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Author Topic: HP Z3200 to good a deal to pass up?  (Read 15154 times)
howseth
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2009, 11:49:56 PM »
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Paper choice for fine art is a very personal decision: I like the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin the best - by a long shot. It works best for my particular type of photo work. I wish it was less expensive though... But whaddya gonna do?

Howard Seth Miller
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kaelaria
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2009, 11:57:35 PM »
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+1

I also like the HP Pro Satin, and it's a lot cheaper.  I love Ilford GFS too, but get pizza wheel marks sometimes at the end of the rolls.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 03:08:34 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
I have been using an HVLP spray gun to apply Matte Eco PrintShield to HP Matte Professional Canvas prints produced with a Z3200 and things seems ok so far except for two things. Firstly the Matte Eco seems to give a very slight sheen compared to the uncoated HP Matte canvas but it is minimal and doesn't worry me.


To give a canvas good protection and a matte surface without the sheen you better lay down a gloss varnish first and after that a minimal layer of matte varnish on top. That is what I do to avoid a loss of detail etc due to scattering in thicker layers of matte varnish.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 03:36:56 AM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
To give a canvas good protection and a matte surface without the sheen you better lay down a gloss varnish first and after that a minimal layer of matte varnish on top. That is what I do to avoid a loss of detail etc due to scattering in thicker layers of matte varnish.

How many coats of gloss do you lay down and do you find that satin can also be used as a base for matte Eco?
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 04:56:38 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
How many coats of gloss do you lay down and do you find that satin can also be used as a base for matte Eco?

I usually lay down two coats of gloss and one satin.  Where I wrote matte it should be satin. Lascaux acrylic, nr 2060, 2061, water based. It is the old B72 formulae that has been tested long before its use in digital arts. There are UV protected versions too. I never use matte, my error. No, I think that one should only apply satin or matte as a thin layer on top and always gloss as the filling layer.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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Dan Donovan
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2009, 08:39:53 AM »
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I highly recommend HP, being a very happy Z3100 owner.  First, NO CLOGS!  Just leave the 3200 turned on all of the time and it will automatically go through maintenance cycles.  Second, excellent print quality.  And third, a couple of issues did come up, but they were all solved very quickly by HP.  When calling tech support, they initially went overseas.  But, as soon as they found out I had a 3100 printer, I was transferred to the US.  My tech reps had a 3100 printer in the office so they could look at one while they discussed it with me.  Very, very professional service from HP.
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kuau
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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2009, 08:41:24 AM »
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Quote from: kaelaria
+1

I also like the HP Pro Satin, and it's a lot cheaper.  I love Ilford GFS too, but get pizza wheel marks sometimes at the end of the rolls.

Does the HP Pro Satin use the GE?
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2009, 10:12:32 AM »
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Quote from: kuau
Does the HP Pro Satin use the GE?

You can choose on or off.
However I have found that glossy prints look terrible when GE is turned off.
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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kuau
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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2009, 10:35:40 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
You can choose on or off.
However I have found that glossy prints look terrible when GE is turned off.
So the HP pro Satin is considered a glossy paper?
How about all the fiber papers like HHahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl  or Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin do these also require the ge
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neil snape
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2009, 11:25:29 AM »
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Quote from: kuau
So the HP pro Satin is considered a glossy paper?
How about all the fiber papers like HHahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl  or Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin do these also require the ge



It is considered and is a Photo surface. As are the Baryta including some matte surfaces, not at all matte in a traditional sense.

I haven't found any Baryta surfaces nor the very nice HP Pro Satin to not need Gloss Enhancer. The only thing you give up is a somewhat more fragile surface and a very slight magenta coloration at quite oblique angles in certain light. I have found some images that have a lot of near white need GE set to whole page rather than Eco mode. Otherwise you can lower the white point in the image area which will apply ECO mode to only the image area without spraying the margins.
GE works on all photo surfaces so well that there is every reason to use it all the time and few not to. On matte it doesn't do anything even when tricked to be applied.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 02:05:25 PM »
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I have been comparing some RC prints on my Epson 9600, Epson 7900  and HP Z3200. This is not scientific, just a few observations I have made whilst trying out some papers for a possible print job coming up.

1. HP Pro Satin:
Excellent blacks on Z3200 and 7900 - 7900 very slightlly better.
Smoothest gradations on 7900 (perhaps due to 16 bit).
Obvious GD on both Epsons and also on HP without GE.
Variable micro scratches in all cases with this paper, worst on Z3200.
Micro scratches seem to be reduced on Z3200 with extended drying time.

2. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Peal:
Poor blacks on Z3200 compared to 1 above.
No micro scratches.
Nicer tactile feel to paper (but so what if it is being framed behind glass?)

3. Ilford Gallery Pearl roll (new version):
Great blacks on Z3200.
No micro scratches.
Tonal gradations not quite as smooth as HP Pro Satin (perhaps this is due to the slight surface texture).

4. Ilford Gallery Gold Fibre Silk:
Great blacks on Z3200.
Nicest finish of the lot except for two things.
The default GE setting still gives GD in the un-printed areas.
Lots of Pizza wheel marks even with extended drying time.
This paper doesn't seem to dry quick enough and this is made worse by the extra thickness.

5. HP Baryte:
Thickest paper of all the above.
No marks whatsover.
But the blacks are not so good.

6. Hahnemuehle Fine Art baryta:
Faint starwheel marks visible with a loupe.
Hahnemuehle supplied preset in default state with starwheels up and paper thickness set to normal.
Blacks are good although the default profile is not revealing as much shadow detail as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.
GD in the unprinted areas is still visible and is about the same as the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.

Of the above papers, I would really like to use the HP Po Satin. However I am a little uncomfortable with providing customers with prints using this paper due to the micro scratches. So I will most likely stay safe and use the Ilford Gallerie Pearl. It is a shame that the Z3200 still has the Pizza wheel problem but as has been said elsewhere it seems to only be a problem with slower drying third party papers. Otherwise the gloss optimiser allows the Z3200 to give better results than the Epsons.

Wouldn't it be nice if one of these companies could get all of these factors right for once?

Update1: Added further papers and comments.
Update2: Added HFA Baryta.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 03:33:06 PM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
howseth
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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 06:52:54 PM »
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Kuau - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin - you should not use GE on the Z3100/Z3200. If you do - you will spoil the variable sheen effect - you get in the whiter areas on this special paper.

Howard
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davewolfs
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« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2009, 04:12:58 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
I have been comparing some RC prints on my Epson 9600, Epson 7900  and HP Z3200. This is not scientific, just a few observations I have made whilst trying out some papers for a possible print job coming up.

1. HP Pro Satin:
Excellent blacks on Z3200 and 7900 - 7900 very slightlly better.
Smoothest gradations on 7900 (perhaps due to 16 bit).
Obvious GD on both Epsons and also on HP without GE.
Variable micro scratches in all cases with this paper, worst on Z3200.
Micro scratches seem to be reduced on Z3200 with extended drying time.

2. Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Peal:
Poor blacks on Z3200 compared to 1 above.
No micro scratches.
Nicer tactile feel to paper (but so what if it is being framed behind glass?)

3. Ilford Gallery Pearl roll (new version):
Great blacks on Z3200.
No micro scratches.
Tonal gradations not quite as smooth as HP Pro Satin (perhaps this is due to the slight surface texture).

4. Ilford Gallery Gold Fibre Silk:
Great blacks on Z3200.
Nicest finish of the lot except for one thing.
Lots of Pizza wheel marks even with extended drying time.
This paper doesn't dry quick enough and this is made worse by the extra thickness.

5. HP Baryte:
Thickest paper of all the above.
No marks whatsover.
But blacks not very good.

Of the above papers, I would really like to use the HP Po Satin. However I am a little uncomfortable with providing customers with prints using this paper due to the micro scratches. So I will most likely stay safe and use the Ilford Gallerie Pearl. It is a shame that the Z3200 still has the Pizza wheel problem but as has been said elsewhere it seems to only be a problem with slower drying third party papers. Otherwise the gloss optimiser allows the Z3200 to give better results than the Epsons.

Wouldn't it be nice if one of these companies could get all of these factors right for once?

Update: Added further papers and comments.

I've read that there is a setting that you can raise the wheels when create your own paper profile.  Have you tried raising them to the maximum level for the Ilford Gallery Gold paper?
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kaelaria
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« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2009, 04:18:37 PM »
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Yes you can raise the pizza wheels up a notch, but it doesn't eliminate them on some papers including the IGGFS which otherwise is excellent.  Extended drying time also has absolutely nothing to do with it, since all that does is hold the paper for 5 min before cutting it.  It's already gone through the wheels at that point.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2009, 05:52:54 PM »
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Quote from: kaelaria
Yes you can raise the pizza wheels up a notch, but it doesn't eliminate them on some papers including the IGGFS which otherwise is excellent.  Extended drying time also has absolutely nothing to do with it, since all that does is hold the paper for 5 min before cutting it.  It's already gone through the wheels at that point.

My IGGFs preset already had the wheels raised and indeed this didn't help.

Thanks for the clarification on the drying time.

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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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kaelaria
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2009, 06:34:55 PM »
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I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets.  Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2009, 04:55:59 AM »
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Quote from: kaelaria
I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets.  Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.

My Z3200 Printer Utility allows the following adjustments to the Printing Properties of each individual paper preset:

Paper Thickness:  Normal / Thick
Dry Time:  None / Reduced / Automatic / Extended
Starwheels:  Up / Down
Global Ink  Limits: 80 to 120
Gloss Enhancer  Amount: 1 to 120
Cutter:  On / Off

As supplied, my Z3200 does not have the manual height adjustment that is available with the Z3100 retrofit.

My Ilford GFS preset is set with the starwheels in the Up position and the paper thickness is set to Thick.
However I am still getting the starwheel marks in the dark areas sadly rendering the prints unusable for me.
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2009, 05:22:47 AM »
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Quote from: kaelaria
I don't understand what you mean - the wheels are a manual control, nothing to do with the presets.  Perhaps you are confusing the paper height adjustment of the print heads.


As far as I can judge it with a Z3100 + starwheel upgrade kit and a Z3200 here. The Z3100 has the manual height adjustment added with the upgrade kit but could have an underlying automatic system too that was already available on all the Z3100s, the last not user adjustable. The Z3200 has probably an improved automatic system that doesn't need the extra manual system and is user adjustable with the presets. I was surprised too that the manual adjustment wasn't available on the Z3200 and noticed the difference in the media preset creation menus.

The Global ink limit settings changed too between the models: 80-100% on the Z3100 to 80-120% on the Z3200.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2009, 05:43:12 AM »
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Perhaps if Ilford reformulated the IFGS to be quicker drying then the problem would be solved?
Their reformulated Gallery Pearl has been fine on my Z3200 - no starwheel or other marks at all.
A shame because I prefer the look of the IGFS to the Gallery Pearl.
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2009, 09:29:39 AM »
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So you are saying the Z3200 star wheel adjustment is electric?  That's interesting I have never seen that mentioned before.
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