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Author Topic: Saturation in CS4 more pronounced than windows picture and fax viewer  (Read 9507 times)
bjanes
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2009, 07:40:45 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Can't have it as sRGB is output referred. You have scene referred data. Now the bit about using a perceptual rendering is possible if you have the proper V4 profiles.

nonsense!

Quoted verbatim from the ICC Web Site:

11. To convert the scene-referred image to output-referred in the future, there are two options:

a. Convert to the desired working space using the relative colorimetric rendering intent and perform the color rendering manually. In this case the starting point will be the scene-referred colorimetry estimates.

b. Convert to an output-referred color encoding using the perceptual rendering intent, using for example the ISO22028-2_ROMM-RGB.icc, AdobeRGB1998.icc, or sRGB_v4_ICC_preference.icc profiles and edit the result as desired.


Furthermore, I tried it and it works. Rather than stonewalling, why don't you face reality?

Bill
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digitaldog
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2009, 07:46:17 PM »
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OF COURSE you can convert scene referred to output referred! We do that every day.

You said "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ". Well its not output referred if you did that. So what exactly do you want?


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Andrew Rodney
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bjanes
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2009, 09:14:58 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
OF COURSE you can convert scene referred to output referred! We do that every day.

You said "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ". Well its not output referred if you did that. So what exactly do you want?

Just as I stated. I want to convert from a scene referred image to an output referred image and use perceptual rendering. Assignment is not the proper action, and you have not commented on this. As you stated in message 20 in this thread, sRGB is output referred and it most certainly uses the sRGB tone curve. I don't get your point at all, but see no reason to continue the discussion, which gives me a feeling of déjà vu regarding the color space of raw files.

Bill
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digitaldog
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2009, 08:15:25 AM »
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Quote from: bjanes
Just as I stated. I want to convert from a scene referred image to an output referred image and use perceptual rendering.

As I said, that's easy as long as you have the necessary V4 profiles to do so. What you actually said is in print: You stated  "I want an output referred image with an sRGB tone curve ".

The idea that somehow, a perceptual intent is going to solve all your problems, just like the idea that any specific intent is ideal in all cases doesn't wash. But you can do it, nothing at all special or unique here.

And yes, the discussion is over.
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Andrew Rodney
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OpticalMedia
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2009, 04:49:44 AM »
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Quote from: bjanes
I don't know the gamut of your Cinema Display, but since it is regarded as a high quality display, I assume that its gamut is greater than that of sRGB. If your original capture in ProPhotoRGB (ROMM-RGB) contains colors outside of the sRGB gamut, then these colors will be clipped during the conversion and the resulting picture will have less saturation.

I had assumed that Windows Picture and Fax Viewer was not color managed, but a simple experiment demonstrated that this is not the case. Shown below is a screen capture of an image in ProPhotoRGB viewed with Internet Explorer 7 (which is not color managed) and with Firefox 3 and Photoshop CS4, which are color managed. The view in IE7 is markedly desaturated due to lack of color management. The Windows and Fax Viewer image appears fine, indicating that this application must be color managed.

My Photoshop is set up to use the Adobe color management module (ACE). Photoshop can also use the Microsoft ICM. I don't know what module Firefox and the Picture and fax viewer use, but different color management modules could make a slight difference.

[attachment=12902:ScreenComposite.jpg]

This is a screen capture of soft proofing in Photoshop with the destination space set to sRGB. The gray areas show colors in the picture which are out of the sRGB gamut. These will be clipped when converting from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB. Whether or not the clipping will be visible on one's monitor depends on the gamut of the monitor. If the monitor is not capable of displaying colors beyond the gamut of sRGB, then there will be no difference.

[attachment=12903:ProofCap.jpg]

Bill

Hi bill,

Thanks for your response. Your example illustrates what I used to have on my computer when I had CS3 with my calibrated monitor. But I am still having issues with colour differences between CS4 and windows picture and Fax viewer. I thought I'd post up an example two examples here. The strange thing is when i set my default monitor profile to sRGB the colour differences between cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer dissapear. Digital dogs says this is not a fix and I know this. But being as cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer are both colour managed why is it that the colours are different when im using a dedicated monitor profile??

thanks
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bjanes
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2009, 03:23:53 PM »
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Quote from: OpticalMedia
Hi bill,

Thanks for your response. Your example illustrates what I used to have on my computer when I had CS3 with my calibrated monitor. But I am still having issues with colour differences between CS4 and windows picture and Fax viewer. I thought I'd post up an example two examples here. The strange thing is when i set my default monitor profile to sRGB the colour differences between cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer dissapear. Digital dogs says this is not a fix and I know this. But being as cs4 and windows picture and fax viewer are both colour managed why is it that the colours are different when im using a dedicated monitor profile??

thanks


If you have gone to the trouble of profiling your monitor, you definitely don't want to set the windows default monitor profile to sRGB, even though it does remove the differences you noted. Windows and Fax Viewer is color managed to some extent as I showed by opening files in various color spaces--they look reasonably good on the monitor. This shows that Windows and Fax Viewer does read the profile attached to an image and displays it accordingly. Of course, proper color management requires that both the source and destination  be displayed using profiles. Photoshop definitely uses the monitor profile when displaying images, but perhaps the Windows Viewer simply assumes output to sRGB. This would explain the behavior you noted.

Why do you want to use Windows Viewer in the first place? For JPEGs TIFFs, etc one can set the default software that opens the image. If you don't want to open Photoshop merely to view a JPEG, why don't you try setting the default to another viewer such as Irfanview? It is freeware, loads fast and has many options. Also, do you see these differences with other color managed programs such as Firefox?

Bill
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OpticalMedia
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2009, 05:45:27 AM »
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Quote from: bjanes
If you have gone to the trouble of profiling your monitor, you definitely don't want to set the windows default monitor profile to sRGB, even though it does remove the differences you noted. Windows and Fax Viewer is color managed to some extent as I showed by opening files in various color spaces--they look reasonably good on the monitor. This shows that Windows and Fax Viewer does read the profile attached to an image and displays it accordingly. Of course, proper color management requires that both the source and destination  be displayed using profiles. Photoshop definitely uses the monitor profile when displaying images, but perhaps the Windows Viewer simply assumes output to sRGB. This would explain the behavior you noted.

Why do you want to use Windows Viewer in the first place? For JPEGs TIFFs, etc one can set the default software that opens the image. If you don't want to open Photoshop merely to view a JPEG, why don't you try setting the default to another viewer such as Irfanview? It is freeware, loads fast and has many options. Also, do you see these differences with other color managed programs such as Firefox?

Bill

I like windows picture and fax viewer because it opens quick and allows for slideshow view on the fly! Im sure I could do the same with irfanview. Also I often like to display my images as my background on my desktop so either way the colour problem is still the core issue here. In your example the images in CS4 and windows viewer looked identical. I used to be able to get this consistent colour so I think their is something wrong somewhere along the line. Dont you agree? the example i posted can you see what im talking about? Im looking at your example and the images looked Identical! How can i achieve this consistency>?
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OpticalMedia
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 06:37:22 AM »
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Could somebody please get back to me on my final question/post/reply.....

Would really like to get to the bottem of this problem

thanking you in advance
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