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Author Topic: Nikon JPEG creating color effect that is difficult to recreate on RAW version in LR  (Read 5493 times)
Theodore
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« on: April 12, 2009, 09:07:40 PM »
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I'm trying to understand the limitations of LR2 when trying to create a certain color look in a RAW file (DSC7383-2) that a simultaneous in-camera JPEG (DSC7383) created.  The two attached frames (80% quality files) were shot earlier today with a Nikon D700 / 85 1.4.  This was shot RAW + JPEG Fine.  I always finish the RAW files, but I do still capture the JPEG fines as an old habit, but every now and then I come across something in the JPEG that I rather like and it spurs an idea on how to take the RAW in a certain direction.  This is probably more true with the D700 than other cameras, where I'm surprised with a nice JPEG light rendering from time-to-time.  The present issue is the color of the sweater in the two attached frames.  You'll note on the in-camera JPEG that the sweater was rendered more of red with the skin tone warm.  The RAW, but processed a bit to bring color up in vibrance, some clarity, a little saturation, blacks up for contrast, is a more muted red.

In this case, I like the JPEG rendering of the sweater, which was not over the top and yet captured a little more of the life and joy of Spring.  So I tried to get there in the RAW version.  I used the pin-point color tool in saturation, but found that while it brought up the red channel, that it quickly bled over into the face where the effects of a cold New England Sunday were making themselves evident.  Playing with related colors, like magenta did not get me there either.  Also, note the lighting in the in-camera produed JPEG on the sweater.  It's as if there is a reflector pushing some light back at the little girl and the light / dark contrast in just the sweater is very pronounced.  I've played with the exposure, brightness, contrast, along with variations of vibrance, saturation of the color channels and I haven't been able to recreate the JPEG color rendering.  

So with that background, my question is, is the in-camera JPEGs making adjustments that are outside of of what LR2 can do to a RAW version of the same file?  In this case, get that red sweater rendering, light reflection and skin tones to come together in that combination?
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2009, 09:28:20 PM »
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Have you tried the Adobe DNG Profiles?
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Theodore
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2009, 09:44:54 PM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
Have you tried the Adobe DNG Profiles?


DP - I have not.  In face, I've never played with the DNG profiles, so those are uncharted waters for me.  Is the gist that if you convert the NEF to a DNG there are camera profiles that are different from the standard RAW conversion?  I don't have the sense that this is an effect that would alter much with one set of RAW profiles vs. another, but that there was some sort of Nikon special algorithm being applied to create the in-camera JPEG based that was essentially doing Nikon "special sauce" local adjustments (pull reds up, create extra shadow contrast in the sweater pattern, leave skin tones untouched and warm them in a different direction from the reds).  I have no doubt that I've completely missed what you were trying to communicate to me DarkPenguin, so my apologies for the lack of comprehension in advance.    


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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2009, 10:46:59 PM »
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No.  They are simply a different set of color profiles.  Some might be a better match for what you are trying to do or you can make your own.  Do a search at adobe.
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Schewe
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2009, 11:23:49 PM »
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Quote from: Theodore
I don't have the sense that this is an effect that would alter much with one set of RAW profiles vs. another, but that there was some sort of Nikon special algorithm


The only "special algorithm" is the Nikon rendering that is forced down your throat with the JPEG setting–which in this case tastes better. So, you do indeed want to look at the various DNG Profiles available for your camera as this will indeed solve your issues...check them out and get back to us.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 11:16:00 AM by Schewe » Logged
ddk
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2009, 11:26:27 PM »
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Use Capture NX if you want to match in camera jpgs. There are two problems using LR, one, LR uses different algorythms to convert your raw files than Nikon's engine, 2nd problem is LR's color space which is profoto while your camera is either Adobe or sRGB
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david
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2009, 11:28:12 PM »
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Theodore,

1. the color of the sweater in the first shot is inconsistent: on parts it is red, on other parts it is purple. Do you find this all right?

2. DarkPenguin is very economic today with explanation :-) The DNG profiles are called "DNG", because the profile editor works on DNG basis. You can create your own profile with the DNG Profile Editor if you convert a sample image in DNG. That profile can then be used by ACR or LR not only with DNG but with the native raw as well.

3. When changing the colors in LR/ACR, experience with "vibrance" as well (in addition).
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Gabor
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2009, 11:29:52 PM »
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Quote from: ddk
2nd problem is LR's color space which is profoto while your camera is either Adobe or sRGB
Theodore's camera's color space is neither sRGB nor AdobeRGB but the D700's color space.
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Gabor
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2009, 09:32:58 AM »
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Thank you for clarifying DNG Profiles.  (The muscle relaxant I took was really kicking in about then.)

Quote from: Panopeeper
Theodore's camera's color space is neither sRGB nor AdobeRGB but the D700's color space.

That's true but it is pumping out srgb or argb jpegs.  Is the method that the D700 gets from it's native space to srgb/argb the same as LR's?
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2009, 10:45:59 AM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
The muscle relaxant I took was really kicking in about then
I know the effect; I took them a few weeks ago for strained neck/shoulder. Ice pack several times a day helped more.

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That's true but it is pumping out srgb or argb jpegs
ddk's statement related to the raw conversion; that's where Theodore's problem is.

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Is the method that the D700 gets from it's native space to srgb/argb the same as LR's?
Certainly not. ACR uses matrix conversions and transforms the color temperature. If the actual color temperature is between two "standards", then the transformation involves interpolation.

The most important extention in DNG 1.2 relates to the color reproduction; the introduction of DNG profiles is an admission, that the former solution was sub-optimal. Now the result of the rigid color reproduction can be adjusted.
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Gabor
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2009, 10:53:13 AM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
Theodore's camera's color space is neither sRGB nor AdobeRGB but the D700's color space.


Which is?
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david
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2009, 11:04:30 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
Which is?
Which is the D700's color space. Though one could call it the "D300's color space", as the sensor's and thus the color characteristics are identical.
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Gabor
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2009, 11:19:32 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
Which is?

A camera doesn't have a fixed color space...it has a spectral response (which varies based upon the light it's shot under) and a color mixing function. The camera can output JPEGs in various color spaces but that ain't the camera's color space.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2009, 11:28:58 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
A camera doesn't have a fixed color space...
Of course it does. Otherwise the conversion in sRGB etc. would be impossible.

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it has a spectral response (which varies based upon the light it's shot under)
1. The spectral response is just the transmissivity of the filters regarding different light waves. This does not depend the very least on the illumination.

2. Adopting this to the actual illumination is called white balancing.

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and a color mixing function
The sensor does not have such function. I guess what this "color mixing" means is the transformation from the camera's color space in the target color space.

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Gabor
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 01:33:30 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
1. The spectral response is just the transmissivity of the filters regarding different light waves. This does not depend the very least on the illumination.

Pretty sure that all sensors have metameric failure when dealing with various spectral stimuli which is one of the reasons Thomas Knoll went to the trouble of profiling sensors at Standard Illuminate A and D65...

Working space profiles such as sRGB or Adobe RGB have a fixed white point and as such can not be considered camera color spaces...
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sandymc
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 03:11:56 PM »
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Just for clarity, a camera doesn't have a color space, assuming that you are using "color space" to mean things like ProPhoto and Adobe RGB. In that sense, the definition of a color space is there is one and only one way to get from data to an absolute color in XYZ space.

Because the filters on the RGB arrays in camera sensors overlap, there is no "one and only one way" to get from sensor data to color in an XYZ space. What you have to do is come up with a compromise that gives a reasonable match over the entire color space. That's why, if you look at an Imatest diagram, the colors don't quite match. And the best compromise changes with color temperature, which is indeed why Adobe profile sensors at two different color temperatures, and DNG files have two color matrixes in them.

DNG Camera Profiles effectively extend this matching process to another level, where the mapping from camera to output is matched to situation. E.g., landscape or portrait or whatever. In practice, as I understand it, what Adobe has chosen to do is to set up the camera profiles to match the in-camera renderings. So what you get from a D700 JPEG in portrait mode will (approximately) match what you will get with the "Portrait" camera profile.

Sandy
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2009, 03:17:33 PM »
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Quote from: sandymc
DNG Camera Profiles effectively extend this matching process to another level, where the mapping from camera to output is matched to situation. E.g., landscape or portrait or whatever. In practice, as I understand it, what Adobe has chosen to do is to set up the camera profiles to match the in-camera renderings. So what you get from a D700 JPEG in portrait mode will (approximately) match what you will get with the "Portrait" camera profile.

Adobe has created a set of default DNG profiles for Canon and Nikon.  These cover the default set of modes for those two brands.  If you have a a different brand or a custom mode you'll have to create your own profiles.

Edit: They do provide a profile for other makes.  Just not a profile for each style.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 03:18:24 PM by DarkPenguin » Logged
Panopeeper
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2009, 03:37:57 PM »
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Quote from: sandymc
Just for clarity, a camera doesn't have a color space, assuming that you are using "color space" to mean things like ProPhoto and Adobe RGB
You are confusing color space with absolute color space.

The definition of color space does not contain any such criteria. It does not contain unambiguity, nor does it require the definition of a translation in CIE XYZ, and it does not require, that the space be three dimensional.

Adding custom-made criteria does not reduce the confusion. Taking ProPhoto, sRGB and AdobeRGB as basis, one could say that a color space has to be defined in a three dimensional space (that would eliminate CMYK from the color spaces) or that it has to be expressed by three primary color components (that would eliminate L*a*b as well).
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Gabor
Theodore
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »
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Jeff, DP, Pano, and others - thanks for the responses.  I didn't initially follow that what DP was saying was inquiring whether I'd experimented with the profile settings within the "Camera Calibration" panel (it was the "DNG" {and my not knowing that was the name of the profiles} that threw me off the scent).  The answer was "no" even though Jeff and Michael spent some time on that panel in the LR2 series, but I did not process (my mother's sense of pun humor) that it was an area that I should spend some time with.  I think there's a psychological component to it - "calibration" is often a scary word that connotes the ability to really mess things up.  So I wandered over the profile pull down and started experimenting.  Well, my goodness.  What incredible color shifts.  I found I like ACR 4.6, which saw the sweater as more red (and I think closer to the color of the sweater) than Standard.  I was able to get fairly close to the JPEG by selecting "Camera Standard" (got the color pretty close) and raising the overall exposure a hair adding some fill light (to lighten the front of the sweater) and increasing the contrast from 5 to 10 (to create that contrast in the woven sweater pattern).  The downside to all of this is that there was a certain happiness and simplicity in just using the LR Standard setting.  For folks that experiment with the profiles, have you found that it is a setting that you come back to from time-to-time or perhaps frequently or did you settle on say ACR 4.6 or camera neutral, etc. over the course of time and leave it there?   Again, my appreciation and thanks to all.  

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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 05:06:43 PM »
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It isn't a good name as it seems to confuse everyone.  I think there is an article on it on the main page of this site.

I usually use Camera Standard for those that have that as an option.
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