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Author Topic: Hasselblad Bankruptcy?  (Read 23187 times)
j.miller
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2009, 10:29:57 PM »
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Please don't misunderstand, as this policy only pertains to advertised prices, and has very little bearing on actual prices paid by end-users. There is nothing significant about "violating" these policies, and rarely presents much of an issue. However, there is some benefit to abiding by these policies if they exist. Federal and State legislation does not necessarily prohibit this type practice, but can encroach on exactly how much control a manufacturer/ vendor has in how "their" products are priced.

Quote from: MarkKay
How does this specifically work?...
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j.miller
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 10:40:46 PM »
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B&H also happens to be a dealer that follows, in a very strict sense, MAP and MSRP policies provided by various manufacturers (Canon and Hasselblad included). I agree, things should be simple. Dealer and Manufacturer agreements and dealerships have little affect on what photographers actually pay for these types of systems.

If you want simply the best price you can find, on a medium format digital system, you will find a slightly different approach from every manufacturer (PhaseOne, Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, etc) in how their products are represented and sold. These systems require a greater level of technical expertise (both user and dealer) than a Canon/Nikon, a significant investment in equipment and resources, and a numerous other system-specific capabilities that have never been required in the 35mm market. I trust this is something you might have recognized already.

If you want a price, just ask. You will get a prompt reply from any medium format digital dealer with a price well below MAP/MSRP.

Do you pay sticker prices for a car?

Regards,

Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.

Quote from: gwhitf
"... straight forward..."?

My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".

That's straight forward.

All of those straight forward sentences that you wrote above translate into "we'll get every dime out of you that we can squeeze".
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j.miller
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 10:51:29 PM »
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I agree, transparency is ideal for everyone. And the transparency is there. When you shop for a medium format camera, do you only look for the lowest price you can find? More than likely no. These policies, which have no bearing over what photographers pay for equipment, should not be of any concern to photographers / end-users. All this does is ensure that when you Google search for a Hasselblad / PhaseOne / Leaf / Sinar system, you will see some continuity in the prices ADVERTISED. What you pay, when talking to a dealer is something completely different.

Transparency good. Commoditization of these system, much like we have seen with 35mm, not good.

There is no hocus pocus.

I hope I don't fall into your stereotype, as my wife will soon be disappointed!

Manufacturers need dealers. Where would Hasselblad , PhaseOne, Leaf & Sinar be without the experience and capability of their dealers. As you might know, they would have fewer employees, as most manufacturers representatives came from the dealer / sales side.

Regards,

Jordan Miller


Quote from: gwhitf
Nick and Jordan:

With all due respect, all those hocus pocus terms seems so out of date. It just reminds me of a bunch of overweight white guys, sitting around a conference table in their Sansabelt elastic-waist pants, with their calculators and their Excel spreadsheets, using business practices that died long ago. The internet has changed everything now -- both with easy to view retailers websites, and also with forums like this, that allow free transfer of real world information. In short, these backroom plots and shenanigans about pricing and such are just plain dead, but I don't think many of these companies realize that.

Transparency is the new buzzword. And "keeping it simple".

I've never understood this whole dealer (markup) network. Seems easy enough for Phase, or anyone, to have some big warehouse in Chicago or Dallas, in the middle of the country, and they eliminate all the dealers, and they make damn sure that the camera works right, right out of the box, and their own website has good instructional videos.

But hey, what do I know? But what I do know is that when I read Jordan's sentences in that prior post, my eyes roll back in my head, and all I see is "run the other way".
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:46:24 AM by j.miller » Logged
j.miller
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 10:54:35 PM »
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It also has to do with specific legislation passed in the State of Washington, where Hasselblad USA is headquartered.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote from: Nick_T
I think the MAP policy used to operate on a state by state basis, ie obviously only where it was legal. I would guess such inconsistencies were part of the reason it (the MAP policy) has been discontinued.

Nick-T
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:46:32 AM by j.miller » Logged
gwhitf
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 10:59:35 PM »
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Quote from: JEM_DTG
Do you pay sticker prices for a car?

I paid sticker (gladly) for my two 1ds3's. Because it was upfront and easy.

And let's be honest, in these days of Chrysler and GM, do you really want to use that business segment as an analogy for Medium Format Dealers?

Don't get me wrong, this is business, not personal. And it's constructive criticism. I just think the world is changing really, really fast, and these old business models and practices might need review. I am the biggest fan of MFDB's; I want them to continue and survive. But sometimes, you've got to stand up and say, "Isn't there any easier way to do this, that's more transparent and seemingly trustworthy?
"

The very last feeling I want, when I consider buying a MF back, is a similar feeling than when I'm about to buy a new car. The last thing.

If I was a MF manufacturer, (or their ad agency), I would not even call MFDBs a piece of photographic equipment. I would say it was medical equipment. I'd completely disassociate it with normal photography. I'd invent some fake scientist guy, who just happened to stick one of these "medical imagers" onto the back of a 645 camera by mistake, "and I'll be damned, it made a pretty nice picture". But if you keep it filed under Medical instead of Photographic, then your whole Smoke And Mirrors approach might continue to work. We all know that medical equipment needs training, and supervision, and multiple phone calls, and service contracts, and VA warranties; everybody expects that. No one would ever question it. But as soon as you call a p65 or whatever the hassie equivalent is, a CAMERA, then of course, you invite comparisons to the 5d2 and all the LCD controversy, and "why does it cost this much, when a 5D2 is four grand?". Then, you can say, (with your white lab coat on), "It costs that much because it's a medical device; it's not a camera, it's an Imager".

Dead serious.

Otherwise, it's just too damn easy to go to B&H, buy a 5d2, and start making money tomorrow. No training, no service contract, no nothing. Just make money.
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j.miller
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 11:01:43 PM »
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I will apologize if my early posts came off a bit heated, as I was initially dumbfounded by the title and first couple of threads. I was hoping to clarify some information, and offer some insight into what might be happening. Relating the very near discontinuation of Hasselblad's MAP policy with possible bankruptcy is ludicrous, and I was only looking to provide some additional info, along with David Grover and Nick-T. It now clear of everyone else's intention with this thread, and I hope I have been able to clarify my own. 

Regards,

Jordan Miller
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:46:55 AM by j.miller » Logged
j.miller
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 11:11:52 PM »
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You paid "sticker price" for your Canon's because B&H (or some other dealer) was honoring Canon's MAP policy. My comparison was not to the automobile industry, but to the approach taken in making an investment beyond that of a $5-10K Canon. When talking to, and developing a relationship with our customers, the last thing we want to present is an concept of hiding something or misleading with information. We do however want to make sure we are providing the right product, at the most competitive price, with the necessary level of support.

You can thank the manufactures for your feelings of medical equipment. Dealers, myself included, have spent decades overcoming issues, shortfalls, inconsistencies, while helping to further the development and innovation in these system, and it is this investment in time, energy, equipment, staff, and resources that is valuable to photographers. I believe everyone recognizes this value, and it is in everyone's best interest (professional and financially) that this value not be be lost.

A Hasselblad H3DII-50 or PhaseOne P65+ is not a Canon EOS 5D Mark II. Never will be.

I would hope by my presence on this board, and these post at midnight, that this all but "smoke and mirrors".

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote from: gwhitf
I paid sticker (gladly) for my two 1ds3's. Because it was upfront and easy.

And let's be honest, in these days of Chrysler and GM, do you really want to use that business segment as an analogy for Medium Format Dealers?

Don't get me wrong, this is business, not personal. And it's constructive criticism. I just think the world is changing really, really fast, and these old business models and practices might need review. I am the biggest fan of MFDB's; I want them to continue and survive. But sometimes, you've got to stand up and say, "Isn't there any easier way to do this, that's more transparent and seemingly trustworthy?
"

The very last feeling I want, when I consider buying a MF back, is a similar feeling than when I'm about to buy a new car. The last thing.

If I was a MF manufacturer, (or their ad agency), I would not even call MFDBs a piece of photographic equipment. I would say it was medical equipment. I'd completely disassociate it with normal photography. I'd invent some fake scientist guy, who just happened to stick one of these "medical imagers" onto the back of a 645 camera by mistake, "and I'll be damned, it made a pretty nice picture". But if you keep it filed under Medical instead of Photographic, then your whole Smoke And Mirrors approach might continue to work. We all know that medical equipment needs training, and supervision, and multiple phone calls, and service contracts, and VA warranties; everybody expects that. No one would ever question it. But as soon as you call a p65 or whatever the hassie equivalent is, a CAMERA, then of course, you invite comparisons to the 5d2 and all the LCD controversy, and "why does it cost this much, when a 5D2 is four grand?". Then, you can say, (with your white lab coat on), "It costs that much because it's a medical device; it's not a camera, it's an Imager".

Dead serious.

Otherwise, it's just too damn easy to go to B&H, buy a 5d2, and start making money tomorrow. No training, no service contract, no nothing. Just make money.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:47:07 AM by j.miller » Logged
AndreNapier
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 11:28:59 PM »
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Quote from: JEM_DTG
I agree, transparency is ideal for everyone. And the transparency is there. When you shop for a medium format camera, do you only look for the lowest price you can find? More than likely no. These policies, which have no bearing over what photographers pay for equipment, should not be of any concern to photographers / end-users. All this does is ensure that when you Google search for a Hasselblad / PhaseOne / Leaf / Sinar system, you will see some continuity in the prices ADVERTISED. What you pay, when talking to a dealer is something completely different.

Transparency good. Commoditization of these system, much like we have seen with 35mm, not good.

There is no hocus pocus.

I hope I don't fall into your stereotype, as my wife will soon be disappointed!

Manufacturers need dealers. Where would Hasselblad , PhaseOne, Leaf & Sinar be without the experience and capability of their dealers. As you might know, they would fewer employees, as most manufacturers representatives came from the dealer / sales side.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
I think I am getting tired of this whole MF BS. AND Yes I want to look for the lowest price and I do not give shit about dealer support. Most people who buy MFD are Pros who have been shooting with DB for years. I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade.. This whole pricing scheme is ridiculous. This whole dealer support is ridiculous as well. Employees of Leaf authorized dealer think that WLF on AFI has an adjustable diopter. Leaf support informs you must have Leopard on your Mac to run AFI so you buy another MacBook Pro just to figure out that it runs perfect on your old computer as well. When you order a diopter just to be able to focus your camera it takes months to get it. Support?Huh
MFD dealer support and pricing is like an used car dealer support. You get screwed at the beginning but you get a promise of a free oil change that you never going to use.
I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre
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ynp
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 02:01:19 AM »
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It is funny, Jordan! So many posts in a short time!
Do you remember the Leaf adapter I paid for almost a year ago? And I paid by direct wire transfer
You can find time to defend Hasselblad but you cannot find time to reply my eMails an PMs on the forum. I have no communication with you for more than two months.
I am think that you and your dealership will be insolvent sooner than a good company from Sweden.
Yevgeny .
Quote from: JEM_DTG
You paid "sticker price" for your Canon's because B&H (or some other dealer) was honoring Canon's MAP policy. My comparison was not to the automobile industry, but to the approach taken in making an investment beyond that of a $5-10K Canon. When talking to, and developing a relationship with our customers, the last thing we want to present is an concept of hiding something or misleading with information. We do however want to make sure we are providing the right product, at the most competitive price, with the necessary level of support.

You can thank the manufactures for your feelings of medical equipment. Dealers, myself included, have spent decades overcoming issues, shortfalls, inconsistencies, while helping to further the development and innovation in these system, and it is this investment in time, energy, equipment, staff, and resources that is valuable to photographers. I believe everyone recognizes this value, and it is in everyone's best interest (professional and financially) that this value not be be lost.

A Hasselblad H3DII-50 or PhaseOne P65+ is not a Canon EOS 5D Mark II. Never will be.

I would hope by my presence on this board, and these post at midnight, that this all but "smoke and mirrors".

Regards,

Jordan Miller
Digital Technology Group, Inc.
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csp
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2009, 02:32:25 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
I think I am getting tired of this whole MF BS. AND Yes I want to look for the lowest price and I do not give shit about dealer support. Most people who buy MFD are Pros who have been shooting with DB for years. I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade.. This whole pricing scheme is ridiculous. This whole dealer support is ridiculous as well. Employees of Leaf authorized dealer think that WLF on AFI has an adjustable diopter. Leaf support informs you must have Leopard on your Mac to run AFI so you buy another MacBook Pro just to figure out that it runs perfect on your old computer as well. When you order a diopter just to be able to focus your camera it takes months to get it. Support?Huh
MFD dealer support and pricing is like an used car dealer support. You get screwed at the beginning but you get a promise of a free oil change that you never going to use.
I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre


so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost.  10% real information and 90% biased opinion.

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jonstewart
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2009, 03:00:46 AM »
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Quote from: laughingbear
Ireland is more likely bancrupt than Hasselblad.  

I'm not sure what you meant with this comment, but Ireland is hugely bankrupt, and in fact they don't even know how badly they are in the red. Cut's to services everywhere, increased taxes etc. Huge crash in the economy, and withdrawing of investment from foreign businesses.

Things are bad because the 'booming' economy was built on a very narrow and fragile foundation.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 03:07:36 AM by jonstewart » Logged

Jon Stewart

If only life were so simple...
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2009, 03:50:46 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
"... straight forward..."?

My view of straight forward is going to www.bhphoto.com, and a 1ds3 says $6999.95, (to everyone, equally), and I say, "OK, here's my AMEX number".

That's straight forward.

George,

Just updated....

http://www.hasselblad.com/products/lenses-...ccessories.aspx

Go to one of the links and you will see RRP pricing on all lenses and accessories.

.....Aaaand before anyone jumps, we are not getting rid of our dealers.  It is a step to 'straight forwardness' if you like, George.

As for the rest of the thread, thanks to Jordan for clarifying the 'MAP' situation and the only resting comment is that we are not going backrupt.  

David


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David Grover
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carstenw
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 06:02:43 AM »
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Maybe the mods can change the title of this thread to 'Hasselblad eliminating MAP practice?' The thread itself is interesting, but the title is horrible.
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archivue
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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2009, 06:05:23 AM »
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Quote from: csp
so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost.  10% real information and 90% biased opinion.

so true in paris too...
 
examples :
"every digital back are good for shift and tilt..."
"a phase one on an arca ? no problem, works exactly as the leaf..."
"yes profoto air is the same as R"
"Hasselblad H wide angles are far better than rodenstock digital"
...

but they are pro dealers and need money to buy a new car... i have the feeling that in US you have more noledgeables dealers !
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 06:06:10 AM by archivue » Logged
SeanBK
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2009, 07:55:54 AM »
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This min/MSRP pricing across US of A does exist & thriving quite well. 1 1/2 yrs back I purchased "Tempur-pedic" mattress @ $3000 MSRP I thought I could shop around & save a buck. Only thing I could save was shipping & sales tax cost. Tempur-pedic has a strict policy of maintaining their price, which Hasselblad could easily follow.
    An early poster mentioned @ MF manuf could create a big box type warehouse in middle of nowhere. So in lieu of us trying to reach dealer on late Sat, one can reach 24/7 a 800 support #. Why have inventory everywhere. Have Credit card on file & they will ship the demo camera on trial basis/demo... I believe that is where Hassey is heading. I agree with Andre N's POV, along with gwhitf's point. I do feel symapthetic & appreciative of Jordan Miller's efforts but I do see writing on the wall. Last month another dealer selling Phase One & Hasselblads in Detroit area closed their doors    Terrific successful peeps but sign of times., I am not saying it is right to let go of loyal knowledgeble dealers but so were the thousands of loyal auto support staff.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2009, 08:21:07 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
I certainly hope that more and more people will buy cars through internet and force The Family Business out, but than again you do not get to kick the tire.
Andre

Why could you not kick the tire? If the company/warehouse/service was located in a central major city, ie Chicago, StLouis,Dallas, etc, just hop on a flight, drive to some anonymous business park somewhere, walk in, (past the service window), and down the hall to the Demo Studio, where all the backs would be set up and working.

Have one price for the back, (box pusher price), and if you wanted to sign up for Additional Software Training, you could.

If Nike can have NikeTown on Michigan Avenue, why couldn't there be a HassieTown, or a PhaseCity, or a LeafVillage, or a SinarMedicalComplexWithLabCoatsAndFrowningScientists? Hell, bring the kids, and make a vacation out of it!

Aren't you amazed on some level, that Canon/Nikon hasn't already done this, on Fifth Avenue...?
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j.miller
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2009, 08:24:15 AM »
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Yevgeny,
       I was not aware this issue was still pending. We will certainly have resolution here, as you and your DC office will be contacted shortly. Thank you for you concern, however insolvency is certainly not a relevant matter for us. Shall we move this off-forum?

Regards,

Jordan Miller
.
Quote from: ynp
It is funny, Jordan! So many posts in a short time!...
...I am think that you and your dealership will be ...
Yevgeny .
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:45:16 AM by j.miller » Logged
paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2009, 08:27:56 AM »
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I have put out there before and I am sure many of the pros will agree with me.. change the language..digital backs are no longer accurately described as medium format.. that implies the existence of larger format..and film formats in general as we use to know them..and in my world that is ancient history.
It's been 10 years now that professionals have been moving into digital.. start by changing the name of this forum.."Digital backs and large Sensor Photography"  this would include any sensor with a dimension of at least 36mm.  maybe they are out there, and I am sure I will read about them, but most professionals shoot in this area.. sure I have a smaller than 35 digital that I use professionally but most of my work is with a digital back and larger sensor..
Leica is changing the language, introducing their "leica format"  as it is not an old film format but a new digital creation.  
I think as photographers we realize that everything has changed from 1995..where a sinar meant one clear thing and a nikon meant an entirely different clear thing.. now you can have a digital back on a sinar that is lower resolution than a nikon..
I for one think the small format vs medium format debate is a big circular test track.. with no checkered flag.. and not really interesting watching
the 'goround.  



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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2009, 08:44:08 AM »
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Quote from: csp
so true, my own experience with mfb dealers are also disappointing. if you don't know what you want from the very first beginning you are lost.  10% real information and 90% biased opinion.


Quote from: archivue
so true in paris too...
 
examples :
"every digital back are good for shift and tilt..."
"a phase one on an arca ? no problem, works exactly as the leaf..."
"yes profoto air is the same as R"
"Hasselblad H wide angles are far better than rodenstock digital"

Sounds like you have some experience with one or more specific poor quality dealers. I hope you'll reconsider allowing this to taint your opinion of dealers in general.


Quote from: AndreNapier
I want to know what a dealer who took some classes with manufactures can teach me about my new Leaf or P1 after me using them every day for a decade..

I do. I am not bragging, and I am not claiming exclusivity. In fact I'm quite confident that if you took my job you would understand. It is a product of how a good dealer does business. My entire job is technical knowledge and support. A good dealer's technical services agent is uniquely situated as they have personal and direct relationships with their customers as well as personal and direct relationships with the engineers and internal technical team of the manufacturers.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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csp
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2009, 08:45:00 AM »
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it  would be much better for us when hasselblad and others  would  bypass their dealers and sell to professionals direct.  with almost all questions i had in the past which are not solvable with pure intelligence they had to get in contact with the manufacturer.  this is what i can do by myself easier and faster  without dealing with somebody who does not even want to understand the problem.  i would  prefer a strong direct connection and  a web-store where we can place our orders without paying a handling fee for nothing and only have to wait longer till the goods arrive.  they should better invest parts of the savings in a real professional service network.


gwhitf love the idea, a hasselblad world would really be cool !
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 08:55:10 AM by csp » Logged
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