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Author Topic: New DBs from Mamiya  (Read 21409 times)
R_Medvid
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« on: April 09, 2009, 05:44:50 AM »
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I have a news flash from local Ukrainian Mamiya dealer that Mamiya has 3 new backs coming:

M18 - 18 MPx

M22 - enhanced ZD back

M31 - 31.6 Mpx (up to 1600 ISO)

Some tech specs in attachment

[attachment=12865:App1_Tec...al_specs.pdf]


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Roman Medvid
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yaya
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 06:06:38 AM »
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Quote from: R_Medvid
I have a news flash from local Ukrainian Mamiya dealer that Mamiya has 3 new backs coming:

M18 - 18 MPx

M22 - enhanced ZD back

M31 - 31.6 Mpx (up to 1600 ISO)

Some tech specs in attachment

The spec is similar to the Kodak-chipped 18MP, 22MP and 31MP P+ backs from Phase. (does that mean the the ZD back has come to the end of its life?)

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R_Medvid
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 06:17:18 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
The spec is similar to the Kodak-chipped 18MP, 22MP and 31MP P+ backs from Phase. (does that mean the the ZD back has come to the end of its life?)

The exact wording of the news is this (translated by myself):

The 22 Mpx Mamiya ZD digital back has been enhanced and from now on is known as M22. All three adapters use the technogies Opticolor+, Dynamic+ and Lens+ that were previously imployed by Phase One.


BR,
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Roman Medvid
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2009, 08:54:14 AM »
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After Mamiya stamped a big PHASEONE logo on their AFD, the logic thinking would be to conclude that the badly implemented ZD would get help form PhaseOne.... or a total redesign.

This is a good way for them to come up with an aggressively priced line of backs that can go after the Canon/Nikon and do it in a holistic way since Mamiya is one of the few -or the only?- company that makes their own glass, lenses, cameras and now competitive backs.

It would be interesting to see if the backs will adopt the new P1 RAW FORMAT and will work in the same way in Capture One software...

 


Quote from: R_Medvid
The exact wording of the news is this (translated by myself):

The 22 Mpx Mamiya ZD digital back has been enhanced and from now on is known as M22. All three adapters use the technogies Opticolor+, Dynamic+ and Lens+ that were previously imployed by Phase One.


BR,
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mcfoto
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2009, 09:48:23 AM »
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Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
After Mamiya stamped a big PHASEONE logo on their AFD, the logic thinking would be to conclude that the badly implemented ZD would get help form PhaseOne.... or a total redesign.

This is a good way for them to come up with an aggressively priced line of backs that can go after the Canon/Nikon and do it in a holistic way since Mamiya is one of the few -or the only?- company that makes their own glass, lenses, cameras and now competitive backs.

It would be interesting to see if the backs will adopt the new P1 RAW FORMAT and will work in the same way in Capture One software...

Looks like they have gone with the Kodax chips for these backs? It would make sense that these backs use the new Capture One Software. Next question will be the price?( How Low ). The ZD back is from a 2004 design & it is time for an update ( still 22MP?? ). Is the 2.2" screen large enough my G9 has a larger screen. Was Phase One behind this?
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2009, 10:00:10 AM »
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Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:07:25 AM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2009, 10:23:41 AM »
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22mp is good size, 63megas file. They probably want to sell "afordable" backs so that there is more production of bodies and lenses, or bring MF to the masses... large sensors gives nice depth of field control, and diffraction of a 9 micron lets you close down to f: 16 before image degradation.

If they give a 22mp 1.1crop factor @, say, $8k they can dump them specially in times when budgets are more important... This way they can offer the 60mega pixel PhaseOne brands to the high end of the market...

My wish list now is a rangefinder like Mamiya 6 or Mamiya 7 with 645 lenses, minimal camera battery requirement, electronic focus range finder and digital lense...  


Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis
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Justin Berman
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 10:39:59 AM »
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If I can get a phase one quality back at a ZD price, I will sure as hell buy in. I don't need more than 22 MPIX right now anyway!

Good lord, this is actually freakin exciting!

Also, whoa, wait a damn minute. the M22 has live view. "Live Preview for composition and focus checking"

Reheheallllly? That is more interesting than the price.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:42:28 AM by Justin Berman » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 11:06:00 AM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
I just did a search & it seems that these backs are re badged Phase One P25+,P30+ & P21+ backs. They have the same specs, I could be wrong but is this a way of re branding these backs with a Mamiya logo, drop the ZD to streamline there business. Meaning Phase now controls all the backs & has input into body & lens design.
Denis


I guess this is where the Lexus-Toyota references come from.

I wonder if this is marketing or actual product invention, but lower prices are good.

In ways this seems smart if the "Toyota" brand has new features and usability or somewhat confusing if the "Toyota" brand is nothing more than the previous "Lexus" with a different logo and lower price.

You still have to wonder about medium format as it gets more confusing by the day.

[attachment=12884:lexus_toyota.jpg]



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yaya
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 11:35:07 AM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
The Leaf/Mamiya bundles are USA - MAC Group specific not created by Mamiya itself. Now worldwide is another thing and that is where the Phase/Mamiya bundles/offers/backs etc. will be good as well.

I see it as Phase One will continue to sell the high end, high MP backs with their logo and the lower MP, older sensors may then go to the Mamiya labeled backs. That would separate and elevate the Phase label but also sell a lot more backs through lower price point and the Mamiya label. The fact is, Mamiya does sell a good number of cameras far beyond the professional market, tons are sold to photo schools and students and amateurs, much more so that any other brand to those outlets.

Phase/Mam will do what they want but if they want to sell stuff then I suggest these three backs should be sold at $6K M18, $8K M22 and $10K M31. They could sell a lot this way, any higher and we are back to the same old shit and Canon and Nikon will win.

John, mind you, the 18MP and 22MP Kodak chip are no longer in production, whatever that means for the life-span of these "new" backs....
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TMARK
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 11:43:19 AM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
Phase/Mam will do what they want but if they want to sell stuff then I suggest these three backs should be sold at $6K M18, $8K M22 and $10K M31. They could sell a lot this way, any higher and we are back to the same old shit and Canon and Nikon will win.

I think $6, $8 and $10 is too high when you look at the used market pricing.  I picked up a Leaf 54s with remaining warranty for $5500.  A true ZD replacement, to sweep market share and suck people into Mamiya, should be priced $4900, $5999 and lets say $8999 for the P30+ version, at least when bundled with the Phase 645. Just my opinion, but at $5k I'd bite on that P21+ model.
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R_Medvid
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 11:45:51 AM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
...Next question will be the price?( How Low ). .....

Regarding the pricing I have this info:

M18 back - approx. $10,000

M31 System (which consists of AFDIII + M31 + 80mm / 2.8 AF) - $16,900
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Roman Medvid
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TMARK
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 12:17:20 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
I certainly agree with TMARK on even lower price points, but I was hopefully looking at a middle ground of "let's be realistic" price points.

Now with these numbers showing as possible prices, way too high, smoking crack, good luck. M18 for $10K, a joke in the new market. Just buy a 5DII and get "as good a file" and even easier a system to use.

$10k for a P21.  Nice file, but not $10k nice, especially when you consider the shutter lag and the Rube Goldberg like noises that eminate from the Mam. AFD before it takes a picture.  By the by, I bought a Leaf 54s with 8 months of warranty left for $5500.  Leaf demos are offered at $6300, who knows what people are actually paying.  With deals like these, why would anybody buy a Mamiya branded Phase back at Phase prices?    Really, I'd like to hear the explanation.  This could have been a great time to seize market share, but if these proposed prices hold, well, its all she wrote.  

Is this a pattern?  Did Phase take a page from GM's platform sharing playbook?  Boris/Hartblei = Phase Tilt Shift?  Phase 645/Mam. AFDIII? Cadalliac Catera/Opel Omega?  Saab 9-3/Saturn? Saab 9-7/Chevy Trailblaser?  Same cars, different badges?  HUGE PRICE DIFFERENTIAL?  That type of marketing driven differentiation is over.
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ziocan
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »
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Quote from: R_Medvid
Regarding the pricing I have this info:

M18 back - approx. $10,000

M31 System (which consists of AFDIII + M31 + 80mm / 2.8 AF) - $16,900
they will not go anywhere with that price.
Hasselblad offers the same kit for 14,999.

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mtomalty
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 03:55:36 PM »
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Perhaps, these backs are derivatives, in some way, of nearly a decades worth of trade-ins that Phase might
have been warehousing.


Mark
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mcfoto
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 05:38:45 PM »
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Quote from: ziocan
they will not go anywhere with that price.
Hasselblad offers the same kit for 14,999.

I agree & those prices will have to come down. They should bundle with the DL + Vertical Grip rather than the AFDIII. The DL28 is 14,999 with an extra lens & that has been out for about 5 months now.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 06:19:31 PM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 07:01:44 PM »
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just got an email today for the hasselblad H31 package for 12900.....

i have been offered the leaf package at 12000....

for these mamiya packages to succeed we are talking 5000, 6500, 8000....and even at that they would have to compaete with the all of a sudden even lower used and demo deals......there is a lot to be had between 5000 and 10000 these days....

but even at that....2600 for a 5DII.....which still beats the M18 (or whatever it will be called) on 9 out of 10 features and specs and the file quality is very very close....i would not even say better or worse anymore, just different....

in other words: anyone looking to buy a top of the line system right now which will produce large and good enough files for most commercial applications will be looking at either the D3x or the 5DII or some used/demo DMF...a new M31 would at least go head to head with the D3x and beat it in terms of file quality (and get its ..s kicked in any other regard)....
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michaelnotar
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 07:23:11 PM »
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those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22  which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo. the screen specs on that page sound like the P1 back's screen.
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ziocan
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 07:35:30 PM »
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Quote from: pss
just got an email today for the hasselblad H31 package for 12900.....

i have been offered the leaf package at 12000....

for these mamiya packages to succeed we are talking 5000, 6500, 8000....and even at that they would have to compaete with the all of a sudden even lower used and demo deals......there is a lot to be had between 5000 and 10000 these days....

but even at that....2600 for a 5DII.....which still beats the M18 (or whatever it will be called) on 9 out of 10 features and specs and the file quality is very very close....i would not even say better or worse anymore, just different....

in other words: anyone looking to buy a top of the line system right now which will produce large and good enough files for most commercial applications will be looking at either the D3x or the 5DII or some used/demo DMF...a new M31 would at least go head to head with the D3x and beat it in terms of file quality (and get its ..s kicked in any other regard)....
to be fair the 12000$ package is not complete. the complete package, equivalent to the Mamiya is 14999$.
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pookipichu
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 08:40:43 PM »
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Disgraceful that in a new product the lcd is such crap. Even P&Ss have better lcds.
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