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Author Topic: 7900/9900 and optimal use of Orange and Green  (Read 6206 times)
scott morrish
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« on: May 25, 2009, 06:45:12 AM »
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Hi,

I have installed a 9900, and am looking for a rip that will allow full user-control over each ink-channel (Ink limiting, blending of lighter and darker inks, linearisation etc). My objective is to be able to send CMYKOG separations that make optimal use of the two new colours, (no reference to ICC profiles).

I am wondering if anyone else has managed to do this, and if so, with which rip?

Thanks for any help,
Regards,
Scott
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fjmcsu
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009, 10:00:57 AM »
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Scott,
I have been using Ergosoft's PosterPrint6/StudioPrint. with my Epson 7600(color) & 7500(Piezo); I have just ordered a 7900 to replace the aging but venerable 7600. I have used the RIP for about 7 years & also use their propriety profiling software GPS with an X-rite scanning table which it supports,. Both software allow for much tweaking &  can control individual inks(at least on my 7600, and I know the 7900 is on the list in my software for configuration too).I will let you know once I receive my machine how it works!
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scott morrish
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »
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Quote from: fjmcsu
I will let you know once I receive my machine how it works!

Look forward to hearing how the combination works.
If, in the meantime, anyone knows of a simple way of controlling each of the six channels, i would still be very interested.

Regards,
Scott
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2009, 02:48:07 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
If, in the meantime, anyone knows of a simple way of controlling each of the six channels, i would still be very interested.

Regards,
Scott

It will never be simple.
Your best bet is then GutenPrint or the Quadtone Rip.
Both have no drivers beyond the 9880 model but sometimes substitution of drivers may get you further.
10/11 channels for QTR as you have to make the partitioning yourself.
QTR has a 3800 driver which indicates that it can switch the black channels. QTR is a B&W RIP so has no color engine for color printing.
Gutenprint doesn't have a 3800 driver yet as far as I know but has the color engine.
QTR is based on GimpPrint/GutenPrint.

Remember that the x900 models are a combination of the R1800 and 3800 inksets but in a wide format model.
It will not be simple.

For the HP Z3100 and Z3200 just two RIPS equal/surpass the HP drivers: EFI and GMG. I think you should check them for the x900 Epson models too.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html



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Farmer
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2009, 04:03:32 PM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Remember that the x900 models are a combination of the R1800 and 3800 inksets but in a wide format model.
It will not be simple.

No, the x900 models are the x880 inkset plus Orange and Green.  They do not use the Ultrachrome Hi-Gloss of the R1800 and the 3800 uses the older Magenta and Light Magenta rather than the updated Vivid versions.  The R1800 had Red and Blue which do not feature in the Ultrachrome HDR inkset.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2009, 02:01:32 AM »
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Quote from: Farmer
No, the x900 models are the x880 inkset plus Orange and Green.  They do not use the Ultrachrome Hi-Gloss of the R1800 and the 3800 uses the older Magenta and Light Magenta rather than the updated Vivid versions.  The R1800 had Red and Blue which do not feature in the Ultrachrome HDR inkset.


Alright, not 1:1, I was thinking of the broad picture: the MK,PK,+switch, the two grey inks, CcMmY, two extra hues to fit in. And after that I wrote: It will not be simple. It was about alternative drivers that can cope with a x900 model.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Farmer
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2009, 03:10:47 AM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Alright, not 1:1, I was thinking of the broad picture: the MK,PK,+switch, the two grey inks, CcMmY, two extra hues to fit in. And after that I wrote: It will not be simple. It was about alternative drivers that can cope with a x900 model.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Fair comment, Ernst.

Regarding RIPs, the Onyx RIP deals with the O and G quite well, but may not be entirely suitable for the OPs purpose - could be worth having a look at, though, it was developed with close work with Epson in regard to the version used on the x900 printers.
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Doombrain
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 11:23:02 AM »
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I think Colourgate will allow this through spot colour, if Im understanding you, youd like to use any one channel at 100% direct on to the substrate?

In the spot control there's x10 (7900 & 9900) channel control 0% to 100% which will override any spot colour sent to the RIP with whatever you set as long as it's defined as a spot.
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scott morrish
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 02:58:54 PM »
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Quote from: Doombrain
if Im understanding you, youd like to use any one channel at 100% direct on to the substrate?

... not exactly, and i certainly do not imagine ever wanting or needing to use 100% of any colour.

What i want to do is... effectively treat the 9900 as a simple 6 colour device (CMYKOG). (Much like a litho press i guess... but vastly more stable).

Firstly I want to be able to set ink limits for each of the six channels for what i judge to be the optimal balance of Hue, saturation and Brightness.
My reason for wanting to do this is that, from what i have seen with other epson printers, the ink limits are often set lower than i would choose to use them (which i assume is probably because profile makers have to cater for drying times across a multitude of atmospheric environments?). Whenever ink limits are lower than they could be... they restrict saturation around each of the colour channels.

Secondly i want to linearise those six channels.
Thirdly, the fun bit, i want to make and send six colour separations through the printer.
I am not 100% sure that it will definitely be better than the results achieved via epsons profiles... but i'd hope so.

Admittedly this relies on someone making 6 colour separations that take into account grey balance, and maximum ink weights where there are a combination of inks... but it can yield very good results, and is common practice in repro-houses that engage in HiFi work (hexachrome etc).

To date i have only ever been able to do this myself with CMYK via 4800 / 9800, and one of the attractions of the 9900 was the O&G... but for some reason colourburst are not providing the same level of user control to the 9900, as they did / do for the other epson printers. (No idea why... but it is a shame as the rip is very good for contract proofing etc).

I still have and use colourburst for contract proofing. The silly thing is i feel that my objective is so simple that it shouldn't really need yet another expensive rip. It is probably how all drivers worked in the beginning... but as technology and colour management got clever... some simple things were lost along the way.

I know this is not a way many would want to work, and it is only any good for someone working in a closed-colour-loop, which for my prints, i am.

Having set out to clarify my purpose... I am not sure if i have done that or not?
Hope so!
Scott




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seangirard
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 03:14:11 PM »
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Have you tried building and separating to a 6-color profile while keeping the rest of your workflow the same?
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scott morrish
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2009, 03:35:09 PM »
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Quote from: seangirard
Have you tried building and separating to a 6-color profile while keeping the rest of your workflow the same?

Do you mean sending a 6 colour separation through an RGB or CMYK printing environment?
can you expand on this please?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 04:04:21 PM by scott morrish » Logged
seangirard
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2009, 04:01:26 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
can you explain what you mean?

Only that n-color profiles might be another avenue for controlling tac. And depending on what profiling package you have it might be an option available to you without spending additional $$$. I'm not real up on touch plates and hi-fi and what not. I know some of the vendors in commercial printing/packaging have tools for working with multicolor seps but all that stuff gets pricey in a hurry. This might be worth a look: http://www2.chromix.com/colorthink/pro/pro_colorcast

-sean
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stretchdcanvas
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 04:17:17 PM »
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I use Wasatch to individually limit each of the 6 colors.  
Then I linearize, print a set of Hex patches and make a 6 color profile in PM.
(if only it was that easy:)
Works fine though.
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scott morrish
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 04:27:04 PM »
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Quote from: stretchdcanvas
I use Wasatch to individually limit each of the 6 colors.  
Then I linearize, print a set of Hex patches and make a 6 color profile in PM.
(if only it was that easy:)
Works fine though.

are you using a 7 / 9900?
are the results better than an epson profile?
and which version of the rip are you using? ... it is not one i'd heard of?

Out of curiosity, do you have to use a profile? (I was hoping to bypass colour management altogether, and simply send a 6 channel file to 6 channels).

Scott
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stretchdcanvas
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2009, 05:44:00 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
are you using a 7 / 9900?
are the results better than an epson profile?
and which version of the rip are you using? ... it is not one i'd heard of?

Out of curiosity, do you have to use a profile? (I was hoping to bypass colour management altogether, and simply send a 6 channel file to 6 channels).

Scott




are you using a 7 / 9900?

No.

are the results better than an epson profile?

Yes because Epson doesn't make profiles for the ink/media combinations I use.  
I'll bet Epson's are as good as it gets though.

and which version of the rip are you using? ... it is not one i'd heard of?  
6.2

Out of curiosity, do you have to use a profile?  
I need a profile of my set-up for the rip.  It is, after all, my Output profile.
If I was given one I'd use it.

(I was hoping to bypass colour management altogether, and simply send a 6 channel file to 6 channels).
How are you planning to create the seps?
Are the Epson profiles 4C or 6C?






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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2009, 08:23:21 PM »
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Scott,

First off the above suggested RIP are worth checking out, I also just spent a few days training with Cladera and it might be worth looking into their Visual RIP series as well.

Quote
Firstly I want to be able to set ink limits for each of the six channels for what i judge to be the optimal balance of Hue, saturation and Brightness.
So this is pretty simple when it comes to CMYK, and yes the user can often make better choices than the OEM especially since you can tune the ink limits to suit YOUR specific needs. In some cases Epson defaults can be to restrictive and other times they can be to heavy. What is often hidden from you by some RIP's is the transition between light and dark inks, but this is another variable that has to be considered. Where it gets really complicated is when you now throw two additional colors into the mix that are not primary colors. You have to now decide how to make a certain shade of red. What percentage of orange, magenta, light magenta or yellow do you use, all while considering your max ink coverage. Depending on the RIP software they can make this process easy or very very difficult. You may also find that some RIP's use the Epson screening and ink limiting and build linearization on top of this(EFI). Other may allow you to handle the per channel ink limits for all of the CMYKOG channels (caldera) and but use standard as standard CMYK ICC profile. Others use non ICC proprietary methods (GMG). Honestly all options have their plusses and minuses. Also some RIP's will allow multi channel images that can still be printed using CMYK profiles(EFI).

If what your really after is accuracy in your proofs you may find that there are quite a lot of options that will suit your needs. If you really want control over how the RIP's are managing ink then your choices do get narrowed a bit, just be prepared for a bit of a steeper learning curve. What other criteria are you looking for in a RIP? If your coming from Colorburst and generating contract proofs there is no reason you can't stay with that, although you will want to upgrade.

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Julian Mussi

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Doombrain
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 04:49:33 AM »
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Scott, i can't be 100% but i'm sure the Colourgate RIP will do this. If you're in the UK try calling Colourgen, they sell the RIP.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 04:50:20 AM by Doombrain » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 08:18:27 AM »
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Quote from: stretchdcanvas
I use Wasatch to individually limit each of the 6 colors.  
Then I linearize, print a set of Hex patches and make a 6 color profile in PM.
(if only it was that easy:)
Works fine though.

I have the Wasatch SoftRip 6.2 version. I am not impressed by its driver for the HP Z3100 printer, normal Nchannel mode. The HP PCL driver does that a lot better. Main reason is that the SoftRip hardly replaces composite greys with the available grey inks which would make better neutrality and lower ink lay down possible.  The RGV ink substitution for CMY mixes seems primitive too. When asked to at least deliver better default media presets Wasatch tried but couldn't improve that aspect. I actually wonder whether they can address the quad or triple grey inks and instead use just two along with less black generation than the HP driver does. There's no access to that monochrome ink partitioning, black box like in a normal driver.

Reducing full colour to CMYK or CcMmYK is not difficult in the SoftRip. Adding the R and G as spotcolors and linking them to specific color descriptions for housestyle purposes has been available in the SoftRip for a long time so will work here too.

Whether it will deliver better Ncolor media presets/profiling on OEM and third party media than Epson's media presets for the 7900-9900 remains a question. For the Z3100 I didn't see that, have to test it for the Z3200 but am sceptic about it.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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stretchdcanvas
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 09:46:29 AM »
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Scott,
The thing to remember is that rips and drivers are both designed to put ink on paper that matches what you see on your screen.
Rips are designed more for the print for pay shops who's needs  are different than photographers.
I have very little experience with drivers but I would think that companies like Epson, HP and Canon put a lot more R&D into their product development than the rip manufacturers.  With that in mind I would first attempt to master the tools they have provided.  As Ernst suggested the driver may be as good as it gets.  

Invest time in becoming a master of the tools you have been given and you'll surprise yourself in short order.    



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fjmcsu
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2009, 12:02:54 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
Hi,

I have installed a 9900, and am looking for a rip that will allow full user-control over each ink-channel (Ink limiting, blending of lighter and darker inks, linearisation etc). My objective is to be able to send CMYKOG separations that make optimal use of the two new colours, (no reference to ICC profiles).

I am wondering if anyone else has managed to do this, and if so, with which rip?

Thanks for any help,
Regards,
Scott
I have finally been able to run my 7900 without significant clogging & began my process of profiling my favored papers. I have only one canned epson profile on hand(Exhibition Fiber) but all I can say is the output with my custom profiles is just outstanding & appears excellent on either matte or photo papers.I mentioned that I use ErgoSoft's PosterPrint & GPS for profiling. I upgraded to the Publish form of the GPS software which supports CMYKOG profiling & I am just amazed at the quality of the profiles & prints. I can linearize & set ink limits on all channels as well as adjust half-toning parameters etc. The people at Ergo America are very supportive & are well versed in the 7900/9900 machine. At least from what I do it is an ideal solution. You might check the sight out >I know one can download a demo.It works only on Windows.

As an aside , I now have the problem  of not being able to soft proof in Photoshop(Mac) with hexachrome profiles. Anyone have any ideas I might use for this. I know that one can soft and hard-proof hexachrome and other abstract  profiles inside Adobe Photoshop without plugins using Colorcast module inside ColorThinkPro software but that is another ~500$.Any ideas appreciated!
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