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Author Topic: IF I ONLY BOUGHT IT A YEAR LATER  (Read 18429 times)
AndreNapier
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« on: April 06, 2009, 12:02:31 AM »
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
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R_Medvid
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 01:01:00 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
...
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
...
Andre

My losses are not that grand, but I feel the same way.  
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Roman Medvid
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 01:12:03 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre

Andre, you are the first working professional whom I'm aware of who has posted such a frank and sincere statement.  I applaud you for that.  I have tried to find posts from pros justifying equipment purchases but have only found people saying that such and such a MFDB is so good and that they recovered their investment in just a few months etc etc.   Thanks for the honesty and I wish you good luck in your business.

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feppe
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 02:00:41 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre

I'm glad a pro has done the numbers and reported his findings - your experience confirms my suspicions. I've been wondering about this for a while from the pro POV: is the difference between, say, Phase One P45+ and P65+ enough to justify the price difference? Of course it boils down to individual photographer. But from what I've read here it almost always is argued with "I need it to be at the cutting edge" or "the difference is visible (in big prints)". There's never a hard, financial justification for it. But if your livelihood depends on it, there should.

I work in corporate finance in non-photographic industry, so I do ROI calculations on a daily basis, and this shocks me. If you're a pro and run your own business, it would behoove you to do the math. When we're talking about investments in the tens of thousands of dollars, the investments need to provide good Return On Investment (ROI) or Economic Value Added (EVA).

What is also easy to overlook is the opportunity cost. Say, upgrading from P45+ to P65+ costs 10k (might be much more, I don't know). You can either upgrade, or spend that 10k on a photo safari in Africa, or pay for a studio assistant's salary for three-four months. And you save the leasing costs. Will the safari or assistant provide more value to you in the short/medium/long term than investing in the back upgrade?

What I'm getting at is you have to determine where you should invest your money to get the highest ROI or EVA. Instead of making that decision with emotions, it should be made as a businessman. Sure, these factors are difficult to quantify. But you need to take a close and hard look at your business, what your clients want and need, and what's the best place to spend your money.
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archivue
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 03:02:29 AM »
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but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?

While quality wise for my market a 5D Mark II can be enought... i find that it takes lot more time to process the files from a canon (for architecture) than from a clean MFD and distorsion free lenses...
And time is money !

But in most cases, no needs to change camera every year... except to make shure that you have a stronger ... than your neighbourg...
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rethmeier
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 03:15:19 AM »
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Quote from: archivue
but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?

While quality wise for my market a 5D Mark II can be enought... i find that it takes lot more time to process the files from a canon (for architecture) than from a clean MFD and distorsion free lenses...
And time is money !

But in most cases, no needs to change camera every year... except to make shure that you have a stronger ... than your neighbourg...

Please,
no pros pay for film,process and scan!
It's all billed to the client with a loaded invoice.
End of story,
Best,
Willem.
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k bennett
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 06:37:27 AM »
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Quote from: archivue
but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?


That's not the point. He's still shooting with MF digital either way.

The point is that buying the latest-greatest equipment as soon as it comes out is *very* expensive compared with buying that *same equipment* a year later.
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Geoffrey
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 06:44:11 AM »
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Andre -

You are right - and its rather upsetting. A few thoughts:

- are you sure about that demo on Ebay? I think it was a misnomer,and probably went for the $17900. Maybe you are only out $100k.

- the change from cameras as mechanical instruments to electronic apparatus is part of this. Mechanical (analog) upgrades and new models always had a price premium, but it was fairly modest. They kept their residual value, and the relationship of new prices to old product had some rationale.

In the digital arena, research expense, software writing, cost of small scale production carrying heavy upfront costs move to the forefront, and the costing cycle is very much revised. Those professional photographers working at the "bleeding edge" have had to bear the brunt of this, rationalized only by a working business model that says "this still pays off for me...", and that the cost of the camera/back is not what is important.

Those of us who are enthusiasts more than professionals live off the edges of this, working with 1, 2, and even 3 year old products. The depreciation or price reductions can be rather steep in that first year.  

Sorry for the ramble, and I only hope you've got some good use out of your gear. It should last you a long time (one hopes!).

Geoff
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Dustbak
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 06:44:57 AM »
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Which is a true statement. It is a bit like cars. You buy a new one today and you pay for it like for a house. Sell it next year and you receive less than for the garage.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 07:03:39 AM »
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Andre, I can really sympathize but it is no secret that cameras are depreciating assets! If you *needed* the camera when you bought it then you got an extra year's use out of it. I have to ask, if you could have waited a year then did you *need* it at all? Perhaps the financial payback wasn't there for you on this occasion but for some people, offering more resolution means more business and an advantage over competitors or perhaps results that they could not have achieved otherwise (e.g. fine art projects). It's not the same for everyone.
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Kumar
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 07:16:16 AM »
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Generally, one buys new equipment:
I. to replace old equipment which has been amortized, and/or is past its useful life.
II. with the hope and expectation that the new equipment results in a technological/cost advantage, which is realized by:
a. Cheaper cost of production - better, faster workflow, less wastage
b. Marketing advantage/first mover advantage/bragging rights, whatever one chooses to call it.

The accepted idea is to use the new equipment to make more money than could have been made with the old.
If Andre had waited, yes, he would have saved $105K. BUT, during that period, would he have been able to earn the same or greater amount of money with the old equipment?

Hindsight is a very good thing

Cheers,
Kumar
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 07:34:26 AM »
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It is interesting how I clicked the "MAKE PAYMENT" link last night, this morning while having my latte coffee go to The LL forum thinking about the return of my PhaseOne investment to read Andre's post.

You can probably make more than $100k reading minds, because you saw what I was thinking ...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:35:53 AM by Leonardo Barreto » Logged

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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 08:11:41 AM »
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Like anything else go buy a brand new car drive it off the lot and stick a price tag on it. Guarantee you lost about 5 grand driving it one mile. Unfortunately this happens with many things in life . I also think you need to look at your system as a 3 year purchase and not a one year. What a 100 K investment is than is 33 k each year and that against the revenue you make from it. Plus what it is worth at the end of 3 years , okay maybe not much but if your making the ROI on it that not a big issue. What has happened recently comes very rare and that is a very deep recession that not many folks counted on and it hurt the prices on MF and also hurt the revenue you can draw shooting. Frankly it just sucks out here and either you hold on or close the doors. We are all in the same situation with our gear and our revenue. WE are all banging our head against the wall. Sad but true
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gwhitf
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 09:12:19 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre

There is nothing wrong with sensible spending, even in good times. I am finding that out too. But I do not fault you -- you are a passionate guy, who's come into this business from another business, and you're on fire to learn and to explore, and you simply want the best tool to convey your vision. Nothing wrong with that.

Let's also not overlook the fact that, once a person gets that right tool is in your hands, and you start jamming, there is money to be made. Life is short, and you want to find the right tool. So let's not overlook the fact that that $105k could be balanced out by income too, once you got into your groove.

What continually blows my mind here are the guys that write checks for $30k, when it's not even their main business. I must be doing something wrong, to not have that disposable income.

Keep your head up. You'll be fine. You're hungry, and you want the best. But I do understand about not being the Beta Tester for these companies any longer. That is my motto too -- buy one or two notches behind the curve, and buy UsedMint whenever possible. My entire PhaseHassie system was bought used mint. Let somebody else discover the centerfold on the A75; let somebody else see if the P65 is working properly; let somebody else discover the mirror slap in the H1; let somebody else watch CaptureOne 4 crash in the middle of a paying job.

Regards to your family.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 09:27:28 AM by gwhitf » Logged
paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 09:14:44 AM »
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well this idiot did the new truck thing last year just before it all hit the fan... 50g.. thought that I needed a new one,etc.. I have 6500miles on it and I am really trying to sell it now for 34g.. and have not had any takers.....hindsight makes clear I should have settled for a 2-3year old one..for at least half... ..the key to all of this is know what you need and what you don't.  Some folks need the assurance of new gear..others are fine with the risk of used.
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ddk
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 09:17:13 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre


Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.
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david
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paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 09:24:16 AM »
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Quote from: rethmeier
Please,
no pros pay for film,process and scan!
It's all billed to the client with a loaded invoice.
End of story,
Best,
Willem.

I agree! and none of use should be paying for the digital back.. I moaned and groaned about buying my first one but after 3 years my billing had
it covered.. as well as depreciated on taxes..but this only works if you are working..and billing for what you should be billing for.
I would bet that a higher percentage mfdb guys charge for the back and capture fees than do canon only shooters...and with more and more shooters going that direction it is only making it tougher for those who bill for all of their expenses... it takes some 'nads to stick to your guns.

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Snook
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 09:36:05 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre


Don't hold your breath as the market (Realestate) aint getting better any time soon.
As long as guys keep paying big $$$ for MFDB's the companies will keep ripping us off.
I would NEVER myself buy any MFDB new. Just like I would not buy a NEW car. Drive it off the lot and it is worth many $$$$ LESS. That is known to come with new car sells.
I bought my P30 used with cameras and got a pretty good deal and even so those prices dropped Heavily after my purchase.
Also about 2 months before the crisis started I posted a thread asking how many have been affected by the crisis so far and a lot of guys jumped in saying what crisis like smart asses. Now they know what I was talking about.
I hear in New York you can hear a Pin drop. Nothing really going on there. Just a bunch of Big photographers with BIG expenses who will be going down the pipes really fast as New York is not cheap!!!

Luckily where I live things have picked up a little and thank gosh we rely more on China than the US as China is supposed Kicking ass right now...:+}

I feel for you and agree when the $$$ is rolling in we get a little high and pay what ever thinking it will keep rolling in.
Not anymore. Every one of my purchases have been well thought out after the crisis started for us here about in September 2008.

I can garantee you my MF days are over. Unless they come out with something in the 30-50 megapixel range, which is still over kill (for my work) and has leaf shutter lens', big LCD screen and Light weight and under 10,000us$. Forget it!
There nothing that cannot be done with the current 5DII if you ask me. and it cost 2600.00

Argue it all you want but if your not printing HUGE there is NO difference, period! all the rest is Rep hype BS.
Like the current P60 BS if you ask me. WHo the hell is going to pay that much in these times for some that looks like the original back from the 90's?Huh
It is all marketing BS which I admit I do the same making SHITTY clothing look good by using good light and pretty models....

Sounds like you bought a lot of stuff like a lot of us with out thinking if you "really" needed it or "wanted it... that is the great part of life.
Do you need it or want it.
A can garantee you do not "need" much.

This crisis is good in one way, for me atleast. It has made me re think a lot of things and also opened my mind to other aspects of photography.
I think it was einstein? who said that crisis brings growth and forces people to be more creative with new ideas.

These Big Back manufacturers have been pulling the wool over your eyes for a long time!!!

Snook
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 09:40:30 AM by Snook » Logged
Snook
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 09:45:25 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.


This is absolutely BS what you say.
They saved their asses from the Backs being worth even less around the immediate corner.
The ONLY people to blame for the MFDB prices is the dealers themselves!
I was thinking of doing the same. Selling off before it was really worth close to nothing... But decided to keep all in the end as it was too much of a LOSS!!!
I will shoot with my P30 until it dies and use my canons for everything else I need to.
Have you seen the sales here and on ebay lately. seems A LOT are doing the same after the 5DII and D3X came out.

Calumet did the right thing. they did not want to sit on the shit and have it worth NOTHING sooner rather than later.
Plus some lucky bastards got some really good deals..:+]
Snook

PS> The same is going to happen to phase really soon I hate to say it. No way they are going to sell the P65 at the current price range, and if so it will be by custom orders where they build SOLD units only as back up to the Leica S2's the same guys have bought...:+}


« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 09:49:11 AM by Snook » Logged
Kumar
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 10:08:03 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.

SinarBron, Sinar's distributor in the USA also moved a lot of stuff on eBay. So why wouldn't Calumet??
http://myworld.ebay.com/sinarbron&ssPa...:MEFSX:SELLERID

Kumar
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