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Author Topic: IF I ONLY BOUGHT IT A YEAR LATER  (Read 18265 times)
Nemo
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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2009, 07:38:15 AM »
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Kevin, maybe there was a divergence in prices and a convergence in results (the final file) with this digital era... 35mm digital seems to be much better than 35mm color film used to be...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 10:04:06 AM by Nemo » Logged
Willow Photography
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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2009, 08:53:05 AM »
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Quote from: KevinA
In 2007 I was so close to going over to MF I did not make the leap, a month or two ago I started the process again. The thing is I just ask myself "who am I doing this for, me or the client" it's always me I would not earn a penny more from shooting MF, no one has ever complained about the Canon images (other than me), I like MF for many reasons. For me the cost just does not stack up, I would be stroking my own ego if I bought a MF system.
In fact of late looking around the Olympus system has some fantastic lenses, sharp and fast, 12mp corner to corner sharp is more use to me than 16mp/22mp fuzzy. When do I or my clients need 30mp or more of MF? very seldom and when they do I have upsized without a hint of complaint.
Sure MF delivers better files, I do wonder how many clients know, bother or care that they are better, with the money in the world as tight as it is less and less ends up in print and more is done on the net. Give it a year or two and I'll only need a decent camera on my mobile phone.

Kevin.


Well I rather spend $20.000 on a MFDB because I love the result, even if the customers dont see it,
than spend the same amount on a fancy car.    


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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2009, 09:56:19 AM »
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You should try coming to Ireland where over 40% of architects are now unemployed. I work as an architectural and landscape photographer and I work for architects and I have to cook all the time for my girlfriend cos she's a crap cook and I value my intestine too much.  All I can say is thank God I'm juggling a lot of balls. Not good for my sanity though.        

Quote from: Snook
I think EPd is some 13 year little kid who just seems to talk OHA .
No cell phone and No website and No time must get him tons of work...:+}
I know it is the Tea.
And I was not talking about the economy or work. I too have been pretty busy for the last 2-3 months and future jobs look pretty good considering you all are in a crisis. There was just a month or 2 where everyone kind of froze and did not want to do anything. Now things are swinging around as we do not rely very much on the USA., I am talking about no one in my area charges day fees and then adds a huge list of rental equipment like many do in other countries. Specially in New York.
My prices are above standard rates where I live, But I do not charge in my Budgets.. Item #5 ... Digital Back $$$$. The client knows my work and expects me to have professional equipment.
The problem is that since I have acquired a MFDB my prices have not gone up, which the client would not pay for anyways. They figure it is my option to shoot with a 2500.00 5DII a 7,000.00 1DsMIII or a 14,000.00 DB or a 40,000.00 DB.
That was my point.
I go up against other photographers who have invested also alot and others who have not. We charge more or less what the market dictates...
I do a lot of my own productions and try an filter in stuff here and there, but people here lose jobs of 10K-20k for 200.00. That is just the way it is where I live and I am sure in many areas.
Yeh if you Mario Testino or Annie Leibowitz I am sure you can charge what ever the hell you want... And then end up bankrupt anyways...:+}
Hope that is clearer for many.


Snook
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Dansk
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« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2009, 11:05:14 AM »
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 I certainly didnt mean to derail the OP here by starting another pointless debate about DSLR vs medium format so lets put this one to bed right here and get back on track. I have mfdb and use them. There are certain subjects that I prefer shooting with square format and MF also allows me to do things with the glass that as of YET I cant replicate with DSLR so there are very valid creative advantages. The entire point was to suggest that the creative ability is what matters most nowadays not the camera equipment used and not so much the MP size of your system. Besides since when does size matter anyways?....  

 Depreciation is a fact of life for any equipment whether it be resale value or lifespan ( as in it just wears out ). I buy whatever tools are nec for whatever job that requires them. I often find some internal debate about gear and I'm fairly active in acquiring and selling of it depending on the campaigns and clients I feel will offer the most volume of work each year. I try to stay as lean and mean as I can to avoid having valuable gear sit and collect dust depreciating away but its not easy and Andre I completely understand your frustration.

  I suppose all in all financially speaking everyone gets their neck stuck out at certain times further than they want it to be, and combine that timing with a market downturn such as now and it can lead to imminent disaster such as Liebovitz that one still has me guffawed. Goes to show its not what you make its what you spend. As for market timing? Haha yeah... Clearly no one really has a clue about when that goes awry or not. Unless you believe that Obama conspiracy movie. Well produced and certainly entertaining to watch but its Looooong heres a link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw


Anyways back on point theres no guarantees on anything these days heck even GM is looking like they are going to file for protection. My philosophy? Why worry? No one gets out of this game alive  

Tea? Wheres my Pyrenees Ridge Reserve Shiraz?  

Cheers fellas.

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cjmonty
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« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2009, 12:21:17 PM »
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I recently spent a lot (although a lot less than I could have) after bargaining down a dealer on a refurb P45.  Altogether with a Phase Camera Kit it was less than twice what a Nikon D3X or Canon 1DsMkIII costs (which I sold for 1/2 what I bought it for one year after purchase).  In the three years since I moved from LF to digital, I have lost a lot of $ on depreciation and finding out I personally can't use the Canon system worth a damn.  Here are a few thoughts I have from the experience:

Medium Formal is probably worth it if you:

1-Are rich or make money hand over fist- buy new and enjoy!
2-If not rich or super lucrative, buy used or refurb, and don't be shy about the haggle. These dealers would rather sell an old back then wait for the next whale to walk through the door.
4-Want flexibility of use: like say by using a viewcamera, or a "plate" camera, or a homemade thing you machined in your garage.
5-Want your CAMERA to have shelf life beyond your sensor, and not just your lenses.  I am actually pretty happy with the Phamiya and Mamiya glass, and imagine upgrading the back before the camera.
6-Like to take your time (or can afford to take your time) on jobs or making pictures in general.  You can take Canon with a wide autofocus on the most demanding Architecture job, shoot a bazillion frames from all angles, and make passable work after having your assistant spend the weekend stitching and HDRing countless files.  Or you can take a MFDB and a shifting camera, take twice the time and a tenth of the exposures, and have everything almost finished in camera, and totally finished in Capture One by the end of the day.  Also you are more likely to get that beautifully simple easy-to-overlook shot.
7-  If you Print big.  Period.  Ive spent a lot of time trying to make a triple stitch from a 21MP 35mm camera look like a clean LF exposure, and it just aint the same thing.  It is different and easier and maybe better.  But not the same thing.  My outdated (and very ISO limited) P45 39Mp sensor just draws an image with a clarity that I havent seen with a Canon or Nikon.
8- Can't Stand the 2:3 ratio and wonder who the hell ever came up with it.  Very simply, I don't make prints in a 2:3 ratio, therefore with the Canon I either had to crop or stitch.  This is a particular and nitpicky bugaboo, but hey, we've all got problems.

Do not go MFDB if:

1-You want lowlight capability, at least until the P65+ comes down to a reasonable price point.  But by then Canons and Sonys and Nikons will be able to shoot in pitch black and see through walls, so you still dont want to mess with the finicky DBs.
2-Size Doesnt Matter.  Of the print, I mean.
3-You want speed, and the ability to get that impossible-to-catch shot.  I pity the sports photographer that ever brings a Phase kit to shoot a tennis match.  Or to his kids soccer game.
4-You are cheap.  I'm actually pretty cheap.  But I needed what the DB could give me, and didnt need the good stuff from Canon.  However, the Canons of this world will ALWAYS have some hi-end product that will give ya a little more for your buck then Hassy Leaf or Phase are willing to give, pound for pound.  Its simple economics and the higher competition & volume in the larger 35mm DSLR world.

These are just my opinions after giving Mr. B and Mr. H way too much of my money.  Hope it helps.

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2009, 02:22:59 PM »
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Yair,

Thanks for good explanation!

Erik

Quote from: yaya
Hi Erik please note that Point & Shoot cameras use Interline CCD technology which is different to Full-Frame technology used in digital backs. Interline CCDs were originally created for video cameras whereas Full-Frame CCDs were made for stills imaging.

Thanks

Yair
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pss
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« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2009, 02:49:18 PM »
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i did not get into DMF because it was cool or i needed to spend a lot of money....i simply wanted a certain level of quality in my files and in my work....i just did not like what i saw from anything else.....
i got out of DMF when i got that quality from DSLR and really appreciate the handling....
another thing was the price i would have had to pay to upgrade from a P30 to a P30+...that was when they just lost me....
i guess it would be the same as trying to raise your fee shot by shot and wondering why one day nobody calls anymore....
you cannot have this discussion with comparing DSLR to DMF....because it just isn't the case that all people are blind all of a sudden, or that people don't want to spend money anymore or that i (or my clients) don't know what a good file is....
it comes down to the fact that if today's DSLRs would have been available 2 years ago, a lot of people would never have gotten into DMF in the first place....a 5DII would have sold like crazy for 7000 2 years ago....but of course that is a mute point....
everybody who bought a DMF knew why they bought it...for the quality and because there was no other solution....now it has changed....
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ziocan
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« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2009, 07:26:20 PM »
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Quote from: cjmonty
I recently spent a lot (although a lot less than I could have) after bargaining down a dealer on a refurb P45.  Altogether with a Phase Camera Kit it was less than twice what a Nikon D3X or Canon 1DsMkIII costs (which I sold for 1/2 what I bought it for one year after purchase).  In the three years since I moved from LF to digital, I have lost a lot of $ on depreciation and finding out I personally can't use the Canon system worth a damn.  Here are a few thoughts I have from the experience:

Medium Formal is probably worth it if you:

1-Are rich or make money hand over fist- buy new and enjoy!
2-If not rich or super lucrative, buy used or refurb, and don't be shy about the haggle. These dealers would rather sell an old back then wait for the next whale to walk through the door.
4-Want flexibility of use: like say by using a viewcamera, or a "plate" camera, or a homemade thing you machined in your garage.
5-Want your CAMERA to have shelf life beyond your sensor, and not just your lenses.  I am actually pretty happy with the Phamiya and Mamiya glass, and imagine upgrading the back before the camera.
6-Like to take your time (or can afford to take your time) on jobs or making pictures in general.  You can take Canon with a wide autofocus on the most demanding Architecture job, shoot a bazillion frames from all angles, and make passable work after having your assistant spend the weekend stitching and HDRing countless files.  Or you can take a MFDB and a shifting camera, take twice the time and a tenth of the exposures, and have everything almost finished in camera, and totally finished in Capture One by the end of the day.  Also you are more likely to get that beautifully simple easy-to-overlook shot.
7-  If you Print big.  Period.  Ive spent a lot of time trying to make a triple stitch from a 21MP 35mm camera look like a clean LF exposure, and it just aint the same thing.  It is different and easier and maybe better.  But not the same thing.  My outdated (and very ISO limited) P45 39Mp sensor just draws an image with a clarity that I havent seen with a Canon or Nikon.
8- Can't Stand the 2:3 ratio and wonder who the hell ever came up with it.  Very simply, I don't make prints in a 2:3 ratio, therefore with the Canon I either had to crop or stitch.  This is a particular and nitpicky bugaboo, but hey, we've all got problems.

Do not go MFDB if:

1-You want lowlight capability, at least until the P65+ comes down to a reasonable price point.  But by then Canons and Sonys and Nikons will be able to shoot in pitch black and see through walls, so you still dont want to mess with the finicky DBs.
2-Size Doesnt Matter.  Of the print, I mean.
3-You want speed, and the ability to get that impossible-to-catch shot.  I pity the sports photographer that ever brings a Phase kit to shoot a tennis match.  Or to his kids soccer game.
4-You are cheap.  I'm actually pretty cheap.  But I needed what the DB could give me, and didnt need the good stuff from Canon.  However, the Canons of this world will ALWAYS have some hi-end product that will give ya a little more for your buck then Hassy Leaf or Phase are willing to give, pound for pound.  Its simple economics and the higher competition & volume in the larger 35mm DSLR world.

These are just my opinions after giving Mr. B and Mr. H way too much of my money.  Hope it helps.
I second all what this guy says. And I like the humor too.
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ziocan
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« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2009, 07:41:42 PM »
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It should be made clear once and for all that madame Liebowitz is tight with money because she received in heritage so much real estate from her now defunct partner, on the order of several tenth of million dollars, that she did not have enough cash to pay succession taxes.
Since now it is not a good time to sell, she is hanging in there and she is juggling big and heavy balls.
I bet you all would like to have madame Liebovitz financial problems.

http://www.afterellen.com/blog/juliamirand...itz-is-in-a-jam
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ziocan
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« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2009, 07:43:49 PM »
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Quote from: Willow Photography
Well I rather spend $20.000 on a MFDB because I love the result, even if the customers dont see it,
than spend the same amount on a fancy car.  
with 20 grands we do not get anything fancy to drive.
unless is preowned....
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shelby_lewis
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« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2009, 09:33:49 PM »
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Quote from: EPd
...Where I am you don't need the tools of impression.

Where, per chance, are you?  

Hey... not knockin' you... just don't know anything about who you are, what you are, where you are, etc... annonymous screen name, no cell phone, no website (at least in the profile). Hell... I might just be Annie L for all you know. Or a 13 year-old who wants to raise your ire.

Nah, really... I like what you write and say. It just doesn't line up with reality where I am (physically).

Enough of my OT.
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Plekto
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »
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Quote from: ziocan
with 20 grands we do not get anything even decent to drive

Fixed it for you...

 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 09:39:48 PM by Plekto » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2009, 12:19:35 AM »
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Quote from: EPd
I am happy that you guys have so much fun over me. You make me feel a lot more unique than I ever thought of myself. Thinking outside the box doesn't seem to be given to everyone. When I read back what I wrote I find it very refreshing to realize that I actually did describe real facts of my life and that I even left out the probably most unbelievable. Those who have followed me for some time know that I like to be pretty accurate with my facts. This is no different with what I tell about my way of living. There are societies where machismo is not important to get a job at all. Dustbak will agree. Where I am you don't need the tools of impression. The only thing my clients are interested in is the quality of the entire process (including the final product) that I offer them. In the end this will not be much different from what you all will have to offer to your clients. I just stripped the crapola from it and my clients love me for that. This, I think, is what makes me an unusually priviliged person. Thank you for reminding me of that.

I do understand where you are coming from and having been in a hectic situation like some of you as well, I also know how that feels. Having no car or cell phone might seem crazy to most of you. Sometimes I feel like I might be the only fool in the Netherlands that has no cell. I was one of the first in the mid '80's that had one (remember those Motorola bricks with the even larger battery packs  ?). In the late 90's I was as hectic as some of you though not as a photographer. During the crash of 2000 I went all but bankrupt, what followed was a period in which I traveled with no belongings around the North Atlantic (mainly Caribean) making a living as a diving instructor/handyman/photographer/computer expert/anything that needs to be done on or around boats man. During this period I learned you don't need much to be happy and that a lot of assets also mean a lot of worries. I went back to the Netherlands when I got my son and picked up working as a photographer. Today I still have few belongings which means I don't live in a virtual golden cage. Today I rent a car (greenwheels) when I need to which I charge my clients. I have no cell phone but I can be reached and respond to email in my time and always in a timely manner if there is an emergency you should call 112 (911) not me.

I do well as a photographer because I have my clients interests in mind without forgetting my own. I can pick my clients not so much because they are standing in line for me but because I don't need to make a lot of money to uphold an expensive entourage (I will also never again hire 1 employee in my life). I can even send clients to others because I feel they can do a better job than I do. In my experience it is not so much the cars or cell phones but the attitude and commitment you have towards your clients together with the results you provide that counts in the end.

This is in short (real short) what happened to me in the last 10years.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 03:32:36 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Geoffrey
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« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2009, 03:55:31 AM »
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FYI - I have a friend who is a successful corporate attorney, with major clients. If he has a cel phone, it is hidden well. They live in a major city (Chicago) with no car, and their house has no doorbell.

He takes long fishing trips to obscure places (N. Canada, Wyoming, N. Zealand), and responds to email fairly regularly.

There is, believe it or not, room for alternative models. Not everyone has to be on call all the time....
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Dustbak
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« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2009, 04:14:15 AM »
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Quote from: Geoffrey
FYI - I have a friend who is a successful corporate attorney, with major clients. If he has a cel phone, it is hidden well. They live in a major city (Chicago) with no car, and their house has no doorbell.

He takes long fishing trips to obscure places (N. Canada, Wyoming, N. Zealand), and responds to email fairly regularly.

There is, believe it or not, room for alternative models. Not everyone has to be on call all the time....


  I forgot  My house doesn't have a doorbell either
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 04:23:51 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Streetshooter
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2009, 10:59:38 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
 I forgot  My house doesn't have a doorbell either


Hey Epd and Dustbak,

You two guys are an inspiration, good luck to you. Just goes to show we don't all have to follow like sheep......

Keep it up !

Pete
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cyberean
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2009, 12:16:07 PM »
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when i grow up i wanna be like Dustbak ...  

Quote from: Dustbak
... I learned you don't need much to be happy and that a lot of assets also mean a lot of worries. ...
... Today I still have few belongings which means I don't live in a virtual golden cage. Today I rent a car (greenwheels) when I need to which I charge my clients. I have no cell phone but I can be reached and respond to email in my time and always in a timely manner if there is an emergency you should call 112 (911) not me.

I do well as a photographer because I have my clients interests in mind without forgetting my own. I can pick my clients not so much because they are standing in line for me but because I don't need to make a lot of money to uphold an expensive entourage (I will also never again hire 1 employee in my life). I can even send clients to others because I feel they can do a better job than I do. In my experience it is not so much the cars or cell phones but the attitude and commitment you have towards your clients together with the results you provide that counts in the end.

This is in short (real short) what happened to me in the last 10years.
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check out the size of my sensor ...
choen
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2009, 12:19:11 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
I am curious why so many pros talk about using 5D2s, but I barely ever hear anyone talking about the Sony A900. Is there some reason why it is unsuited, or is it just the momentum of existing equipment carrying over into the next generation?

I just got an a900 as a sort of payment in kind that I was not supposed to resist- not knowing what to do with it (other than flogging it off at half price which is something i am not supposed to be doing)- i ended up buying a 50mm (which the clients would be very happy about) for it to do some basic simple travel and portrait stuff. Will let you know how it works out if i ever put it to a real work situation.

As for the original post about the economic returns of a camera- I feel you, man. Just that my losses are not so great.
Got suckered into a medium format back for sure (clientele and peer pressure?).

With that money I could've bought my studio a couple of full frame 35mm based digital bodies (Canon or Nikon- I already ave lenses for both systems) plus a couple of new computers and printers also or a new lighting battery pack, with cash to spare for a quick holiday somewhere (not too exotic).

Are we photographers simply cra p businessmen?
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mmurph
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« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2009, 07:18:08 PM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. Andre

Thank you for sharing Andre!

I don't know if you saw my recent post on the cost of owning/using 35mm digital, somewjhat along the same lines. Annual depreciation, etc.

Take heart in this though: if you had kept that money instead of purchasing, and had put it in stocks or other investments, you would probably be in **exactly the same** position today after the recent economic meltdown! So at least you had fun using the equipment!    

In the 90's I bought some real estate, fixed up the properties, sold them, made some money. Then I put all of the proceeds in the stock market. I also invested something like $1,000 a month, invested in my 401K, etc.  

With the recent market decline to the same price as 1997 levels, I figure I have **never** made a single dollar in the stock market, or from any of my other investmements - like the real estate.  I started investing around 1992 or so.

Cheer up, we are still alive, still here, still have a chance to make a go of things (unless you live in Iceland.   )  

Lots of people radically changing their expectations and their lifestyles with this huge economic crisis. Just let it all go and move on ...

Best,
Michael
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 07:20:53 PM by mmurph » Logged
AndreNapier
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« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2009, 07:52:07 PM »
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Michal,
Thank you for sharing as well. Tell me about real estate! I am 100% invested in commercial properties and on top of it in foreign currency. As I said in previous topic, the week when Calumet dropped their AFI's on market and I realized that I paid 20K extra was consider good week now days.
However you are right, we are still alive. Besides the money lost is mostly money on paper reflecting gross/net assets, since you loose much less ( hopefully ) if you hold to it - as long as you can make payments. Matter of fact I am in the buyers market and the opportunities on foreclosures in USA are just amazing. I am counting on turn around in the next 18 months since that is how long I can last.
Andre
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