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Author Topic: New DBs from Mamiya  (Read 21243 times)
jimgolden
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2009, 10:20:44 PM »
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is this for real? that PDF looks like BS...
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yaya
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2009, 12:31:50 AM »
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Quote from: michaelnotar
those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22  which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo. the screen specs on that page sound like the P1 back's screen.

The spec of the M22 suggests that the chip is the old (discontinued) KAF-22000 sensor. I wonder how many of these sensors (as well as the KAF-18000) are left in the fridge.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2009, 04:33:45 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
The spec of the M22 suggests that the chip is the old (discontinued) KAF-22000 sensor. I wonder how many of these sensors (as well as the KAF-18000) are left in the fridge.

I thought only film was for the fridge    Also why would they come out with new backs that 2 out of 3 that the sensor is no longer being made? This is a wait & see as there is no official release yet.
Denis
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Justin Berman
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 09:06:41 AM »
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Guys, if the PDF is right the M22 will include live view. Is that just not interesting, or did I misread it?
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TMARK
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2009, 09:28:57 AM »
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Quote from: Justin Berman
Guys, if the PDF is right the M22 will include live view. Is that just not interesting, or did I misread it?

Its not Nikon/Canon Live View on the LCD.  It looks like the tethered implementation that is on the Phase + backs.  

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bcooter
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2009, 12:19:30 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
If these backs are for real, we don't know since there is no official statement yet, that these are just rebadged Phase P21+, P25+, P30+ backs, nothing more.


If this news is real and you somewhat get the feeling that this is more a trial balloon than actual substance, then this is the worst marketing in the world.

Mamiya may not have the brand name of Leica, Hasselblad, even Canon or Nikon, but it's more well known to the enthusiast and the professional level than Phase One.

If Phase does own Mamiya and is gong to move it to the dumping ground of almost discontinued product then the prices need to go way, way, down, not higher than Hasselblad, because anybody that knows how to use ebay  can buy the exact same product, lightly used at about 1/2 the price.

All of medium format seems to be responding to the market by dropping their costs on the lower mpx cameras and raising their prices on the higher end and they can keep beating the same old drum with the same product, but a new logo doesn't cut it.

You somewhat get the feeling that somebody at Phase said, hey back in the warehouse we still have 10,000 AFDIII's and how bout all those p30's we took in on trade in, we can stick them together and call them the new ZD.  Yea . . . that'll work.



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BJL
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2009, 01:34:14 PM »
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Quote from: michaelnotar
those look alot like P1 specs even the font and layout looks like their site. the m22 has a sensor the size of the P45, just a hair over the P22  which is at 36x48mm, by a mm or a fractional mm. so thats a new chip perhaps or just a typo.
They do all seem like rebadged Phae One products, and it is also notworthy that two of the three use discontinued sensors, more evidence for them not being new designs, but rebadges.

But what interests me most is the idea that since two of the three use discontinued sensors and suggesting clearance pricing, the M31 might also be a "clearance" product, with its sensor also about to be discontinued or devalued. That is, this is another hint that Kodak is about to either discontinue its 31.6MP, 44x33mm sensor with 6.8 micron cell size in favor of a new 40MP 44x33mm sensor using the new 6 micron cell design, or "devalue" products using that sensor by introducing a new higher resolution sensor of the same size. The other hint is the recent Pentax statement about its recently revived DMF camera coming in 2010 with a sensor of "31MP or more"; that sounds to me like "31MP" if the current 44x33mm sensor is used; "more" if Pentax switches to a next generation 44x33mm sensor.

P. S. A third indication that the 31MP 44x33mm Kodak sensor is about to be "devalued" in some way is that Hasselblad has a price promotion on the H3DII-31, its kit using that same sensor: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33710

Or this could be just falling demand: either way, 31.6MP is perhaps too close to 24.5MP to easily sell as an advantage over 24x36mm format DSLRs. Which again points to a market driven need for a 40MP, 6 micron, 44x33mm as the new entry-level option.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 01:46:19 PM by BJL » Logged
klane
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2009, 03:05:09 PM »
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I agree With BJL, that would make a lot of sense in a pricing structure, especially considering the pentax statements. All of this 6 micron business leads me to say "Oh the humanity!" it terms of diffraction.  Some of us NEED to shoot at f16-f22. In my opinion loading these sensors with more pixels is causing more problems then solving them.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2009, 03:35:48 PM »
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Yes, these M backs are re-badged Phase One backs. While the 18MP and 22MP sensors may be discontinued, Phase One purchases in ample quantities to continue selling them. At the point they truly become scarce, we'll let you know. Also, these are not leftover trade-ins. These are new, never used units.

I don't know anything about the products other than it is our technology in the digital back component. I do not know what software comes with it, although I would assume Capture One. But I don't have confirmation at this point.

I've seen a lot of grousing over the pricing when compared to used pricing and eBay pricing. I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000? That is ridiculous.

NEW Phase One and Mamiya products are price competitive with any other NEW medium format digital product. And that's the way it's going to be. We are not going to drop our new product prices to used price levels. While some of you feel you won't pay higher than what a used back will go for, that will never be standard pricing policy from any manufacturer who wishes to remain in business.

While it is true that medium format still requires a substantial investment, and while we do still offer very, very premium priced products, the past 2 years has seen an unprecedented lowering of entry point for medium format solutions in the $10,000 - $16,000 price range. Previously, you didn't really have viable options below $25,000. If you don't like the product or don't want the product, then don't buy it. For those that do, pricing has become very affordable for many models.

It will be interesting to see how Mamiya differentiates (or not) from the Phase One products they are basing these units on. Please bear in mind, this is just a starting point that will continue to develop.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 03:36:54 PM by Steve Hendrix/Phase One » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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david o
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 04:06:25 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Yes, these M backs are re-badged Phase One backs. While the 18MP and 22MP sensors may be discontinued, Phase One purchases in ample quantities to continue selling them. At the point they truly become scarce, we'll let you know. Also, these are not leftover trade-ins. These are new, never used units.

I don't know anything about the products other than it is our technology in the digital back component. I do not know what software comes with it, although I would assume Capture One. But I don't have confirmation at this point.

I've seen a lot of grousing over the pricing when compared to used pricing and eBay pricing. I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000? That is ridiculous.

NEW Phase One and Mamiya products are price competitive with any other NEW medium format digital product. And that's the way it's going to be. We are not going to drop our new product prices to used price levels. While some of you feel you won't pay higher than what a used back will go for, that will never be standard pricing policy from any manufacturer who wishes to remain in business.

While it is true that medium format still requires a substantial investment, and while we do still offer very, very premium priced products, the past 2 years has seen an unprecedented lowering of entry point for medium format solutions in the $10,000 - $16,000 price range. Previously, you didn't really have viable options below $25,000. If you don't like the product or don't want the product, then don't buy it. For those that do, pricing has become very affordable for many models.

It will be interesting to see how Mamiya differentiates (or not) from the Phase One products they are basing these units on. Please bear in mind, this is just a starting point that will continue to develop.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

I think the benchmark is not really the used market but look at what hasselblad can offer... And if those M stuffs are more expensive you're out.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2009, 04:22:17 PM »
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Quote from: david olivier
I think the benchmark is not really the used market but look at what hasselblad can offer... And if those M stuffs are more expensive you're out.


I think you speak a little hastily David...

Hasselblad is offering an H3DII-31 without a lens for $12,995 and with the 80mm kit lens for $14,995. I don't have exact USD pricing on the Mamiya Kits yet,  but the M-31 kit will be in the same ballpark as the H3DII-31 kit. And Hasselblad doesn't offer any products priced to compete with the M18 or M22.

I don't see any pricing advantage for Hasselblad. If anything, their latest newsletter shows them playing a bit of catchup as Mamiya/Leaf, Mamiya/Phase, and Phase One ourselves have undercut the previous Hassleblad entry level benchmarks.

Also, a product does not have to be cheaper than a competitor to beat a competitor. It must offer a superior value proposition, or be dramatically lower in price. All of these products are now bunched up at very similar pricepoints, which allows customers to make choices based on the actual merits of the products themselves.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 04:37:12 PM by Steve Hendrix/Phase One » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »
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...and to add to Steve's point, it doesn't make sense to directly compare a focal plane system with a leaf shutter system anyway. Some people need either one or the other.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 04:33:17 PM by foto-z » Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
bcooter
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2009, 06:10:47 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
I can tell you that the used market will never be a clarion call for how we price new, never used products. I can buy a used Toyota Camry (there's that Toyota reference again...) today for $17,000. Does that mean Toyota should price their new models at $17,000?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One


The reason I made the used reference was, the Mamiya listed on the Ukranian Dealers PDF was a AFDIII not the newest body, so used or new it is still last years model and yes Toyota does cut their prices deeply on a 2008 vs. a 2009 model.

I just wonder how this all shakes out, but since news and information is scarce I guess we should wait for the next Ukrainian PDF.

BTW:  For what it's worth I was at a camera dealers today who has sold 46 Nikon D3x's, but not a single one to professional photographers, all Doctors, CEO types.   This dealer said no pro he sells to wants to spend $8,000 right now for a few more megapixels than the 5d2.

He has sold every 5d2 he can get his hands on.

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2009, 06:32:25 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
The reason I made the used reference was, the Mamiya listed on the Ukranian Dealers PDF was a AFDIII not the newest body, so used or new it is still last years model and yes Toyota does cut their prices deeply on a 2008 vs. a 2009 model.

I just wonder how this all shakes out, but since news and information is scarce I guess we should wait for the next Ukrainian PDF.

BTW:  For what it's worth I was at a camera dealers today who has sold 46 Nikon D3x's, but not a single one to professional photographers, all Doctors, CEO types.   This dealer said no pro he sells to wants to spend $8,000 right now for a few more megapixels than the 5d2.

He has sold every 5d2 he can get his hands on.


The AFDIII is the newest body.

I didn't say Toyota doesn't cut their prices, I said they don't price new products based on used product pricing.

Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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wollom
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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2009, 08:50:49 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...

Actually, for any professional photographer, 'good enough' has always been the right choice.

Professional photography has never just been about resolution, or solely about imaging technicalities.  Reliability, end use, portability, speed, cost, and flexibility have always important in equipment choices. No single device is 'best': what we use needs to be 'good enough' where it counts.

Professionals use the right equipment to meet or exceed their clients' expectations.

Wollom
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 09:46:46 PM by wollom » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2009, 12:18:30 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
The AFDIII is the newest body.

I didn't say Toyota doesn't cut their prices, I said they don't price new products based on used product pricing.

Regarding D3X vs 5DMKII sales to Pros - "good enough" really seems to have taken root in the professional community...


Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Steve,


You guys are confusing me.  I thought the newest Mamiya was the 645DF the one with that right angle grip, but maybe that's the AFDIII.  I need to get up to speed on my pdf's.

Anyway, the professional ranks haven't decided that "good enough", is just good enough and joined the 5d club, but then again a lot of professionals that earn their living in photograpy and have medium format digital use them less than they did and it's not because we all sold them on ebay.

Many of us have made the "investment" in medium format to "at the time" move forward and unless you bought a house in Vegas, or a $64,000 Chevy Suburban you probably haven't seen anything drop as fast as the equity of medium format backs and cameras, new or used.

Now, you and I both know the only real equity in any digital camera, regardless of price is how much money you can make with it.    No digital camera appreciates in price.

I think you also know that in the world of photos for advertising, every margin has become tighter though expectations are higher, so "good enough" really depends on what your shooting, what is expected and megapixels, is not the only standard for good.

What this dealer was explaining on d3x sales was his surprise that out of the 40 something he sold, all were sold to non professionals.  Since some of his professional customers already had a D3 in their bag to compliment their medium format back, it seemed like a natural progression that they would go for the d3x which by most accounts is at least the image equal to most of the older 22 mpx backs and has more usability.

Instead they went to the 5d2, which I guess is more a reflection of the current economy or maybe the 5d2 is just a hellofagooddeal.

Now in regards to the Phase, or Mamiya or AFD1,2,3, or the 645 DF I hope whatever it's called it's the best camera in the world.  I hope it has a 20" holographic lcd, goes to iso 20 billion, has leaf and focal plane shutters, twelve kinds of finders, makes the perfect espresso while you shoot and retails for any amount of money I can afford.  I also hope Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar follow suit and make an even better camera, one that none of us, including our clients can do without.  

That's healthy for our industry and my business.

The flip side is a logo change of existing product really doesn't do anything other than confuse me, but like I mentioned, I'm easily confused.

B
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 12:21:28 AM by bcooter » Logged
lisa_r
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2009, 09:42:32 AM »
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I agree that the Hasselblad looks like the better deal here: better AF, nicer handling, better balanced (in my hands anyway)easier to manually focus, etc. I my humble opinion,  probably the only advantage for the Mamiya is the cheaper lenses. (and the more universal RAW file format.)
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jimgolden
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 06:46:36 PM »
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those new D lenses aren't cheaper, it's the legacy glass...then there is the leaf shutter issue, the list goes on and on...
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mcfoto
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 08:57:49 PM »
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Quote from: jimgolden
those new D lenses aren't cheaper, it's the legacy glass...then there is the leaf shutter issue, the list goes on and on...

Really depends on which D lenses. The new 75-150, 150 2.8 & 28 are similar in price to the H lenses. The 45,80 & 120 ( D ones) are about the same as the original ones. All my lenses are non D ones & I find the quality of Mamiya glass to be excellent. IMHO about Hasselblad, is the 28 & 35-90 being designed for the 36x48 chip. Yes it will work on the H3DII-60 ( when it comes out ) but these two lenses will not use the 60MP sensor area. I have compared the two 120 macro lenses a few years ago (Mamiya, H 120 ) & there was nothing in it. They were about the same. I just find the H lenses are too heavy. With the Hy6 lenses being that they are LS they were a similar weight to the Mamiya glass.
   Back on topic the price of the 645ZDb kit is $10,999 USD. (http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-645zdb.html). If the M25 will replace the ZD @ a similar price is it a good deal? At least the M25 will have the PO software which you can use with your Canon & Nikon D3X.
Denis
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 10:24:18 PM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
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shutay
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2009, 07:53:14 AM »
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I disagree that the M18 is a waste of time to release now because even my square 16mp Ixpress V96C delivers better images (of course, it takes more effort, better technique) even after cropping down to a rectangle than what I can achieve with my DX Nikons, and from where I'm standing, the M18 would definitely be an upgrade in all senses - no need to tote along the ImageBank (although it does have it's advantages too), hopefully less cropping since it's already a rectangle and when shooting 4:3 rectangles, it offers me quite a resolution upgrade from 12mp up to 18mp. What I have no idea or justification about is really how big a market this point of view represents. In my mind, going from a D200, D300, D700 or D3 to the M18 is a big upgrade if you mainly shoot on tripod or in the studio. Maybe Phase One and Mamiya are hoping (or they know?) that there are enough people like me out there??? At this price point, I suppose I would be thinking that I could probably hunt around for a used P45, or else buy the M18 for the same price new. So it comes down to whether you're ok with buying used or you prefer to buy new and don't really need all those extra pixels.

On the other hand, somehow I seriously doubt anyone will go from a D3x to the M18, and admittedly, the Canon 5DII looks better value than the M18 in overall terms, but then in my mind, if you were looking for digital MF, it was to get bigger than 35mm, so why are you looking at a 5DII anyway? And now we're getting in that whole, horses for courses thing, so I better stop writing...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:08:14 AM by shutay » Logged
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