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Author Topic: Comparisons between Mamiya and Hasselblad lenses  (Read 15983 times)
CBarrett
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2009, 11:40:15 AM »
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Well, alrighty then.  Here's all the lenses we had on hand.  Sharpening is turned off, which may reveal poor focusing on my part.  This was at the end of a shot that was already taking longer than I wanted, so the experiment was less than scientific.  It did reveal to me that everything I had on hand would perform well in a real world situation, where I typically do allow C1 Pro to apply some sharpening....

100% Crops, Jpegs at maximum quality...


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scott morrish
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2009, 03:28:33 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Well, alrighty then.  Here's all the lenses we had on hand.  Sharpening is turned off, which may reveal poor focusing on my part.  This was at the end of a shot that was already taking longer than I wanted, so the experiment was less than scientific.  It did reveal to me that everything I had on hand would perform well in a real world situation, where I typically do allow C1 Pro to apply some sharpening....

100% Crops, Jpegs at maximum quality...


FWIW, the images attached (thanks CBarrett) show the 35mm to be the poor-relation in the Phase/Mamiya line up sampled here... at least to my eyes?  
Out of interest, i am curious if the open shadows of the 47mm are a result of the qualities of the lens concerned, or subjective processing of the raw file in comparison to the other files?

Scott
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scott morrish
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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2009, 03:40:28 PM »
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Thanks to all, for your feedback on this thread.

Having already tested the P65 with the new Phase lenses, i am now going to be testing several HC primes with a P65 in a week or so. The way i work will not add up to any kind of scientific comparison at all (i'm just not that clever!), but it should allow a real-world evaluation that suits my needs.

Thanks again to everyone,
Scott
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2009, 03:40:58 PM »
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Quote from: vgogolak
The Scheider looks like it beats the pants off the other two

nothing like a non retro lens(it was that one, yes?)

I would be curious what the old Hasey 30mm (yes, fisheye, but imagealign can fix)  (40mm hassey maybe too much distotion for interiors, esp IF) or Contax 35mm do with this shot

Victor
I have 2 old Schneider 47s, one XL (110 degreesish) and i normal, and a Hassy 40 mm, with which I took this:

[attachment=14170:Cornwall...n__0100_.jpg]
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 03:44:42 PM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
vgogolak
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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2009, 04:12:52 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I have 2 old Schneider 47s, one XL (110 degreesish) and i normal, and a Hassy 40 mm, with which I took this:

[attachment=14170:Cornwall...n__0100_.jpg]

Well, if that's with 50MP, that's what I think we all expect to see at 100%.

The Mamyia lenses just don't seem to have it, but then they are no where near the Hasey prices, so there SHOULD be a difference (in the best of all possible worlds!  :-)

I suppose I should get an interior to show you,
 but here is a:

 100% crop
of a P65+ file
at the right edge of a scene
from a 35mm lens
wide open at f3.5

It's what I expect from a top lens.

It the Contac 645

Victor
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 04:14:26 PM by vgogolak » Logged
Nick_T
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« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2009, 04:12:54 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I have 2 old Schneider 47s, one XL (110 degreesish) and i normal, and a Hassy 40 mm, with which I took this:

[attachment=14170:Cornwall...n__0100_.jpg]

Was this done using all four Metz flashes?
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Dustbak
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« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2009, 04:15:17 PM »
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Difficult to say anything about the last image since we don't know how it should look. What I do notice is some CA here and there, this is absolutely not there when using HC lenses on a DAC enabled system.

While my Schneider Digitar lenses might be in a totally different league than my HC lenses. Visibly better in most areas, it is especially with distortion and CA that DAC shows its strength.

It seems such a waste to use HC lenses on anything that hasn't got DAC.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 04:16:33 PM by Dustbak » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2009, 06:04:43 PM »
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Quote from: Nick_T
Was this done using all four Metz flashes?
Yes - one on the floor in the kitchen area, one out of shot to the left, one near camera, and one bounced off the ceiling near camera - it would have looked better if I had had diffusers or umbrellas, but I think I can get good results with little more than a handful of gear that does not take much time to set up.

I do have a four head 1 Kws Bowens system, and a 6 Kws Elinchrom system - but not when 2 people go away for a few days in a 2 seater!
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BobDavid
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« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2009, 09:06:18 PM »
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My experience with the Mamiya 35mm lens is that it is sharp in the center. At anywhere from a couple feet to about 30 feet, it's reasonably sharp in the corners. At infinity, the corners get very soft. In fact, on a 48MM X 36MM sensor, 20% of the east and the west sides of the frame are unacceptably soft at all apertures. I sent the lens to MAC for calibration and it came back worse.
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vgogolak
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« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2009, 07:01:16 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
Difficult to say anything about the last image since we don't know how it should look. What I do notice is some CA here and there, this is absolutely not there when using HC lenses on a DAC enabled system.

Well, it was supposed to look like a swimsuit model!  
But, seriously...
This is a 100% crop, and you are viewing 1/3 the pixels per inch that it would print- but I still don't see where there is CA. However full aperture, at the edge, it is possible in a high contract situation (esp backlighting as we had here.)

Point was more on detail and sharpness (latter can be fixed, former not)

Anyway, what I have seen of HC lenses is impressive and possibility to do digital APO, well, if you need it...

For arch/interiors, why wouldn't a pro prefer a view camera? You get the movements and the great lenses, with the same back

BTW, can the hasselblad back come off? I thought only H1 and H2.

Anyway, All systems have their price point, and for the most part, commerce is efficient. Arguments that say a Mimayia or canon or Nikon lens are going to perform like a schneider, Zeiss or Hasselblad don't make sense. If they do make such a lens of comparable quality they will capture the market. But as I understand it the sheer cost of lens blanks, and the extra time in forming and the accuracy in positiong and testing all cost money. I am surprised some of the low volume lenses, like the schneider/Rodenstocks are as cheap as they are wil all the hand work assemby and testing.

That said, I have seen carpenders building fine million dollar homes with a $15 hammer, and others building junk with a $50 hammer (of course I am remembering back-they all use power nailers now  :-)
I would assume same with photography; once you hit a certain level of performance, and Mamyia lenses mostly do that with a few exceptions noted here, you can get the quality product out you desire.

regards
Victor
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 07:03:36 AM by vgogolak » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2009, 08:07:44 AM »
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Quote from: vgogolak
Well, it was supposed to look like a swimsuit model!  
But, seriously...
This is a 100% crop, and you are viewing 1/3 the pixels per inch that it would print- but I still don't see where there is CA. However full aperture, at the edge, it is possible in a high contract situation (esp backlighting as we had here.)

Point was more on detail and sharpness (latter can be fixed, former not)

Anyway, what I have seen of HC lenses is impressive and possibility to do digital APO, well, if you need it...

For arch/interiors, why wouldn't a pro prefer a view camera? You get the movements and the great lenses, with the same back

BTW, can the hasselblad back come off? I thought only H1 and H2.

Anyway, All systems have their price point, and for the most part, commerce is efficient. Arguments that say a Mimayia or canon or Nikon lens are going to perform like a schneider, Zeiss or Hasselblad don't make sense. If they do make such a lens of comparable quality they will capture the market. But as I understand it the sheer cost of lens blanks, and the extra time in forming and the accuracy in positiong and testing all cost money. I am surprised some of the low volume lenses, like the schneider/Rodenstocks are as cheap as they are wil all the hand work assemby and testing.

That said, I have seen carpenders building fine million dollar homes with a $15 hammer, and others building junk with a $50 hammer (of course I am remembering back-they all use power nailers now  :-)
I would assume same with photography; once you hit a certain level of performance, and Mamyia lenses mostly do that with a few exceptions noted here, you can get the quality product out you desire.

regards
Victor

You are right sometimes good enough is good enough.

The H3 can also be used on a view camera but you need to make some arrangements. The other option is the CF which I use.

I see CA in many places in this image. I see it at the edges of the beams, the edges of the tiles, the bottom of the toaster, the watercooker, the wall outlet, etc.. Most of it is of the Red/Green type. Now, people could argue this will hardly be visible in the end or it can be corrected but it is there. I do have clients that notice it. Especially the ones that like to crop out 100% details. It is mostly there at the edges especially in areas of high contrast (where you obviously expect it). I can even see it looking at a downsized version of the image.

I have seen the same with my Digitars on the Rollei X-Act. This is why I find it so remarkable and handy it is gone with DAC. I am thinking about using the HTS. It is interesting comparing this with the X-act. The HC lenses are absolutely no match for the Digitars in most areas but in all these areas the HC lenses are 'good enough' for me. Add the bonus of no CA and no distortion together with movements it becomes a very compelling alternative in many cases.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 12:49:22 PM by Dustbak » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
The H3 can also be used on a view camera but you need to make some arrangements. The other option is the CF which I use.
Tomorrow I collect the adaptor and sliding back to connect my H3d11-50 to my Sinar P3 and apo-digitars ... should be a serious combination.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2009, 06:02:59 PM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
You are right sometimes good enough is good enough.

The H3 can also be used on a view camera but you need to make some arrangements. The other option is the CF which I use.

I see CA in many places in this image. I see it at the edges of the beams, the edges of the tiles, the bottom of the toaster, the watercooker, the wall outlet, etc.. Most of it is of the Red/Green type. Now, people could argue this will hardly be visible in the end or it can be corrected but it is there. I do have clients that notice it. Especially the ones that like to crop out 100% details. It is mostly there at the edges especially in areas of high contrast (where you obviously expect it). I can even see it looking at a downsized version of the image.

I have seen the same with my Digitars on the Rollei X-Act. This is why I find it so remarkable and handy it is gone with DAC. I am thinking about using the HTS. It is interesting comparing this with the X-act. The HC lenses are absolutely no match for the Digitars in most areas but in all these areas the HC lenses are 'good enough' for me. Add the bonus of no CA and no distortion together with movements it becomes a very compelling alternative in many cases.


In my testing the Hasselblad HC lenses and Phase One digital lenses are extremely close when it comes to sharpness (the only criteria I was testing at the time). The difference - when there was one - was very slight and varied depending on the aperture used. Some apertures were sharper with the Hc lenses, some with the P1 lenses.

I would expect the Mamiya analogue lenses - especially at their cost - to compare not quite as well. Let's also remember that there are a wealth of profiled lens correction options of our own in Capture One 4.8 and not just on the Phase One lenses, but also on profiled Contax and HC glass too. And manually, one can make lens adjustments to Schneider Digitars or any other lens they wish. The corrections work amazingly well.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2009, 08:29:58 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
In my testing the Hasselblad HC lenses and Phase One digital lenses are extremely close when it comes to sharpness (the only criteria I was testing at the time). The difference - when there was one - was very slight and varied depending on the aperture used. Some apertures were sharper with the Hc lenses, some with the P1 lenses.

I would expect the Mamiya analogue lenses - especially at their cost - to compare not quite as well. Let's also remember that there are a wealth of profiled lens correction options of our own in Capture One 4.8 and not just on the Phase One lenses, but also on profiled Contax and HC glass too. And manually, one can make lens adjustments to Schneider Digitars or any other lens they wish. The corrections work amazingly well.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve, where do I find the profiled lens correction options in C1 4.8?  I can see (and always use) the correction for 28 mm D, but I don't see any other Phase or Mamiya lenses listed.

I can see lots of Hassy and Contax lenses!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 08:55:56 PM by billcb » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2009, 07:27:22 AM »
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Quote from: billcb
Steve, where do I find the profiled lens correction options in C1 4.8?  I can see (and always use) the correction for 28 mm D, but I don't see any other Phase or Mamiya lenses listed.

I can see lots of Hassy and Contax lenses!

They are not listed until you actually used a different lens. Like a 45mm will show up when you shot the image with the 45mm and you have it up on preview . When I chose the 45mm AF than all the buttons for corrections would light up
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Josh l.
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2009, 04:32:04 PM »
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has anyone compared the phase 1 lenses to the mamiya d lenses?

particularly the 75-150 and the 150 2.8
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 04:39:44 PM by Josh l. » Logged
etrump
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« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2009, 04:59:29 PM »
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Some of the example images posted here are pretty scary.  I just couldn't imagine new glass being that bad.

I have not used the Hassy glass but my experience has been pretty reasonable with the Mamiya glass.  

I find that when I do things properly I get excellent results with both the 28mm and 35mm.  

They are not as sharp as my technical camera w/Schneider Digitar 24 and 35 glass but I wouldn't expect a retrofocus lens to perform as well as a simple focus lens of that quality.   The physics simply don't support it.

I don't expect the older glass to perform at the same level as the newer digital glass but you would be hard pressed to notice it in a properly sharpened print until you get larger than 30x40.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 05:00:08 PM by etrump » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2009, 05:46:17 PM »
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Quote from: Josh l.
has anyone compared the phase 1 lenses to the mamiya d lenses?

particularly the 75-150 and the 150 2.8

The "Phase One" lenses are the same exact lens as the Mamiya D lenses.

The difference is that you get a 3 year warranty, can get your repairs/swaps done through the same dealer as your digital back/body.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2009, 05:47:27 PM »
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Quote from: Josh l.
has anyone compared the phase 1 lenses to the mamiya d lenses?

particularly the 75-150 and the 150 2.8

I was not aware that Phase actually makes any lenses, or even designs them for that matter.
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bcooter
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« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2009, 07:09:25 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
The "Phase One" lenses are the same exact lens as the Mamiya D lenses.

The difference is that you get a 3 year warranty, can get your repairs/swaps done through the same dealer as your digital back/body.


Are they the same price, or is there a premium charge for the warranty?

What is the regular warranty on the Mamiya lenses?

thx.

B
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