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Author Topic: Single Row Panos - Are there advantages of using a T/S Lens?  (Read 13907 times)
davewolfs
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« on: May 04, 2009, 12:35:18 AM »
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Hello everyone,

I'd like to start shooting some pano images and I am curious to know if there are advantages in using T/S lenses to shoot panos with today's advanced stitching software.  Specifically, If I shoot around the nodal point with a regular lens vs shifting with a T/S lens and stiching together my photographs would I notice a significant difference?

Thanks in advance,

Dave
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elf
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 01:57:10 AM »
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Quote from: davewolfs
Hello everyone,

I'd like to start shooting some pano images and I am curious to know if there are advantages in using T/S lenses to shoot panos with today's advanced stitching software.  Specifically, If I shoot around the nodal point with a regular lens vs shifting with a T/S lens and stiching together my photographs would I notice a significant difference?

Thanks in advance,

Dave

It depends.  If you have a good spherical pano head, it will be much faster to move to the next frame and you won't be limited in FOV.  Using the tilt plus shift of the T/S lens will give you more control over the DOF.  I use Microsoft ICE, http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/red...groups/ivm/ICE/, for stitching and it has no problems stitching images shot with either method.

p.s It's the entrance pupil that you need to rotate around, not the nodal point. They're not exactly in the same postion.
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 03:55:48 AM »
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with a TSE lens without any pano ball-head you can do 3 photos horizontally or vertically , you will get a pano 2:1 at the end
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francois
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 04:32:22 AM »
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As Eric pointed out above, with T/S you only extend your panoramic coverage by a small amount. It might be enough in some cases but it's very limiting. Now, with a T/S lens and a pano head, you could combine the advantages of T/S lenses along with stitching and get some amazing panos.

Also, consider that a pano head is cheaper than a T/S lens and you can use it with the lenses you already own. I don't think that you'll have major problems regarding "nodal point". You can purchase a rail to move your camera in the ideal position. Also, note that if you use a T/S and want to reach perfection, you'll also need to move your camera in the clamp when you shift to the left or right.
You can find good info on Outback Photo website: Using 35mm T/S lenses and Avoiding Parallax while Stitching with Shift Lenses.

Although I own T/S lenses, if find that a pano head (FWIW, I use a RSS head) is faster and less limiting than T/S lenses.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:36:58 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
davewolfs
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 09:31:18 AM »
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Thanks for the replies everyone.

So by Pano head, would something like this be sufficient?  Is there a better alternative.

http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkiti...lem-Pkg&eq=

I've read about the Nodal Ninja but I'm not sure if this is applicable for single row panos.
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francois
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 09:58:39 AM »
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Quote from: davewolfs
Thanks for the replies everyone.

So by Pano head, would something like this be sufficient?  Is there a better alternative.

http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkiti...lem-Pkg&eq=

I've read about the Nodal Ninja but I'm not sure if this is applicable for single row panos.
I use the very same RRS pano head. It's more than sufficient for my needs. RRS also sells an ultimate package for multi-row panos.

I'm sorry but I don't know much about the Nodal Ninja head.

A long time ago, I used a Manfrotto QTVR pano head but I can't remember which model (probably discontinued). You might want to visit Panotools wiki: http://wiki.panotools.org/Heads
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Francois
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:10 AM »
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Dave,

1. A T/S lens does not make pano creation easier, except that you may need less frames, depending what/how you are shooting.

2. The RRS stuff costs several times more than other pano brackets, which do the very same. Exception may be with very heavy gear, like an MFDB. Heavy lens is usually not an issue: when you need a long lens, you probably don't need any pano bracket at all.
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Gabor
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 11:28:27 AM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
with a TSE lens without any pano ball-head you can do 3 photos horizontally or vertically
What is a "pano ball-head"? If there is a gear unsuitable for pano shooting, then it is a ball-head, but I can imagine, that someone comes up with the idea of an inverted ball-head.
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Gabor
erick.boileau
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 11:46:55 AM »
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I call it pano ballhead because I have a RRS BH-55 + their Pano gear
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 12:14:08 PM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
I call it pano ballhead because I have a RRS BH-55 + their Pano gear
I guess it's easier to leave it on if you have it on the tripod, but its contribution to the pano is zero.
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Gabor
stever
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 12:35:11 PM »
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one of the problems using a TS lens is vignetting on the far edges of the shifted images

the RRS pano head is expensive and needlessly robust for a 35mm camera, but it works very well.  i use it with their angle bracket and lightweight nodal slide.  recently i've been mounting the pano head directly to the tripod and using their monopod head on top of the pano head.  it doesn't take long to level the head adjusting the legs with a bit of practice and you need a bubble level on the camera, but this setup will also work for 2 or 3 row panos if there aren't really close elements in the image.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 12:38:50 PM »
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The ideal kit for stitching (especially for architecture) (for res or wide angle) is a sliding/stitching back on an MF (or LF) monorail, with specialist apo digital lenses with enough image circle for stitching.

When you shift-and-stitch (as opposed to pan-and-stitch) 2*2 = nearly 4, as you do not have to distort to correct the perspective, and you do have to crop to get back to a rectangular picture.

The cost of getting a system to do this digitally can be horrendous, but you can buy an old digiback or scan-back and a Sinar...
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
feppe
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 12:42:39 PM »
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If you only shoot landscapes with no foreground subjects, you don't need a specialized pano head - you'll get great results with a regular ball head. But if you have foreground objects or shoot interiors, a proper pano head is a must.
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davewolfs
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 01:20:16 PM »
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Quote from: feppe
If you only shoot landscapes with no foreground subjects, you don't need a specialized pano head - you'll get great results with a regular ball head. But if you have foreground objects or shoot interiors, a proper pano head is a must.

Can you define what a proper pano head is.  As far as I can tell, the advantage of the RRS pano head vs my Markins Ballhead with RRS clamp is that I can level on the head and pan rather then level with my tripod legs and pan with my ballhead.

Also, with the RRS head I can adjust for my nodal point using the sliding rails.  Aside from proper leveling and getting the nodal point correct, is there anything to it if I do have foreground subjects in my photos?

Thanks again for the replies.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 01:20:42 PM by davewolfs » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 01:44:51 PM »
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Quote from: davewolfs
Can you define what a proper pano head is.  As far as I can tell, the advantage of the RRS pano head vs my Markins Ballhead with RRS clamp is that I can level on the head and pan rather then level with my tripod legs and pan with my ballhead
As I said before, a ballhead is worthless if not outright totally unsuitable for shooting pano frames.

The basic issue is, that the camera has to be swiweled/rotated on a level plane (beginners often believe that the camera has to be level; this is neither sufficient, nor necessary).

If the ballhead has a swiweling base, like Erick's RRS BH-55, then the tripod has to be levelled and the ball-head is a useless gadget, even making shooting with a pano bracket more difficult. I read it somewhere, that there are ball-heads with a swiweling platform on top of the ball-head; if so, these are useful.

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Gabor
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 03:29:09 PM »
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Arca-Swiss makes an upside-down ballhead, and i'd love to hear from anyone using it.  Don't understand why no one else does this.  With a little effort,some ballheads can be mounted upside-down on the tripod.
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Tyler Mallory
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 04:47:52 PM »
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One of the more useful capabilities of the T/S lens for panning is that it adds the ability to look/compose up or down via the shift, while the camera stays level. This avoids bending the horizon or leaning your vertical lines.

Left or right shifting for stitching also helps keep appropriate linear perspective. As others have mentioned, the extreme edges of the shift will show a little vignetting. That's your side coverage limit, though it is pretty wide.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:48:44 PM by Tyler Mallory » Logged

Panopeeper
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 05:33:12 PM »
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Quote from: Tyler Mallory
One of the more useful capabilities of the T/S lens for panning is that it adds the ability to look/compose up or down via the shift, while the camera stays level. This avoids bending the horizon or leaning your vertical lines
This is the task of the stitcher. Actually, the stitcher can do this better than any T/S lens if there are objects with clear vertical lines (typically the side edges of buildings are sutiable).
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Gabor
luong
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »
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If  you have a panoramic head that is designed for single-row panos (that is can ensure rotation along the entrance pupil only along a single axis) and a regular lens, you'll need to have the horizon in the middle of the image unless you have a lens that has shift capabilities. You'd use the shift in the direction perpendicular to the rotation.

On the other hand, if you have a panoramic head for *multi-row* panos, there is no need to use a T/S lens, since you can point the lens up or down as needed.

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Anders_HK
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »
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Hi,

All above seem focused on the gear of panoramic head. There is some critical points missing;

1. Rotating camera -

a) Cheapest is to do so on the head you already have on your tripod. Many ballheads have a panoramic base, or even keep ballhead not quite tightened onto the tripod and rotate it between each shot.

b ) Handheld can work same way as a) but less accurate, perhaps not as sharp photos.

c) RRS Panoramic Clamp will make above easier; http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.a...amp;eq=&Tp= (read their website)

I have tried 1 a) and did not like it.

Problem 1 - The negative is that when you stitch the software calculates the images and perspective. Say if you take three photos to stitch, thus the one in center already has the perspective. The other two need to be stretched out from the far ends both horizontally and vertically. That makes you loose precious pixels and resolution!

Problem 2 - More so... above methods makes it impossible to exact compose an image. Take a look at images made in this way and compare to a classical book on panoramic photography using 617 or 612 etc. You will probably see what I mean... While you will be "free" from a set image size or format... you will have zip nil to compose your image within. Mentally imagining the composition does not result in same thing as in critically composing an image...

2) Flat stitching -

This takes care of Problem 1 above. Using a shift lens also partly takes care of problem 2.

Read here http://www.shutterbug.net/techniques/pro_t...806perspective/ + http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html

3) Stitching adapter on LF -

All that are reasonably good are very $overpriced$ expensive. They also feature ridiculous too small groundglasses to aid in focusing in s small focus area and not to aid you in composing an image for panoramic. I already use a medium format digital back and am having custom make an adapter for me in China, which should be cheaper than other adapters (except cheapy one on ebay). I will use traditional large format lenses and not the $overpriced$ digitar large format lenses. The traditional have larger and large enough image circles for also 617 format stitching, the digitar do not! Albeit... I will have to see how well it will work in end, because diffraction can be issue, and for wides depth of focus and chromatic aberations. I keep fingers crossed... My adapter will have about 4" x 3" groundglass for proper composition and focusing for panoramics...

4) Film -

For panoramic it was easier  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 06:25:48 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
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