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Author Topic: Apple, ColorSync, and Tiger vs leopard  (Read 4836 times)
jjlphoto
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« on: May 18, 2009, 08:46:36 AM »
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I am on a MacPro running OSX10.4.11. I have been having some issues with the 'No Color Adjustment' side of my Epson drivers and it has been suggested this may be yet another issue with Apple's messing up ColorSync. I have read that OSX10.5.7 has been released and some issues (memory leaks) regarding 'Image Capture' and tethered shooting has been resolved, along with some other fixes.

Any print driver issues with Leopard? I am on CS3. I print with the 3800.


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jjlphoto
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 05:20:06 PM »
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I have the 3800 connected via USB, am on OSX10.4.11, and CS3. I print using the ICC method, select 'Photoshop Manages Colors' and check 'No Color Adjustment' in the usual fashion. Say for example, I print an image that is 4"x5" on letter size paper. The image itself looks fine, but the resulting print also shows a faint tone outside of the bounding box, right up to the maximum printable area. It's faint, like if you ran something at 254, 254, 254.


after tons of trouble shooting, it seems like some sort of OS issue as it affects my Epson RX680 in the same way. Installed drivers are the current ones posted on Epson's site. Photoshop CS3 is also last version posted.

Think of it this way. If you made a small 4" x5" image, and in Page Set-Up selected Letter Size, and positioned it way down on the bottom of the page in the Print Preview window.

On my PPC OSX10.4.11 Macs, all works as it should, the printer makes the paper feed all the way down to the bottom where the image starts, and then the head begins to print only the image.

On my Intel MacPro OSX10.4.11, no matter what I do, the printer always starts printing right at the very top of the page, all the way across, all the way down to where the image starts. It prints a faint tone everywhere the image isn't, as areas within the image that are 255/255/255 stay completely paper base white. The offending tone is perhaps 254/254/254 or 250/250/250 (just a guess). Faint, but none-the-less there.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 07:57:46 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
I am on a MacPro running OSX10.4.11. I have been having some issues with the 'No Color Adjustment' side of my Epson drivers and it has been suggested this may be yet another issue with Apple's messing up ColorSync. I have read that OSX10.5.7 has been released and some issues (memory leaks) regarding 'Image Capture' and tethered shooting has been resolved, along with some other fixes.

Any print driver issues with Leopard? I am on CS3. I print with the 3800.


Interesting, because most of the issues occurred when Leopard was introduced (OS X 10.5).  I use 10.4.11 and CS3 when I am printing targets for profiles (which require no color management)  because it is more reliable than 10.5.6 when doing this - never had any problems.

I assume you've checked out Eric Chan's excellent resource for the 3800?   http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html



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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 01:41:15 AM »
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I am using 10.5.6 but I use Photoshop CS1 for printing profile targets whether it is for my Epson 7900 or QTR B&W targets for my HP Z3200. In both cases the targets came out wrong when I tried 10.5.6 + Photoshop CS4. (I also tested Windows XP with Photoshop CS2 and CS4 and both were ok.) A separate thread has also reported Canon driver probllems when used with Leopard and Photoshop CS4. So I no longer single out Epson for these problems and instead I feel blame should be pointed back at Apple. Hopefully Snow Leopard, CS5 and yet another round of driver updates will put all this right but I expect we will all have to pay to 'upgrade' our bug ridden software. The software industry never seems to change its spots (pun intended).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 01:42:05 AM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 08:12:32 AM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
I assume you've checked out Eric Chan's excellent resource for the 3800?   http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html

I've another thread running in the Printer forum, and even Eric is stumped.
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Chas
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 09:43:06 AM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
So I no longer single out Epson for these problems and instead I feel blame should be pointed back at Apple. Hopefully Snow Leopard, CS5 and yet another round of driver updates will put all this right but I expect we will all have to pay to 'upgrade' our bug ridden software.
I'm just chiming in again to repeat that I am still having exactly the same experience as Ionaca after careful testing, and likewise have reverted to using my old Windows box to print targets.  IIRC the problem doesn't appear with some paper settings, which may explain why some aren't seeing it.  It's frustrating that nobody seems even after several months to have clearly identified the source of the issue.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 10:00:35 AM »
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The issue some are having printing profile targets from CS4 on Leopard is related to the issue some are having printing via the ABW driver to Epson printers. This is a known interaction issue between Leopard's new printing APIs and some driver modes. (For those wondering: this issue doesn't show up with CS3 because CS3 used Apple's older printing interfaces, which will not work going forward, e.g., if you want 64-bit apps ...)

There is a workaround to print your color profile targets from CS4. It is obscure, but it works:

- Your profile target is expected to be untagged RGB.
- Open it in CS4.
- Go to Edit -> Assign Profile. Choose Generic RGB. Ignore the preview of colors.
- To print your target, in PS's Print box, use Printer Manages Colors. Ignore rendering intent.
- Configure driver the way you want. This is the same configuration that must be used to print the actual images. Standard practice is to turn off color management in the driver. (If you are printing gray targets to be used for ABW profiling, you will need to use the ABW driver mode, of course.)

Ok, so the previous steps basically run counter to all conventional wisdom known to man when it comes to printing profile targets. However, till the glitches are resolved that's the way to do it. (The technically savvy can read between the lines of the workaround steps and may be able to figure out what the underlying color issues are.)
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 10:29:55 AM »
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I am running OSX 10.5.7 and CS4, and print to a 3800 with ZERO issues.  I also have had zero issues generating untagged profiles, but I do NOT (ever) use Epson's ABW driver  --- I see no need for it*.  I print directly from CS4 for singles, but also print with Q-Image running inside Fusion/XP with zero issues.  Of course if you decide on the latter route, all your appropriate profiles need to be loaded into XP too.


*With all due respect to Eric -- and I understand his and other's thinking on ABW -- the fact is my RGB profiles produce excellent, perfectly neutral B&W images, plus I have the benefit of true WYSIWYG output, which is especially beneficial when toning the B&W's...

Cheers,
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 10:30:19 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2009, 01:01:59 PM »
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In the case of Epson, the problems with printing targets without colour management will not be obvious when profiling RC papers. However, the problems will be very obvious if printing targets on matte papers. Wayne and I explored this extensively a few months ago on this forum.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=31410
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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madmanchan
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2009, 02:19:28 PM »
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Hi Jack, just to be clear, the issues I mentioned previously were only when printing from CS4 with the No Color Management option. Printing with Photoshop Manages Color, e.g., when using a standard RGB color profile, is no problem.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 02:48:48 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
I am running OSX 10.5.7 and CS4, and print to a 3800 with ZERO issues.  I also have had zero issues generating untagged profiles, but I do NOT (ever) use Epson's ABW driver  --- I see no need for it*.  I print directly from CS4 for singles, but also print with Q-Image running inside Fusion/XP with zero issues.  Of course if you decide on the latter route, all your appropriate profiles need to be loaded into XP too.


*With all due respect to Eric -- and I understand his and other's thinking on ABW -- the fact is my RGB profiles produce excellent, perfectly neutral B&W images, plus I have the benefit of true WYSIWYG output, which is especially beneficial when toning the B&W's...

Cheers,

With all due respect, this is not a "sometimes" bug.  This is a known bug, is absolutely repeatable and verifiable.

As Ryan mentioned as long as the paper type you are using is Epson Premium Luster your targets are probably fine.  However, if you are trying to profile any paper using MK what you think you are getting looks somewhat OK ... but is inaccurate.  This has been tested extensively and is a known issue.  You can easily verify it by printing from CS3 and find your targets will not match.  If you read the thread, you will see I was very skeptical and made almost exactly the same claim you have.

Since there is no way to verify if a target is accurate or not (you certainly can't just look at it),  if targets are inaccurate even some of the time with a setup, then I can't trust any of them.  Personally I print all targets with CS3/10.4.11 now.  With CS4/10.5.x, resetting the Default Color Sync profile to the paper type you are using in the printer driver seems to work around the problem. I haven't tried Eric's work around but knowing his background,  this would be the correct way to print any targets from CS4/10.5.x until the problem is resolved, which appears to be no sooner than snow leopard (and hopefully then).  

If you do not use the work around, there is no way to insure your targets are accurate ... they will look pretty good and in fact MAY be OK.  The resulting profiles may be perfect, and they may be less than perfect yet still perform "OK".  If you are printing using MK ink, they are most likely inaccurate.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 02:49:41 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

vjbelle
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 04:00:42 PM »
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It looks like I will have my work cut out for me.  I am taking delivery of a 9900 next week and am actually not looking forward to it.  I have a Canon 8000 which I have had '0' issues with.  I am also using CS4 and 10.5.7 and profile with PM5 with absolutely no issues.  It isn't as though there haven't been hiccups in the past.  I have had to delay PS upgrades due to driver delays.... the same with 10.x.x with Canon taking months to catch up but there was always a viable work around.  I am encouraged that some users don't experience any Epson difficulties..... time will tell if I do.

Victor
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na goodman
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 10:45:03 PM »
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I concur with Eric - after going round and round on this subject. I use CS4 with an Epson 3800 and 9800 running Leopard on a Mac Pro. I cannot print targets out of CS4 and ended up keeping CS3 on my machine just to print targets. This issue has been going on for so long that it doesn't seem like it will be resolved anytime soon.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 12:40:19 AM »
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To clarify my response to Eric was specifically re using my RGB profiles over the ABW driver for printing B&W.

As re printing untagged RGB files from CS4, I admit I need to check my notes on that that ---  it's been a while since I've needed any new paper profiles and it could well be I printed the last ones from CS3 or via Q-Image.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 12:41:19 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

jjlphoto
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 12:45:39 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
.....*With all due respect to Eric -- and I understand his and other's thinking on ABW -- the fact is my RGB profiles produce excellent, perfectly neutral B&W images, plus I have the benefit of true WYSIWYG output, which is especially beneficial when toning the B&W's...

Jack-

I was making my B&W prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber with my own custom made ICC profiles. Dead-on nuetral. Great looking prints.

Then I read Eric Chan's tutorial. I believe he states the d-max is greater using the ABW side of the driver rather than the NoColorAdjust side. I do not have the software to measure d-max, but compared side by side, the prints using his method (ABW with his ICC profiles) produces prints that have noticeably more depth. And not just because they have more d-max. I use the term depth subjectively. Almost a 3D look. IMO, it's more than just a case of a BW inkjet print just being neutral.

Give his method a try. You won't be disappointed. And it is still a true WYSIWYG workflow.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 12:47:20 PM by jjlphoto » Logged

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