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Author Topic: Rendering intents when printer manages colour ???  (Read 13861 times)
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2009, 07:40:06 PM »
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Thanks Wayne - both posts clarify everything.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
madmanchan
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 07:35:34 AM »
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Quote from: SimonS
I do not believe I misunderstood your post.

You did say that Adobe had changed the APIs did you not ?

I don't recall saying that, though my post above may have been unclear. Apple changed the printer driver APIs and requested both applications and printer drivers switch to using the new APIs. Adobe said "OK" and did so starting with CS4. Epson said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces in their Leopard drivers for RGB color printing, which works fine (though as Jeff noted above there is still a remaining glitch with the ABW side of the driver). Canon said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces as well in their Leopard drivers -- at least for some printers, such as their iPF series. It is unclear to me (i.e., I simply don't know) what they did with their older drivers (e.g., for Tiger), or whether they updated the drivers for the Pro9000 or iP4500.


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OK.  So how did Adobe make sure that the printer manufacturers were aware of this; and that they were aware that the changes could seriously effect the ability to create a colour managed workflow ?


As I mentioned above, it is Apple's API, not ours, so it has been Apple notifying the developers (including the ones at Adobe, Epson, Canon, HP, etc.) about API changes.

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Did not Adobe test CS4 with different printers (or, at the very least, with a selection of professional printers) and identify this problem ?  Having identified this problem did they make the manufacturers aware of this ?  Did they post warnings on the internet and with the installation software so that users would be aware of the pitfalls ?

Yes, we have lots of printers internally from many different makers and we tested them printing from various platforms. I say "we" generally here because, although I am aware of the general procedure, I am not actually part of the PS dev team and hence don't know exactly which printers we have, and exactly which versions of the driver were tested, etc. I do know that we don't have every single printer made by the Big Three, so it is possible that, say, we don't have a iP4500 in-house and hence didn't test it directly.

My understanding, though, is that we also gave early builds of CS4 to the printer makers (e.g., Canon, Epson, HP, etc.) so that they could also test it with their own printers.

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And there you go again, handing the problem 'over the wall'*.
May I respectfully suggest that it would be more constructive to engage in dialogue with Apple and the printer manufacturers and focus on providing a solution.

As I noted in my first post in this thread, we have already double-checked with Apple (actually even more times than that) that we are using their printer interfaces correctly. We have also worked with Apple to see if Photoshop can provide internal workarounds so that even if a driver isn't fully compliant, it will still print correctly. Unfortunately none of the workarounds were considered satisfactory (e.g., they would all break when Snow Leopard comes out, or if the printer driver version changes, etc.), and Apple strongly recommended that the real fix come from the drivers. We have also had direct dialogue with the printer makers with regards to driver issues, but ultimately they are the ones to decide whether or not they will update their drivers. Epson did so for their latest printers, Canon did so for their iPF-series printers, but possibly not for the iP4500/Pro9000.
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 11:35:03 AM »
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Hi Eric.

Many thanks for your patient and clear explanation of the history behind this.  This certainly makes things a lot clearer.

Some new printer drivers, from Canon, have been posted on their US website and I will be trying these in due course.

Moving on from this may I offer the following suggestion.  These are offered not in criticism, but as a realistic suggestion to be seriously considered.

CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS
The conclusions I have dawn from what I heave learned so far is that this seems to be a communications problem.  Principally, communication with the end user.

Adobe changed the ‘APIs’ in CS4 in good faith but did not inform end users that this could cause a problem with older printer drivers.  The ReadMe with the release of CS4 mentions problems with “some Canon printers” using ‘Printer Manages Color’ but fails to mention that a problem exists for ‘No Color Management’, and fails to mention a problem for Epson printers.
Of more use would have been a general warning for all printers along with a simple explanation.  My five days of troubleshooting could thus have been reduced to a few hours.

Canon’s European and US websites are mute on the issue, and even their download sections and driver ReadMe files fail to mention the problem or identify which drivers resolve the it.  Canon’s European Technical Support were entirely ignorant of the issue.  Their recommendation was to get the printer replaced.
Epson users appear to have suffered a similar fate.  Had Canon’s internal and external communications been even adequate I could have solved the problem in a matter of minutes !

My suggestion is that Adobe and the printer manufacturers need to be more focused on their end users and what implications any changes to their software might have in day-to-day use.  Communication of these changes is essential, even if a solution is not immediately available.

Eric, could you take this feedback to Adobe ?

Many thanks, again, for your help with this issue.
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Schewe
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 11:54:19 AM »
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Quote from: SimonS
Eric, could you take this feedback to Adobe ?


I'm quite sure Adobe is well aware the issues since what you mention are all pretty obvious. But Eric in not even on the team that works on Photoshop...he works on the Camera Raw team. Heck, Eric is in Boston while the print engineer is in Minneapolis and the product manager is in San Jose so it's not like theywould even strike up a conversation in the hallways...

 I know the guys working on the printing engine in Photoshop and the amount of work that has been done in the last couple of revs to fix old crufty problems has been substantial. Add to this the fact that Apple has once again forced Adobe down a certain direction when they killed the Carbon 64bit APIs which forces Adobe to switch to Cocoa APIs for Photoshop CS5 (assuming you WANT to get a 64 bit version of Photoshop), some of the work had been done in CS3 and now in CS4 with the API switch.

But Adobe is not in the position of wanting (nor should THEY have to) be the industry watchdog for all the things that may be used with Photoshop. The fact that older print drivers may not run as expected in new versions of Photoshop or in OS's should not come as a surprise to users...nor can you expect Adobe to do compatibility testing with each and every piece of equipment in every region of the world.

Rather, I think you should get down Canon's throat for being dense and rather backwards and primitive with their Mac print driver development...and Apple for not having all their 3rd party developers working together (and for making development on the Mac such a royale pain in the royal)

But, seriously, this ain't Eric's job ya know? He just hangs around to help where he can–and thank you very much for that Eric!!!
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Dinarius
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2009, 01:11:08 PM »
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System: PC/Vista x64/Epson R2400: Monitor calibration is done with Eye One Display 2 and basICColor Display.

Been having a nightmare with dark prints via CS4. Had tried everything.

Just found the solution on this site>

http://www.photographyri.com/index.php/200...t-engine-proble

As per the suggestion, I reset my R2400 as the Default Printer and, for whatever reason, my prints are now exactly what I'm seeing on the monitor.

For the record, I came to CS4 via the (CD) upgrade from CS3. During installation of the upgrade, the printer was connected. Maybe this had something to do with it.

One very happy bunny!

D.

ps. Where would we be without Google!?  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 01:11:47 PM by Dinarius » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 11:32:24 AM »
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This thread made me curious to see whether similar problems exist with Windows XP, because if they did, it would be significant information for people migrating from PSCS3 to PSCS4.

Anyhow, it seems not. I am on Windows XP Professional SP2, using an Epson 3800 with Epson driver version 5.5.1 and a custom profile for Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which I made with my XRite Pulse Elite. Letting Photoshop Manage Colors with BPC on in both cases, I selected a file with a good range of hues and for which any difference of luminosity would be readily visible. I printed it sequentially using CS3 and CS4. There is no difference between the prints.

Unless Adobe's print module needs to be different in mission-critical respects between the PC and the MAC implementations of Photoshop, this test would seem to isolate the problem as an OS issue, because nothing happened between CS3 and CS4 PC versions of Photoshop to affect the prints.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Damir
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2010, 12:02:40 PM »
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I am too on 32 bit Windows XP SP2, and have extreme problems with PS CS4. I normally use CS3 for my printing and everything that everyone suggest about color management worked as stated - use application manage color, although I really never see any difference between printer manage color and application manage color. After all when printer manage color you still use specific ICC by choosing paper type in printer driver.

It is just not true that you dont have color management with option printer manage color - when I add new paper to my printer driver it specifically ask me to include ICC profile connected with paper, also type of paper - which sets ink limit and how much printing heds will rise from the base during printing.

I use only HP printers: 8750, 8550, 8850, 9180 and Z3100. Soft proofing was close enough to final print but never perfect, after all we talk about different media, we compare monitor which is source of light with print which is reflective media, surface is not identical also. Soft proof works best for glossy photo paper whose surface approximate surface of monitor. Matt papers differs mostly.

I run photography school in camera club, which include lessons about printing. I also print pictures for an exhibitions. I printed thousands of images from different sources: small compacts, Holga, Lomo, scanned films of various formats (B&W, negative and slides), semi-professional DSLR, professional DSLR, digital medium format of various kind. Everything runs pretty smooth for a few years.

Than a nightmare stikes I need more machines for clasees and naturaly it is not possible to buy CS3 any more - so we buy CS4. More than hundred prints later I still can not get proper picture from CS4 if I let Photoshop manage color. I got decent picture - find some workaround like to print on default printer in printer & faxes (before that any printing was disaster - looks like printer use chocholate to make print), but prints do not have life in it, details are blurred, colors muted, gamut smaller.

I hope I not need to say that everything is calibrated - I do this for living for some time. I not consider myself for any kind of guru, just experienced user, printing is not my main job, just a part of my photography therefore I still have a lot of unknowns - I will like to know much more - but just can not find answers anywhere.

So CS4 if for my purpose extremly bad investment - Adobe did not gave me option to buy CS3 or even CS2 anymore. Hope that CS5 will be better, although this means spending a lot of money for upgrades which after all may not work any better.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2010, 08:51:29 PM »
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Quote from: madmanchan
Canon said "OK" and added support for the new interfaces as well in their Leopard drivers -- at least for some printers, such as their iPF series. It is unclear to me (i.e., I simply don't know) what they did with their older drivers (e.g., for Tiger), or whether they updated the drivers for the Pro9000 or iP4500.

Epson did so for their latest printers, Canon did so for their iPF-series printers, but possibly not for the iP4500/Pro9000.

Just to clarify what Canon did for their iPF printer drivers was to special case the current applications (current as to when the drivers were written) that print using Apple's new printing path. You can find the application listed in this file, /Library/Printers/Canon/GARO/Frameworks/GARO_CUPS.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/AppColorMatchingInfo.xml. If an application (internal name listed in Info.plist in the package) is not list in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file the driver will default to Color management when application manages color is selected. If the application is listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file then the driver will default to No color correction when application manages color is selected.

So LR3 and PSCS5 are not listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file so you will need to add them in if you want No color correction in the driver when application manages color is selected.

Whether this applies to non Canon iPF drivers I do not know but it would be something worth looking into.

Doyle
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