Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Phase P30+ offer $16995 with camera  (Read 13007 times)
Don Libby
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726


Iron Creek Photography


WWW
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 02:52:57 PM »
ReplyReply

I kept telling myself not to say anything that I don't have a dog in this fight however the "demand" (and that's the way I took the it as a whole) to provide numbers of sold pushed me over the edge.

First off what business is it of anyone as to who is buying what.  I've seen the P65 a couple times and personally know of "several" individuals who have bought the P65.  Good for them.  More power to them. If it fits their business model and can afford it why the hell not!  Am I going to get one to fit on my Cambo?  Yes.  When? It's nobody's business except my dealer and me.

I think we need to get off this band wagon and pursue other and much better topics that who has the biggest (fill in the blank) in the school yard.  What are we 8th graders?

Yes the equipment we use has a lot to do with it just as our own talent; after all without talent you really have nothing.

While I have nothing to truly base this on I believe that over 99% of Phase customers are very satisfied with the product they own.  I also believe that there are professional sh-- stirrers out there that want nothing else than to sit at their computers and malign a company or individual.  To them I say get over it and get a life.

Snook - The rant is not addressed to you personally other than your "request" for units sold pushed me over the edge.  This is every much like me asking another landscape photographer to cough up their revenue statements - that's between them and the tax man.

Okay I feel better now and can go back to processing some work.

My best to all

Don

Oh yea I know I'm going to get flack on this....
Logged

tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 03:05:51 PM »
ReplyReply

OFF TOPIC
Quote from: Iron Creek
...
Just took a look at your blog. You are talking about a new groundglass for the WRS. Is this a Cambo groundglass or a 3rd party? what kind of groundglass is it? Thanks!
/OFF TOPIC
Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 2791


WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 03:33:52 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: lisa_r
Now there's 60mp on a larger chip for $40K. Sounds about right to me. Of course I am in not going to buy one at that price, and I don't know what the hell I would do with all that data anyway, as there is not much data that actually sticks to a printed page, now is there? I mean, how much actual data is there on a 16x20 PRINT? Anyone know? 3, 5, 10mp? 20?

There are a surprising number of applications where 60 megapixels is not enough, but will have to do because it's the best single shot solution there is.

One very specific example: I've just been accepted to a photos-only gallery on Lincoln Rd. in South Beach which displays very few prints less than 30x40 or less than $4000 and each artist has 1-5 prints. Can you make a 30x40 from a 22mp dSLR? Absolutely yes. It will even look very sharp and detailed to most people if not compared directly to a higher res image. However, when someone walks into that gallery and the huge prints all hang side-by-side the difference between something like a 1Ds II/III and a P40+/P65+ becomes very important for images where resolution is a visual component like landscapes or environmental fashion shots. It's not as important as the quality of your imagery, but it's more than a tie-breaker, and for better or for worse the sales-people often reference the incredible detail of the shots which contain it (a lot easier for them to 'sell' than how the image makes you feel).

We could argue all day about what DPI is required but for simplicity I'll pick 300dpi.
- A 16x20 at 300dpi is 28 megapixels of uncropped data
- A 20x30 at 300dpi is 54 megapixels of uncropped data
- A 30x40 at 300dpi is 108 megapixels of uncropped data

Add a crop, a rotation, correct the perspective, or correct lens distortion, or start pushing the file hard in post (dramatic effects) and the requirements can quickly jump. For instance a 15% crop on each side is a 28% drop in resolution.

Again, I'll be the first to point out that even 100 dpi can look pretty good, and that not every image benefits from razor sharp detail. But then the high end which Medium Format plays in is not usually content with "pretty good". Whether the extra cost is worth it to you is a very personal decision, so please don't project your feeling on this onto everyone else.

And of course the 65+ also has the larger sensor, a bit higher dynamic range than the 20/21/25/30/45, a digital horizon-meter, in-back ratings, composition grids, b+w viewing in the field, a built in flip down fw-cover, and Sensor+ for situations where you need higher ISO or don't want to deal with the large files but don't want to carry/learn/deal-with a second platform. So the resolution is not the only benefit.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:49:33 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Don Libby
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726


Iron Creek Photography


WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 03:39:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: tho_mas
OFF TOPIC
Just took a look at your blog. You are talking about a new groundglass for the WRS. Is this a Cambo groundglass or a 3rd party? what kind of groundglass is it? Thanks!
/OFF TOPIC

Tho Mas

I'm speaking of the WDS-619.  Still haven't gotten yet as I'm also waiting for the additional lens.

Thanks for asking

Don
Logged

lisa_r
Guest
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 03:44:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Hey Doug, thanks. Don't mean to argue with anyone here, and clearly big prints benefit of from more data...but what I am talking about is what ends up actually VISIBLE ON THE PRINTED PAGE, not the size of the input file...
Logged
tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 03:45:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Iron Creek
I'm speaking of the WDS-619.  Still haven't gotten yet
ah, okay - thank you! Just asking because at Photokina the Cambo guys told me they will look for a new groundglass as the WDS619 is quite dark.
I've ordered 2 lumigrid groundglasses from sheetfilm.be ... but still waiting for them. I'll keep you in the loop...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:45:53 PM by tho_mas » Logged
Snook
Guest
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 03:46:15 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Iron Creek
I kept telling myself not to say anything that I don't have a dog in this fight however the "demand" (and that's the way I took the it as a whole) to provide numbers of sold pushed me over the edge.

First off what business is it of anyone as to who is buying what.  I've seen the P65 a couple times and personally know of "several" individuals who have bought the P65.  Good for them.  More power to them. If it fits their business model and can afford it why the hell not!  Am I going to get one to fit on my Cambo?  Yes.  When? It's nobody's business except my dealer and me.

I think we need to get off this band wagon and pursue other and much better topics that who has the biggest (fill in the blank) in the school yard.  What are we 8th graders?

Yes the equipment we use has a lot to do with it just as our own talent; after all without talent you really have nothing.

While I have nothing to truly base this on I believe that over 99% of Phase customers are very satisfied with the product they own.  I also believe that there are professional sh-- stirrers out there that want nothing else than to sit at their computers and malign a company or individual.  To them I say get over it and get a life.

Snook - The rant is not addressed to you personally other than your "request" for units sold pushed me over the edge.  This is every much like me asking another landscape photographer to cough up their revenue statements - that's between them and the tax man.

Okay I feel better now and can go back to processing some work.

My best to all

Don

Oh yea I know I'm going to get flack on this....

Don I am sorry you feel that way and maybe you are Old School..:+}
I absolutely think you are wrong and it is a great idea to know how many numbers are sold, how could that possibly be so strange and secondly how could it so easily "throw" you over the edge. Be careful by the way b/c some of the edges in your photography are pretty high and there might not be anyway back..:+]

I think anybody could find out How many Canons,Mercedes,Laptops were sold each year and it is very important information.
When you come down off that ledge could you please explain further why it through you for spin?? seriuosly.

I truly believe that a lot of the Megapixel crap is WAY over hyped up and the P65 shows that. Who the Hell needs not wants, mind you, that many megapixels.
I truly feel it is a legitmate question. After all I am a PhaseOne and C-1 user.
I have read all over and even notice in my images both with Canon and Phase that the Lens are where we come to a dead end at the moment. I am not shooting LARGE format so it maybe different if someone wants to correct me.

Please don't jump and by all means this is a discussion forum that is supposed to be bias.

I still leave the question out there since this is One of and the only forum about MFD photography that I know about and some what trust.

It was not meant to make you nor Doug angry. I have a lot of repsect for Doug, but that does not change my opinion or my curiosity...
Thanks for understanding
Snook

PS. Doug I do undertsand your printing theory but at what cost. Have you done any uprezing of a P45+ file and printed it at the Native P65 image size images? Can you actually see a difference in Print?
I am not going to get into the arguement of yes maybe people  "want" more megapixels vs the actually benefits and print benefits.
 My Line of work is Fashion, Beauty, Catalogue and Advertising and to tell you the truth I have never had any complaints about the 1DsMII.

Again can some one jump in here and let us know if the 65 megapixel are going to just show more FLAWS with the current lens line up for most camera outfits?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:56:56 PM by Snook » Logged
Professional
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 306


« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 04:10:39 PM »
ReplyReply

There are some people "NEED" more megapixels, and there are some people "WANT" more megapixels, so we can't put all people in same league.
to me, i always "WANT" more megapixels, i know 8 and 10 and 20mp are more than enough for needs, but for wants it is never enough.

Here is a dealer selling Hasselblad in lowest prices these days, you can get H3DII-39mp kit with about $17k, i got it about $21k about 4 months ago, and the 31mp is cheapest, i feel so sad that the 50mp is coming around $21k, so i feel sad and i want to sell my 39mp about $20k to fund for 50mp, i now that 60mp is coming soon, but the 50mp owners can upgrade with difference prices only, but i can't because i have 39mp not 50mp.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 04:11:32 PM by Professional » Logged
PHOTO ZARA
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39



« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 04:22:12 PM »
ReplyReply

it could be that P65+ is selling good probably not to its full potential until the price gets reconfigured

but I doubt very much if professionals are among majority of P65+ customers at this point

it looks to me until we see 60mp from Hassy in September
nothing is going to change P65+ price even though this was a very good
time and opportunity for Phase One to RAM through anybodies particularly
Hasselblad sales!!!

the fact is they will learn their lesson sooner or later
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 04:24:02 PM by PHOTO ZARA » Logged
Don Libby
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726


Iron Creek Photography


WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 06:05:07 PM »
ReplyReply

Okay taking another break from work..

A couple thoughts have been running through my feeble brain:

   How is it okay on one hand to trash talk a company's price for their product and at the same time be willing to fight tooth and nail to get the highest price possible for our own product?  What's the difference?  

   And, what about the discussions as to how much is too many megapixels?  Digital photography isn't that old.  Okay I am "old school" as I remember beta, 8 track as well as digital cameras that stored images on floppy disks.  

   The messages I've been reading here are all strongly worded    personal opinions that may or not have a bearing on the    marketplace.  Just because you personally don't need a boost in    megapixels doesn't mean that there's no need or want of them;    after all that's your opinion.  Just because a person has an    opinion of a product doesn't give them the right to obtain    information that is really none of their concern.  Who really cares    how many widgets a company sells in a year.  The major    question and concern should be does the company make a    product that is good enough for your needs and will be around in    the long run to provide you service should you require it.  This    kind of goes back to the first thought.

I shoot landscape and like to produce what I call in your face images.  By that I mean I regularly print in the neighborhood of 30x60 both on paper and canvas.  I not only want but demand the highest amount of clarity that I can get/buy.  Currently I'm shooting with a P45+ however I can see an upgrade in the future.  I'll do my due diligence when the time is right and base my decision on that - not what I've been reading.

I will admit that I'm old school.  I truly believe an artist, and yes I will include the likes of Leaf, Phase One and others should be able to except a reasonable return for their work just as we photographers should.  I did not pay full price for either my P30+ when I first brought it nor for the P45+ when I upgraded, neither did I pay full price for my 645 or Cambo RS 1000.  It's called the art of negotiation; much like when I have a client or person walk off the street and want to buy a $3000 piece of art.

That's it break is over back to work.

Don
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:56:05 PM by Iron Creek » Logged

Don Libby
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726


Iron Creek Photography


WWW
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 06:06:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: tho_mas
ah, okay - thank you! Just asking because at Photokina the Cambo guys told me they will look for a new groundglass as the WDS619 is quite dark.
I've ordered 2 lumigrid groundglasses from sheetfilm.be ... but still waiting for them. I'll keep you in the loop...


Thanks for the information as I hadn't heard that.  I'll share what I see when I get the glass.

Cheers

Don
Logged

Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 2791


WWW
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2009, 07:52:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Snook
I think anybody could find out How many Canons,Mercedes,Laptops were sold each year and it is very important information.
When you come down off that ledge could you please explain further why it through you for spin?? seriuosly.

[...]

I have read all over and even notice in my images both with Canon and Phase that the Lens are where we come to a dead end at the moment. I am not shooting LARGE format so it maybe different if someone wants to correct me.

[...]

It was not meant to make you nor Doug angry. I have a lot of repsect for Doug, but that does not change my opinion or my curiosity...

[...]

PS. Doug I do undertsand your printing theory but at what cost. Have you done any uprezing of a P45+ file and printed it at the Native P65 image size images? Can you actually see a difference in Print?
I am not going to get into the arguement of yes maybe people  "want" more megapixels vs the actually benefits and print benefits.

The better Mamiya/Hasselblad/Contax lenses (generally the normal and longer focal lengths and macro lenses) are razor sharp with the P65+. The weaker lenses (generally the wide angle lenses) show some weakness with a 65+ (built in sw lens correction eliminates most of this weakness but I won't claim it's not there to start with). On a technical camera the good lenses (nearly any of the latest series) are rock solid with the 65+.

Uprez the 45+ to native 65+ and it will look damn good. But uprez the 65+ the same amount and the relative difference remains. Big prints, moderate to large crops, or a lot of post and the difference is not subtle.

As Reichman was saying in his review a ways back, when you look at a massive print which isn't just "sharp" but looks like a contact print it can be breath taking. Just as the people at the gigipixel project: http://www.gigapxl.org/

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
carstenw
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 581



« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 11:54:33 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: dougpetersonci
The better Mamiya/Hasselblad/Contax lenses (generally the normal and longer focal lengths and macro lenses) are razor sharp with the P65+. The weaker lenses (generally the wide angle lenses) show some weakness with a 65+ (built in sw lens correction eliminates most of this weakness but I won't claim it's not there to start with).

Doug, do you know anyone with a good copy of the Contax 35mm f/3.5 who is shooting on a P65+? I am curious how it holds up... I have some Adox CHS 25 from this afternoon which I need to develop which will give some clues, but I expect the P65+ to push harder still.
Logged

Fotogman
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2009, 10:54:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Phase One raw files also open up in numerous 3rd party software, and without any need for running them through a de-compression utility first, as some must. Plus you also get to use Capture One, which for many is a preferred software solution to those 3rd party programs.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

On my DL28 I don't have to use decompression software. It shoots faster, has better live video when I use it on my Sinar, AND you didn't address the $2000.00 less. I think you'll find many people prefer to use Lightroom as opposed to C1.

Just my two cents.
Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 2791


WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2009, 11:49:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: carstenw
Doug, do you know anyone with a good copy of the Contax 35mm f/3.5 who is shooting on a P65+? I am curious how it holds up... I have some Adox CHS 25 from this afternoon which I need to develop which will give some clues, but I expect the P65+ to push harder still.

Gogopix on GetDPI.com is one of our customers shooting a Contax 65+.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5129


« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2009, 03:19:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: bcooter
Your not just talking about an extra 20 grand, our talking about an extra 20 grand plus lenses, plus new lesnes to come, plus backups of some kind, plus lighting, grip, computers, drives, software, time (lots and lots of time)
We were talking about the difference in price between different backs for the same system (discounted P30+ vs new P65+); the lens costs and such are about the same either way.

Quote from: bcooter
Sensor costs?  Who knows, at least nobody outside of the secret world of medium format making and selling, but I find it hard to swallow that an extra few mm's costs $20,000 more considering it's the same box, everything goes in.
It is not a few extra mm: from P30+ or P40+ to P65+ is roughly doubling the sensor area, which due to decreasing yields will more than double the cost. Low volume items like DMF backs inevitably have significant mark-ups along the way, too, so each extra dollar of cost at the sensor factory gate adds several dollars to the retail price.  Nor are the fabrication costs of sensors and other IC's such a deep secret; there is plenty to be read on the subject.

I do not understand how you can so firmly declare that the price difference is not justified by cost differences when you acknowledge knowing little or nothing about those costs.
Logged
David Klepacki
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 185


« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: dougpetersonci
There are a surprising number of applications where 60 megapixels is not enough, but will have to do because it's the best single shot solution there is.

I have to agree with Doug.  People often forget how much software effort is needed to complete an image from a Bayer sensor, which only captures one color at each pixel site.  To form the complete image, the raw conversion software must estimate the missing two-thirds of the information that it was not able to physically capture.  So, for a large sensor like the P65+, it must estimate 120MP of missing pixel data from the 60MP that it actually captures.  

Looking at it another way ... the P65+ while a 60MP sensor, can only capture 15MP of Red information ... and through the magic of their CaptureOne software, it is able to estimate the missing (whopping?!) 45MP of Red pixel information .... and the same is true of the Blue information.

I think there is room for still more megapixels.  15MP of Red or Blue information is not that great.

Remember, there was a time when someone thought that 640K of memory is all that anybody with a computer would ever need.  Likewise,  I think you will see sensors with more megapixels and more color information in the future.

David
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 08:39:05 PM by David Klepacki » Logged
shutay
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


WWW
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2009, 10:31:07 PM »
ReplyReply

Some years ago I was told of an effort to use Active Matrix TFT display manufacturing techniques to produce large format single capture sensors for medium format all the way up to large format, conceivably, even 8x10 inch. The idea was that with Active Matrix TFT design and manufacturing becoming so mature thanks to laptop and flat panel display sales, they should be able to make quite a nice large sensor very easily using the same techniques. If you search for patents, you will see in fact that there are already several patents on doing this, but so far, I have only heard of these types of sensors used for digital X-ray machines. Maybe it is only a matter of time until it becomes viable for photography???

BTW, anybody noticed the new pricing on the Hasselblad website for the H3DII-31 since this weekend or so? EUR 9.999 but without a lens. That works out to about USD 13,640.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 10:32:07 PM by shutay » Logged
PHOTO ZARA
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39



« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2009, 11:53:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: shutay
BTW, anybody noticed the new pricing on the Hasselblad website for the H3DII-31 since this weekend or so? EUR 9.999 but without a lens. That works out to about USD 13,640.

I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000

they don't only want to survive, they already did that.

they want to lead period!!!




Logged
arashm
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2009, 07:52:45 AM »
ReplyReply

I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000

And I bet your right, I have a feeling there is one more round of big price drops before end of summer!
am
Logged
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad