and an Arsat 80 tilt/shift.  I'm planning to get the new Canon 17 and 24 TSEs once they are available and this should be the ultimate solution for my wide angle tilt shift work.  (I rarely tilt the 24 because the depth of field is so great it may just look a bit unfocused in areas rather than having a strong effect.) I have to say that the longer tilt shift lenses would mostly appeal to a still life shooter. Once you get lenses that are longer than 50mm or so, there are various kinds of solutions available for tilt and shift on 35mm. I am pretty familiar with using the Zeiss MF glass on 6x6 but don't know how ell that translates to the smaller format. And for selective focus effects there is the Lens Baby and various devices that let you tilt a lens father than the tilts on Canon, Nikon or the Hartblei lenses.

With the SuperRotators and shift lenses that were made using lenses that had a big enough circle to shift on 6x6 - 45mm, 55mm,65mm, others? the mounts could have been made with a lot more shifting capability for use on 35mm.  I don't know the image circle of the new models, but I see that the Hartblei Zeiss 40 can shift only 10 mm, which is ok but nothing amazing.  But the glass in the original 45mm SuperRotator looks like it makes an image circle that would have allowed about a 20+mm shift on 35mm. The same concept could apply to the tilt. I don't know if they didn't think of this because it was originally designed for 6x6, or due to difficulty making a mount that can do this.  

The Zoerk shift adapter has a 20mm range so you could mount wide angle and longer Mamiya and other lenses on it for more shift than you get with the Hartblei Zeiss designs.  And you could also buy used Hassy Zeiss 40, 50, 80, 120 etc. lenses pretty cheaply for the Zoerk adapters and get a greater range fo tilt and shift if the lenses will cover enough. Pentax 6x7 lenses will work on it too and you could probably adapt various enlarging lenses and view camera lenses as long as they are not too short a focal length.

It isn't a bad idea to have the tripod mechanism on the lens so the optical axis stays in place when shifting for panos.  But I use a sliding adapter on the camera body to recenter the lens after shifting.  In any case, I have totally abandoned this technique as I find I get much better results using a pano head and stitching via Autopano to a Planar image.  This technique uses the center of the lens so it maximizes image quality and exposure evenness.  And I can get wider images with more resolution as the camera is mounted vertically for horizontal panos. And if I have to shoot so wide that I'm forced into a cylindrical pano, that can often be corrected fairly well in CS4 via the warp too.  You have to stitch with either method so I prefer the additional versatility of a panohead.  

I have also found that it is not a good idea to use any shift on a lens if I am shooting images for Planar assembly in Autopano. For some reason that I don't fully understand, when I do that, the horizon has an weird wedged result.  It is better to simply tilt up, shoot the pano and then correct the verticals in Autopano. (Plus you can get incredibly wide angle this way.)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 07:35:22 PM by AlanG » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2009, 05:56:08 PM »
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You can send it to us, we have a servicespecialist here in Germany who is knowing all about the old 45mm superrotator.

Stefan

Quote from: bcooter
Stefan,

I appreciate the response and  maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think Phase would have about as much desire to see the Contax system evolve as Obama would enjoy seeing Bush join his cabinet as Secretary Of State.

Now one semi-serious question. I have the 45mm super rotator on a Contax and it's now as stiff as a board, hasn't taken any hits, or any rough abuse.

Where do I get this serviced?
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« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2009, 06:25:13 PM »
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Quote from: Stefan.Steib
Dear Mr. Markowich

I have used an MTF Measurement device for my numbers, this is probably as scientific as it can be.
A testtable is the wrong test for this lens. And all of these highend Bodies now offer LiveVideo zoomed focus.
It is simply very difficult to focus right with a highend lens and a highend(over 20mp) body.
For tests I use only a 15 kg Benbo MK5 , Novoflex heads, a TC80N release and Mirror up for my 5DII and all the best stuff I can get to
get sharp images, then I focus series with a focusing rail (Novoflex Castel Cross Q) and then I know I will get a nice and sharp one.
But this is no different to what was needed for an 8x10 " so I feel at home there.

If somebody does not believe this here is a link to a rawfile Canon 1 DsII shot with the Hartblei 4/40mmIF.

http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2

try to do this with another lens and then we talk.

greetings from Munich

Awesome!  Beautiful sharpness at full size.
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« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2009, 06:47:50 PM »
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Quote from: AlanG
I think you mean me, Alan Goldstein.

Argh, yes, sorry Alan, I should have checked after all. On LUF it is easier
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2009, 05:52:05 AM »
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the 35mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS

are identical optically to the Zeiss lenses
Distagon T* 4/40 IF/CFE
Planar T* 2,8/80 CFE
Makro-Planar T* 4/120 CFE
for Hasselblad

and
Distagon 4/40 FLE HFT PQ
Planar Rollei 2,8/80 HFT PQS
Makro-Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
for Rollei 6000.

so the Hartblei lenses can not be cheaper than the german Zeiss 6x6 lenses.
they may have to be more expensive because of the "superrotator" construction, and because the 6x6 lenses once have been mass produced in high numbers.

the Zeiss optics have an image circle for 56mmx56mm negative, so shifted or tilted they are not suitable for medium format.
this was the reason for the PC mutar for the Hasselblad 500.
optical performance of these Hartblei lenses will be identical to the Hasselblad or Rollei lenses.
photographing a test card in 2 m distance might not reflect the true performance of an optical system calculated for focus at 10 m.

the Hartblei lens for medium format
"phase one 45mm 3.5 TS"
is not a Zeiss optic, so it might be on a different quality level.
i have not seen the phase one lens yet. it will be distributed through phase one dealers exclusively.

the 35 mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS
can be touched, tested, rented, and bought in professional photo stores. at least that is the case in munich.

regards
arno al doori
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