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Author Topic: Phase P30+ offer $16995 with camera  (Read 13593 times)
narikin
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« on: May 08, 2009, 04:09:16 AM »
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I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
pretty damn good. especially as street price would be still lower. seems like what everyone wanted - more affordable MF is coming to pass.

what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor. Seems indefensible to me, and high time for a price cut on that.
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Snook
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2009, 07:08:11 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
pretty damn good. especially as street price would be still lower. seems like what everyone wanted - more affordable MF is coming to pass.

what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor. Seems indefensible to me, and high time for a price cut on that.

Still to expensive for this economy.
Forget the P65, I doubt many people are even thinking of it. Rental... Maybe.

have you seen the major increase of MFDB for sale lately and the prices???

I think phase will need to come up with another marketing plan.
When they get closer to the 10-15k range, maybe just maybe.

Snook
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2009, 09:02:42 AM »
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Quote from: Snook
Still to expensive for this economy.
Forget the P65, I doubt many people are even thinking of it. Rental... Maybe.

have you seen the major increase of MFDB for sale lately and the prices???

I think phase will need to come up with another marketing plan.
When they get closer to the 10-15k range, maybe just maybe.

Snook

I can only speak for this dealership, but we're doing well with the P65+. When you have a product shipping which is not matched by any of the competition it's likely to sell well.

And we are offering Phase One Refurbished P30+ with a new body/lens and a 1-year warranty and full dealer-support for $14,990.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
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Snook
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2009, 09:31:55 AM »
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Hello Doug, How are you?
Would you mind posting those numbers. The sales numbers of the P65 that is?
I and many others are really interested.
And would you mind telling us, What type of photographers are buying all those P65's....?

I am fine with my P30 for a while. No more megapixels needed. Just missing some good sharp lens and the Leaf shuttter lens Mamiya has been promising for years now.
And that is missing from the Canon Nikon bench also.

Thanks,

Snook
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Fotogman
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 09:47:30 AM »
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The Mamiya DL28 seems to be a much better deal, especially at $2,000.00 less and you get an additional lens. Bigger brighter screen, and I can use the files in many 3rd party software for processing.
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lisa_r
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 09:59:43 AM »
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I don't understand where all of these "refurbs" come from. Were they all actually in need of refurbishment? Are they simply trade-ins?
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narikin
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 10:15:27 AM »
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Quote from: Snook
Would you mind posting those numbers. The sales numbers of the P65 that is?
I and many others are really interested.
now, now, that is not a fair or reasonable request. confidential information, I'm sure.

however I do know 2 photographers who have bought them in the last 3 months, both first time buyers (not upgraders). One switching from 4x5, one from 8x10. They are big name art-photographers, who need/like like large files, and both of whom thought they'd never 'switch'!

I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.


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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 10:45:29 AM »
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I think a phone call to any dealer with a serious intent to buy will get you a price that may not be what is always listed on any public place. Not sure why it is not so hard to actually make that call and find out. Some business modules just work that way and others do not. I see no issue with that business module, many companies work that way. It always sounds like cloak and dagger stuff just pick up the damn phone and find out. Or send a e-mail for a quote. I would never quote my prices to clients in public. Honestly don't see any difference.

Let's face it I ask anyone on this forum what there day rate or creative rate is there would be no reply in public.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 10:46:34 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

kdphotography
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 10:54:36 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
....I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.

The P65+ is a different product not aimed at "competing" with the P30+ or the other Phase backs.  There is a big difference in what we would like a product to be priced at (a deal or a "steal of a deal") and what the market is able to sustain (others perception of value is maybe higher than our own perceived value).  The P65+ is still quite new, and as long as demand is there, I doubt prices will drop much for a bit....

The new promotion is a good start...and perhaps a good way to get more photographers in the door, and also consider other (more $$) Phase backs along the way...
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bcooter
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 11:15:19 AM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
I can only speak for this dealership, but we're doing well with the P65+.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in Phase One's boardroom to try to understand who this camera is aimed at.

I would be fascinated to learn what professional photographers are buying a $40,000 camera back?

I'm lucky because I'm busy, but the list of what we have to produce in a day makes using medium format or anything that slows you down difficult.  This week, every day was a 12 hour shoot day,  with AD's sending jpegs back to the home office to get every shot "approved".

It's not that the economy is bad, it's just that everyone is in a cya mode and when the client says jump everybody up and down the chain just answers how high and I don't know a single person in this industry, photographer, crew or ad agency that isn't  producing twice the work for the same pay they were doing a year ago.

Everybody I know is working from a bottom line number and right now numbers rule so even if a $40,000 camera back would be a better tool, where do you fit that into the estimate?  When I say everybody, I mean every country I've worked, every crew member I know has the same story and if I made a list of photographers that were selling or not using their medium format backs it would be twenty five lines, if I made a list of the client requests crew and photographers are agreeing to, it would make your head spin.

I can  see rental houses buying it (maybe) for the uninitiated that just say give me the biggest camera you got, but for a busy photographer that owns their own equipment  I can't see where those prices make sense.

This year will turn out ok for our studio but we've had to adapt, do more, work faster, negotiate every line item down.

Digital has changed everything.  This year we have renegotiated use and talent fees over a dozen times from past projects dating back to 2004.  Clients that are currently shooting are throwing in extra sessions to build a library of images.  On set digital has changed the way clients are viewing what we shoot.  Whether it's a 12mpx file or 39 mpx. they don't notice, they don't care as long as it looks good on a 30" lcd monitor and it's in focus and has the look they want.

Obviously things will get back to normal, but the climb is going to start out slow, because so many people have cut their prices and pushed the numbers downward, that moving back up is going to take a while.  It's not the end of the world, there is work out there and good people are working, but the ones I know that are working are aggressive and know how to work fast, know how to negotiate and deliver more than the client thought was possible, which is a tall order now that most clients are asking the impossible.  

One client that we shoot a lot of in-store advertising for is even asking for smaller files to be optimized for projection, and lcd play because they find it more cost effective to show a digital slide than a printed poster, so 60mpx isn't even close to being on their radar screen.

One of the reasons I've always bought my own equipment  during the fat times is because I know when things get tight you can still work without worrying about rental costs, though cameras are the last thing I would think about buying in todays market.  Faster easier to use lighting makes sense, quick fast computers are fine, but to just put out the old numbers with the mindset of bill the client isn't a workable solution in todays market.

Right now quality and quanity are expected in equal proportion.

Client's aren't unknowing, in fact I was told yesterday of a large advertiser that is offering a bonus to any employee that can come up with a plan to lower photography costs and since all the numbers are pared to the bone anyway, where does new cameras fall within this type of equation?

I wish Phase well, but  at $40,000, I would think that would be a damn tough sell.

Actually the most effective purchase today is for a photographer to advertise and advertise big, because you can't play to a local, regional, national market.  You have to be pushing worldwide and when I think of dropping 40 grand for anything, it's has to be an advertising campaign, not a piece of equipment.

B
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:18:43 AM by bcooter » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 11:30:01 AM »
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Quote from: Fotogman
The Mamiya DL28 seems to be a much better deal, especially at $2,000.00 less and you get an additional lens. Bigger brighter screen, and I can use the files in many 3rd party software for processing.


Phase One raw files also open up in numerous 3rd party software, and without any need for running them through a de-compression utility first, as some must. Plus you also get to use Capture One, which for many is a preferred software solution to those 3rd party programs.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:54:33 AM by Steve Hendrix/Phase One » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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narikin
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 11:41:52 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I think a phone call to any dealer with a serious intent to buy will get you a price that may not be what is always listed on any public place. Not sure why it is not so hard to actually make that call and find out.
confused - nobody here is asking what the actual best street price of a P65+ is...
what we were discussing was its relative price to the P65+ kit. you can do that list:list or street:street, either way its over $20,000, which is ... an extremely high premium for this product.

I know very well that nobody pays list, for anything anymore, as I'd imagine does everyone else who comes here.


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BJL
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 11:45:04 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
I see Phase have a special offer just out with a P30+ Kit (i.e. with camera body + 80mm + C1pro) for $16995 list.
... more affordable MF is coming to pass.

what this also does is throw into light the insanely high price of the P65+. As a kit that is +/- $22,000 more just for that sensor upgrade, over the P30+ sensor.
Firstly with the release of the P40+ with the new generation of 44x33mm sensor, this P30+ kit pricing probably reflects the discount that must be offered on an older or superseded model. For the true price trend, look at the pricing of new models, like P40+ now (US$20,000 body only?) vs P30+ when it was released.

Secondly, sensor cost dominates MF digital back cost, and sensor size dominates sensor cost, growing far faster than in proportion to area, due to lower yields with larger sizes. And with higher costs goes lower volume and the need for higher markups, pushing prices up even more at the top of the line. So it is not at all surprising to me that the new "biggest and therefore best" P65+ costs so much.


P. S. $40,000 sounds like a lot for a camera, but it is not out of line for the gear costs of many self-employed professionals: a building contractor probably has more invested in truck, tools and such. So the main question is whether spending an extra $20,000 on one back rather than another brings in an enough extra revenue over the lifetime of the back.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:45:45 AM by BJL » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2009, 12:14:21 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
Firstly with the release of the P40+ with the new generation of 44x33mm sensor, this P30+ kit pricing probably reflects the discount that must be offered on an older or superseded model. For the true price trend, look at the pricing of new models, like P40+ now (US$20,000 body only?) vs P30+ when it was released.

Secondly, sensor cost dominates MF digital back cost, and sensor size dominates sensor cost, growing far faster than in proportion to area, due to lower yields with larger sizes. And with higher costs goes lower volume and the need for higher markups, pushing prices up even more at the top of the line. So it is not at all surprising to me that the new "biggest and therefore best" P65+ costs so much.


P. S. $40,000 sounds like a lot for a camera, but it is not out of line for the gear costs of many self-employed professionals: a building contractor probably has more invested in truck, tools and such. So the main question is whether spending an extra $20,000 on one back rather than another brings in an enough extra revenue over the lifetime of the back.


Your not just talking about an extra 20 grand, our talking about an extra 20 grand plus lenses, plus new lesnes to come, plus backups of some kind, plus lighting, grip, computers, drives, software, time (lots and lots of time) and mostly your talking about what you can do with that extra 20 grand . . . hire better crew and pay them a decent wage, put money into promotions, even use that 20 to buy a truck.  Trucks are cheap today.

As far as what it costs Phase, who knows, but since all the medium format makers dropped their prices a minimum of $10,000 what seems like across the board, either they had a lot of inventory or we're charging too much in the first place.

Senosr costs?  Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.

There is want and there is need and I'd love to meet the person that actually needs a 60mpx back.

I'm sure they are there, but I don't know who they are.

B
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ThierryH
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2009, 12:25:53 PM »
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You're right: long ago did I explain that sensor prices are not longer the major cost point of a digital back. When it used to be so at the very beginning of digital, this is not longer the case now, and by far. Count a little 20-25%, rest being R&D and SW costs and some manufacturing costs. This does not mean that the margins are very high, for "normal" priced digital backs.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
Senosr costs?  Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.

B
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 12:27:57 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
confused - nobody here is asking what the actual best street price of a P65+ is...
what we were discussing was its relative price to the P65+ kit. you can do that list:list or street:street, either way its over $20,000, which is ... an extremely high premium for this product.

I know very well that nobody pays list, for anything anymore, as I'd imagine does everyone else who comes here.


Than it begs the question why do people even pay attention to the list price, you know it will not be 20k over what you think is over priced. I care about what amount I have to write the check for, sure I want blindfolds on and my wife not to have a 45 to my head but seriously it what comes out of the bank account that counts. LOL

Seriously not picking on you but we hear this all the time. It costs too much for what it is, well maybe it is but we don't know the real cost to write that check either.
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Snook
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 12:43:22 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
now, now, that is not a fair or reasonable request. confidential information, I'm sure.

however I do know 2 photographers who have bought them in the last 3 months, both first time buyers (not upgraders). One switching from 4x5, one from 8x10. They are big name art-photographers, who need/like like large files, and both of whom thought they'd never 'switch'!

I still think the price of the P65+ is out of order - it should be $10,000 less, when you look at this offer.

If I was a BIG time art shooter shooting 8X10. I would never shoot Digital. Kind of ruins the 8X10 deal.
When your shooting like 2-3 shots per image. Definitely better to shoot film...

Snook

PS. I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handfull of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's?Huh

I am pretty sure people would rather rent these days if they could then dump 45,000 on something that may worth less than half shortly after purchase. And with no design change at all.
Seems they are trying to squeeze that lemon LCD screen and Casing.

Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?


« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 12:48:54 PM by Snook » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 01:05:50 PM »
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Quote from: Snook
If I was a BIG time art shooter shooting 8X10. I would never shoot Digital. Kind of ruins the 8X10 deal.
When your shooting like 2-3 shots per image. Definitely better to shoot film...

Snook

PS. I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handfull of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's?Huh

I am pretty sure people would rather rent these days if they could then dump 45,000 on something that may worth less than half shortly after purchase. And with no design change at all.
Seems they are trying to squeeze that lemon LCD screen and Casing.

Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?


Snook:

We have sold many. That's as much as you'll get from me, but I will state unequivically that the amount is accurate.  

And just last month, we delivered a P65+ to an 8x10 shooter. He is very pleased with the results.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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lisa_r
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 02:21:09 PM »
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Clearly $40K is a lot, but isn't that what these high end backs always cost? I think one of my assistants paid $45K a year or two ago for a 40mp H2 with two lenses. $45K!

Now there's 60mp on a larger chip for $40K. Sounds about right to me. Of course I am in not going to buy one at that price, and I don't know what the hell I would do with all that data anyway, as there is not much data that actually sticks to a printed page, now is there? I mean, how much actual data is there on a 16x20 PRINT? Anyone know? 3, 5, 10mp? 20?

Anyway I think it's interesting that so many people who say they would have no use for this amount of data are so upset about the price. (I mean, the price of something which you have no intention of buying and would have no real use for.) Are you this upset about the price of the a Lamborghini? Of a beach front house in West Palm Beach? My dealer says they are selling quite a few of these 60mp monsters too, so who cares?

Anyway, speaking of who can afford it, I know a fairly successful shooter here in NY who gets $14K/day to shoot mediocre catalog work for companies such as Aeropostale. So, a $40K back is just 3 days work for him. I'm just saying, this pricing does not twist everybody into knots. Just some of us ;-)



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narikin
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 02:45:13 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Than it begs the question why do people even pay attention to the list price, you know it will not be 20k over what you think is over priced.
Seriously not picking on you but we hear this all the time. It costs too much for what it is, well maybe it is but we don't know the real cost to write that check either.
I really don't get what you are not understanding about this. We can see the price of the newly announced P30+ kit and I know the street price (after weeks of haggling with multiple dealers) of a P65+, and it IS $20,000+ extra. end of story. It's really not complicated: same camera body, same lens, same back, different sensor chip installed, $20,000+ more to pay. ok?

Quote from: Snook
I was not trying to put anybody on the spot, But seriuosly who the hell is buying the P65's? Yeh I am sure a handful of people. But who are they and what for. And more importantly with what freakin len's?Huh

Well so far we have gotten one guys saying he knows of a guy who bought one. Was that becasue he was obliged to after ordering it before it came out and then could not back out?
I used to make the mistake of thinking that MY needs were what everyone else's needs were. They aren't. There are plenty of photographers out there whose requirements are different to mine or yours.

The TWO people I know who have bought a P65+ need serious megapixels, and good luck to them. The price of this back is less than just one of their images sold in an art gallery, (and they sell plenty) so its not a cost issue, as we could have surmised from anyone who shoots multiple 8x10's and then scans, pays pros digital technicians to composite and work on them: its a high cost production, and a digital back quickly pays for itself.

There are plenty of people out there who need 60Mp resolution, and more. When it hits 100Mp expect the same round of arguments, and people insisting that their 30Mp/40Mp is plenty enough (maybe it is for them) and who in their right mind could want 100Mp. Different horses, different courses. be happy they exist, it will drive down the cost of your needs, and when you upgrade to a P65+ refurb in 3 years, will find it affordable!
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