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Author Topic: Phase P30+ offer $16995 with camera  (Read 12114 times)
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2009, 08:11:07 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
I bet Hasselblad will be the first to brake below US$ 10,000

And I bet your right, I have a feeling there is one more round of big price drops before end of summer!
am

Phase One already offers several options below $10,000. P20, P20+, P21, P21+, and P30s can be purchased at the $7000-$9000 with warranty and dealer support. Anyone who dismisses a P20/21 because of the "low resolution" (16 and 18 megapixels respectively) should see how their files compare to a top-tier dSLR when blown up or pushed around.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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arashm
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« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2009, 09:15:20 AM »
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"Phase One already offers several options below $10,000. P20, P20+, P21, P21+, and P30s can be purchased at the $7000-$9000 with warranty and dealer support."

Hi Doug
$7-9K
is that with the AFD 3 or back alone?
While I don't at all disagree with you on the P21+ (which I have shot), I think there is a difference between it and the H3D2-31 or the P30+
thanks
am
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bcooter
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« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2009, 09:32:49 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
While I don't at all disagree with you on the P21+ (which I have shot), I think there is a difference between it and the H3D2-31 or the P30+
thanks
am


The difference is about 1/3 a stop,  $3,000 (and falling fast).

Wait a month a you can probably buy both.


B
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 09:47:10 AM by bcooter » Logged
clawery
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« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2009, 02:58:21 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
The difference is about 1/3 a stop,  $3,000 (and falling fast).

Wait a month a you can probably buy both.


B


Take a look at an older test we did with a P21, P30+, P45+ and 1Ds Mk III.  
http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me)
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mcfoto
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« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2009, 09:56:25 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
The difference is about 1/3 a stop,  $3,000 (and falling fast).

Wait a month a you can probably buy both.


B

From what I have been told by pretty much all the reps for the 4 DB makers the total sales world wide is between 5000-6000 units. I do not know the breakdown. Here is the challenge drop the prices & increase total world wide sales? In the past year prices have dropped but the 5DII, Sony FF & D3X have entered the market. In Australia the 5DII is still flying out the door. I too am sitting on the side lines keeping my Mamiya kit while shooting with the 1DSIII.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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narikin
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2009, 08:12:45 AM »
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it's great we are seeing a downward growth of the market as these (perfectly good) 2nd + 3rd hand backs move into the hands of newer owners who would not afford/pay $25-$35k.

those who first bought these backs have upgraded and put in more $ to be on 50 or 60mp (myself included)
and our old P21 /P30 / P45 backs are now in the hands of those who used to shoot (eg) weddings or landscapes on a 1Ds2 but now have upgraded to a mamiya or contax for a similar price. I bet quite a few of those folks had a Mamiya or Contax 645 in their cupboard that they used to use anyways.

I do think a new camera body is badly needed to spur growth, one with multi zone AF, where everything is powered by the same one battery. hopefully the new mamiya-phaes one will have some of these attributes.
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harlemshooter
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2009, 09:02:28 AM »
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i was going to purchase the p65+ but have elected to go with the s2 after hearing the positive report from a friend (who also uses phase backs) who tested a prototype:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek

if the p65+ were 30k, i'd likely think thrice about the decision.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 09:05:45 AM by harlemshooter » Logged
clawery
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« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2009, 02:02:54 PM »
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Quote from: harlemshooter
i was going to purchase the p65+ but have elected to go with the s2 after hearing the positive report from a friend (who also uses phase backs) who tested a prototype:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek

if the p65+ were 30k, i'd likely think thrice about the decision.

I might reconsider going with the S2 since it is still not shipping.  It may have taken a bit of time, but at least the P65+ is shipping!

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me)
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jing q
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« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2009, 02:31:09 PM »
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prices are just going to go down man.
it's a good time to sit and wait.
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harlemshooter
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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2009, 01:03:13 PM »
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interesting response from a phase one dealer:-)  i do agree with your thrust - one in the hand is worth two in the bush.


Quote from: clawery
I might reconsider going with the S2 since it is still not shipping.  It may have taken a bit of time, but at least the P65+ is shipping!

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 01:03:57 PM by harlemshooter » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2009, 07:02:30 PM »
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Quote from: jing q
prices are just going to go down man.
it's a good time to sit and wait.


I believe most of the price reactions have occurred. Go back a year and medium format was $15,000 - $20,000 higher than high-end 35mm. Now it starts at $6,000 - $8,000 higher. There won't be much further reduction - if any - from any medium format companies that intend to stay in business.

So if your intention is to buy at some point, now is as good a time as any if your target is in sight.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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bcooter
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« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2009, 11:27:34 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
I believe most of the price reactions have occurred. Go back a year and medium format was $15,000 - $20,000 higher than high-end 35mm. Now it starts at $6,000 - $8,000 higher. There won't be much further reduction - if any - from any medium format companies that intend to stay in business.

So if your intention is to buy at some point, now is as good a time as any if your target is in sight.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Steve,

I don't understand your numbers and medium format is all about numbers, right?

For a Phase P65+ at stated retail prices your talking approx. $31,500 more than a Nikon D3x.  That 4 and 1/2 times the price of the top of the line phase vs. top of the line Nikon, 5 times the price of a top of the  line Canon.

For a top of the line 50mpx Hasselblad it's maybe $10,000 less than the Phase but of course that's still 4 times the price of the Nikon and once you build a system we're back to 5 times the price.

Maybe your prices of $15,000-$20,000 are correct when your talking previous generation medium format models in the 30 to 39mpx range, but that equipment if falling out of the trees lightly used at almost even up Nikon/Canon prices.

What I really don't understand in your reply is the mention "intend to stay in business".  We've all heard this talk of some maker(s) going away for years now, on this site, on this forum and from dealers and reps for a few years.

If I was in the medium format camera making business, this is the last phrase I would use, even if it was true, even if I had "insider" information, as it doesn't take much to spook anyone in the market for anything of high expense and mentioning this can become a self fullfilling prophecy.   Look at Chrysler and GM.


B
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 11:29:10 PM by bcooter » Logged
SeanBK
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2009, 10:00:22 AM »
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Just check out Pre-certifed list on Hasselbladusa site. H3D-31 w/o lens for $9,995 which is $7000 less than Phase One 31MP product. In other words Phase One wants to charge 70% more than the established system, using the same sensor and YES, IT IS NOT H3D II-31 and it is used, but still the 31MP sensor. Also see 22MP backs @ $7995 & H3D 39 @ $12995. All I am saying is $16995 for Phase One back & not a proven camera is exhorbitant.... Compared to Hassey's offering.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2009, 10:33:24 AM »
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Quote from: SeanBK
Just check out Pre-certifed list on Hasselbladusa site. H3D-31 w/o lens for $9,995 which is $7000 less than Phase One 31MP product. In other words Phase One wants to charge 70% more than the established system, using the same sensor and YES, IT IS NOT H3D II-31 and it is used, but still the 31MP sensor. Also see 22MP backs @ $7995 & H3D 39 @ $12995. All I am saying is $16995 for Phase One back & not a proven camera is exhorbitant.... Compared to Hassey's offering.


Wow since when was Phase not a established system and the body not proven. Your also comparing used to new. Sorry nice argument but this is Apples to Oranges. Just FYI i just bought a used Phase P30+ Body and Lens for slightly less than what Hassy is offering in used. Please compare new prices , used truly means absolutely nothing except some ones willingness to take a bath on there gear. E-bay and forum prices are not to be judged as a real market indicator on used because some folks refuse too lose money and some are very desperate to unload there gear. I consider my purchase lucky and the willingness of the seller to let it go fast but not a indicator as what used prices really are. Used prices are a worthless argument because of this , go by new if Phase is more it is more big deal, just depends on what system you want just like buying a car. But going by price alone on camera and back is not how you decide on this. Your buying a system with several lenses and I suggest adding that all up on each system your thinking about in total and see how the numbers crunch up. Sure one back and camera maybe cheaper but 5 lenses that go with it can be a totally different story plus all the intangibles one considers on a system
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SeanBK
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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2009, 10:46:50 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Wow since when was Phase not a established system and the body not proven. Your also comparing used to new. Sorry nice argument but this is Apples to Oranges. Just FYI i just bought a used Phase P30+ Body and Lens for slightly less than what Hassy is offering in used. Please compare new prices , used truly means absolutely nothing except some ones willingness to take a bath on there gear. E-bay and forum prices are not to be judged as a real market indicator on used because some folks refuse too lose money and some are very desperate to unload there gear. I consider my purchase lucky and the willingness of the seller to let it go fast but not a indicator as what used prices really are. Used prices are a worthless argument because of this , go by new if Phase is more it is more big deal, just depends on what system you want just like buying a car. But going by price alone on camera and back is not how you decide on this. Your buying a system with several lenses and I suggest adding that all up on each system your thinking about in total and see how the numbers crunch up. Sure one back and camera maybe cheaper but 5 lenses that go with it can be a totally different story plus all the intangibles one considers on a system

 Guy, Phase One CAMERA is not an established system, when one compares it to Hasselblad. Phase One camera IS ver 1.00... Period. One does not need to buy ALL the lenses in a system to do the job. BH sells  (for your benefit) H3D II 31 for $13,995 which is less then $16995 what Phase One offers as per O.P
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2009, 12:00:18 PM »
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Quote from: SeanBK
Guy, Phase One CAMERA is not an established system, when one compares it to Hasselblad. Phase One camera IS ver 1.00... Period. One does not need to buy ALL the lenses in a system to do the job. BH sells  (for your benefit) H3D II 31 for $13,995 which is less then $16995 what Phase One offers as per O.P


Not sure how you can say that it is actually the third version of this body AFD, AFDII and now AFDIII exactly he same as the Phase brand. If you want to point it out like that is not the Hassy H version 2 being HD and HDII. Not really seeing your point here Mamiya has been around for 35 years as a system and Hassy even longer . Now 35 years is a long time to not call it established. Now how many Pro's have one lens, come on lets get real here at the end of the day you one would consider there system complete it would be about 4 lenses even the hobbyist with very little means would have more than 1 or 2 lenses. Bottom line it is what is in the bag that counts be it you bought a lens today and/or another one next year it is still a system you buy into. Now if you want a Hassy from B&H than buy it for that price , no one said things are equal pricing in life and if Phase feels there system is worth more than that is there strategy. Hassy is obviously giving it away to get people in the door it's called loss leader and every grocery store in America does this. Hassy wants you to get in and buy lenses and into the system. Good for them that is there marketing strategy but you can't fault Sinar, Leaf or Phase for having a different marketing strategy. You may not like it but trust me do the math on Hassy and Phase with 4 lenses the same focal length. It becomes a very close call on the money side but they are different systems and for some a leaf shutter system is not in the cards and others it is. I don't want a leaf system so there is no other choice except Phase or Contax in focal plane system. At that point how do you compare Contax is not made anymore. Now for leaf shutter you have Sinar and Hassy systems. Sorry but this is how you compare systems at least something that resembles the same Apple. Honestly your argument here makes no sense but believe what you will but I find these type of comments you make as being very biased. Myself i would buy either system depending on my need and I choice Phase because of my needs. Price is completely a secondary purchase decision. Makes no sense to buy a Hassy because it is cheaper if I need a focal plane system and makes zero sense to buy a Phase system if you need a leaf system unless you mixed and matched and that is a option some folks have done Phase back , Hassy H2 body. Now if you think you would pay 16995 to any dealer you want I am sure they would be glad to take full price for a Phase but it is a listing price and the way there strategy is call a dealer and get a quote. Different strategies on how they do business pick your poison but something you completely failed to point out is will B&H send you a loaner overnight, Not going to happen and even a customer for 35 years they would laugh at me. What you failed also to bring up is the service and support and that counts for something. You want to buy on price alone be my guest but for myself there is a lot more at stake than just price. I'm sorry but this is how you decide on what your needs are and price is very secondary but in the end does count. But certainly not the primary factor of what you need as a shooter.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 12:01:55 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Snook
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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2009, 12:21:04 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Not sure how you can say that it is actually the third version of this body AFD, AFDII and now AFDIII exactly he same as the Phase brand. If you want to point it out like that is not the Hassy H version 2 being HD and HDII. Not really seeing your point here Mamiya has been around for 35 years as a system and Hassy even longer . Now 35 years is a long time to not call it established. Now how many Pro's have one lens, come on lets get real here at the end of the day you one would consider there system complete it would be about 4 lenses even the hobbyist with very little means would have more than 1 or 2 lenses. Bottom line it is what is in the bag that counts be it you bought a lens today and/or another one next year it is still a system you buy into. Now if you want a Hassy from B&H than buy it for that price , no one said things are equal pricing in life and if Phase feels there system is worth more than that is there strategy. Hassy is obviously giving it away to get people in the door it's called loss leader and every grocery store in America does this. Hassy wants you to get in and buy lenses and into the system. Good for them that is there marketing strategy but you can't fault Sinar, Leaf or Phase for having a different marketing strategy. You may not like it but trust me do the math on Hassy and Phase with 4 lenses the same focal length. It becomes a very close call on the money side but they are different systems and for some a leaf shutter system is not in the cards and others it is. I don't want a leaf system so there is no other choice except Phase or Contax in focal plane system. At that point how do you compare Contax is not made anymore. Now for leaf shutter you have Sinar and Hassy systems. Sorry but this is how you compare systems at least something that resembles the same Apple. Honestly your argument here makes no sense but believe what you will but I find these type of comments you make as being very biased. Myself i would buy either system depending on my need and I choice Phase because of my needs. Price is completely a secondary purchase decision. Makes no sense to buy a Hassy because it is cheaper if I need a focal plane system and makes zero sense to buy a Phase system if you need a leaf system unless you mixed and matched and that is a option some folks have done Phase back , Hassy H2 body. Now if you think you would pay 16995 to any dealer you want I am sure they would be glad to take full price for a Phase but it is a listing price and the way there strategy is call a dealer and get a quote. Different strategies on how they do business pick your poison but something you completely failed to point out is will B&H send you a loaner overnight, Not going to happen and even a customer for 35 years they would laugh at me. What you failed also to bring up is the service and support and that counts for something. You want to buy on price alone be my guest but for myself there is a lot more at stake than just price. I'm sorry but this is how you decide on what your needs are and price is very secondary but in the end does count. But certainly not the primary factor of what you need as a shooter.

Hey Guy I just saw your post and was wondering something. Why would you "want" a focal plane shutter?
I am a mamiya guy for about 20 years now and was happy back in the days when they had Leaf shutter lens. Actually they were the only lens that went on my camera except for the 120 Macro and 110 2.8
Even on my Pentax 6x7 system I had all the leaf shutter lens.
I have been totally dissapointed with mamiya not coming up with atleast 1 leafshutter lens that they have been promising for years now!!!
Or even an adaptor for the old lens would be great!!!
Also I have been tempted to go with Hassleblad but do not want to hassle with selling off everything specially when the prices have dropped so much that alot of people seem to be dumping their MF stuff at the moment....
Also I never had the AFD just the ProTL , but I find the AFDII to III was a MINOR update and not worth beans if you ask me. What were they thinking?
They are kind of like Phase becasue the upgrades seem to be hardly anything???
Let's face it, Phase need a facelift whether they like it or not.
Also if they are going to be stubborn and NOT drop their prices, they might go down with the ship in flames.

Well not to get off subject here but I feel PhaseOne/Mamiya are making a BIG marketing mistake at the moment.

Hasslblad's are looking pretty good at the moment if you ask me. Although with a phaseOne back..:+}

Just my opinion.

Snook


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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »
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Quote from: Snook
Hey Guy I just saw your post and was wondering something. Why would you "want" a focal plane shutter?
I am a mamiya guy for about 20 years now and was happy back in the days when they had Leaf shutter lens. Actually they were the only lens that went on my camera except for the 120 Macro and 110 2.8
Even on my Pentax 6x7 system I had all the leaf shutter lens.
I have been totally dissapointed with mamiya not coming up with atleast 1 leafshutter lens that they have been promising for years now!!!
Or even an adaptor for the old lens would be great!!!
Also I have been tempted to go with Hassleblad but do not want to hassle with selling off everything specially when the prices have dropped so much that alot of people seem to be dumping their MF stuff at the moment....
Also I never had the AFD just the ProTL , but I find the AFDII to III was a MINOR update and not worth beans if you ask me. What were they thinking?
They are kind of like Phase becasue the upgrades seem to be hardly anything???
Let's face it, Phase need a facelift whether they like it or not.
Also if they are going to be stubborn and NOT drop their prices, they might go down with the ship in flames.

Well not to get off subject here but I feel PhaseOne/Mamiya are making a BIG marketing mistake at the moment.

Hasslblad's are looking pretty good at the moment if you ask me. Although with a phaseOne back..:+}

Just my opinion.

Snook


 I like fast shutter speeds for more wide open shooting or when I need it. Frankly Hassy looks great and if I did not go Phase i would have went Hassy. I'm a C1 fan though and that also was my big reason for going Phase but I have thought about a H2 solution as well. Nice thing is we have choices and I like the options out there, maybe not the ultimate solutions. I will say I think the P65+ is a bit pricey but looking at the P40+ it really is not so bad price wise but we also have to keep in mind which none of us do is what one thinks is high someone else may think as normal or lower. Perspective is something we tend to forget on other folks thoughts. We also tend not to put value on service and support but bottom line pricing we have to careful there as well. That stuff cost real money and I think many of us forget that part on those warranties and support functions some folks may want. Right now everyones business is down or at least 98 percent of us and totally understand looking at price first but we have to be careful we don't buy into something because of it and it don't work. I have had a couple e-mails from folks telling me this exact thing I bought it because it was a good price but it is not working the way I like
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bcooter
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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2009, 01:59:49 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
but bottom line pricing we have to careful there as well. That stuff cost real money and I think many of us forget that part on those warranties and support functions some folks may want


If this is true, Phase could offer extended warranties straight from their website.  Plug in your serial number, buy the warranty and get back to work.

That keeps the used backs with some support, that keeps the phase buyer somewhat protected and adds a new income stream for Phase.

On the other hand, why pay $16,000 for a new p30+ when you can buy them for around half that used?   It might be a risk, but honestly unless it's a manufacturer defect, a warranty isn't going to cover user error anyway.


B
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2009, 02:19:57 PM »
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Agree be nice to buy them from Phase on there website but I know you can buy extra warranty from a dealer. Actually I asked this same question on my forum , try to find a link from all the OEM's here

Found it http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6876
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