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Author Topic: Windows workstation, what are you building or buying today?  (Read 13155 times)
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 06:54:57 PM »
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Funny, I was checked the Dell refurbs, and the 24GB was my aim (to populate all at 4gb per stick). there were 2 machines above$3K.

I surely dont want a mini tower, so my start price was about $1250 in the 950 processor with 6GB ram.  
Anything like more drives and 1gb vid card or sound card, kicked it up to $1500-1700.
The system I have above using pretty much the "top" components with 16GB (using 4GB per stick x 4 /16gb is about $750. room for 8more) with all the extras...drive bay, the fan control. the faster RAM, the Asus mobo, the vid card, the CASE (one of the most important parts, as it will make or break things for upgrades and changes.(the case in my list holds 12-15 drives!).  I will likely have this thing installed with the 6TB and the 3 scratch drives plus the OS drive......For the SAME price as refurb Dell! All doing 64bit (which will be interesting in compatibility with certain plugs, drivers etc)

I would hate to get the Dell then realize the ram is specific and hard to upgrade to more with faster speeds, etc.
If you are happy to build your own, and install the OS, which takes about a day(maybe more to perfect things with your PS tweaks), and you cross your fingers all the parts have no issues, and no shipping glitches...Provided that you have another machine running connected to the web for updates and patches!....Then it is the thing to do. You get all the top gear with years to come to expand. But when something goes down, don't look for a support # to call...hehehe. I have at least 1 system running along the main editing machines in case one needs a swap out...or in this case you can't get the new machine up and running in time, and all a sudden you need to work on something.

FYI, HP also had a good deal with some rebates for those not wanting to build a system.

I am having second thoughts as I am getting reactions from tech folks that my Q9650 processor is a good 4core 3.0ghz, and I would see major gains with just new Mobo and RAM.  So, yes I am now a confused individual...hahaha..

Going through the trouble of removing the Mobo, the ram, and reconnecting everything, and saving about $1000 worth not having a completely new system?  Besides my OS is in a need for a FRESH install.

My question is.....

What Motherboards is compatible with the Q9560 cpu AND support the i7 cpu with the DDR3 1333mhz memory? Do the i7 Mobo all handle the older cpus that are LGA775, but just not mention in the specifications? or are they different?
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mmurph
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 12:02:04 AM »
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Sorry Phil, I just wiped out a long post when I dropped my mouse. Quick post now in psuedo-english to replace it. More tommorow.

**********************************

As far as Dell: If you went that route, I would just buy the base machine with 6GB of RAM< a 600GB hhard drive, and teh processor. Then you can add opn RAM< storage, etc. much more cheaply!  

I can't buy the CPU, the OS, a motherboard, the base RAM, the case, and a power supply as cheaply as I can get teh base unit from Dell.  But I can buy hard drives and ram much more cheaply than teh add ons from them!    I don't mind building, but it just doesn't pay as long as teh Dell has teh basic specs for growth.


Quote
I surely dont want a mini tower, so my start price was about $1250 in the 950 processor with 6GB ram.
Anything like more drives and 1gb vid card or sound card, kicked it up to $1500-1700.
Quote


Yeah, add those all in yourself. The good news is taht you have enough slots on that thing to add in the 2GB RAM sticks.  Another 6GB of RAM would only be $100 for OCZ 6GB!  A GEForce 9500 1GB is only $55 right now, so $55 to $125 for a video card.



OK, next.  The biggest question to you on the i7 I think is this: How much RAM do you need in the new machine?

If you need 24GB of RAM, that is going to cost a ton of money with DDR3 4gb modules!  The Kingston 12GB modules cost $1,400, so $2,800 for 24GB.  Then you need to buy the RAM you are going to keep and use for the long term.

If you can get by with 12GB of RAM, the whole solution is much cheaper.  

I can't find an X58 mobo taht says it supports the quad. No info on the Intel site either. It might work, but ...

So I would say, try to upgrade the existing solution with the quad for as littel money as possible. Then move on later to the i7 or whatever is next when you arenb;t right on that point of diminishing - almost negative - returns!  Throwing big bucks at small gains.

What box is the 9650 in right now? Does it make sense to upgrade that box?  This is what I would do:

Buy a cheap 775 mother board. There aren't a lot that support more than 8GB of RAM, but I saw 2 decent ones trhat would support 16GB. One was $80, the other $120.

They both only have 4 slots foir DDR2. So you have to go with the more expensive 4GB sticks/.  The Corsair is $175 for 8GB. So 2x8GB = 16GB at $350.

Add a 600-750 watt power supply if you need it.  $80.  Install Windows 7 for now.  Total $120+$350+$80= $550 to get the quad going (or $470 w/o the power supply.) With the two 10K drives that you have, that should scream!  If you could find mobo's that had 6 or 8 slots and could use 2GB sticks, you  could do 3x4GB at $50 each, $150 for RAM + $100 mobo = $250 + $80 power supply!  Cheap!

From there you can tweak it little by little: add SSD, video card, etc. from there as needed, but you shgould have most of what you need with the additional RAM!

Also, FWIW: I did the Photoshop tests on a box I have here. A Pentium D 2.80 GHz, 3GB of RAM< Photoshop CS2, Windows XP SP2 32 bit.  Total was 654.  Extrude was 160 seconds, Smart Blur was 106 seconds.

your quad should kick ass compared to my CPU! Get taht thing on 64 bit, get the 12GB of RAM in there, it shopuld be a great machine for $250-$500!!      

Ugh, what a mess of a post. Sorry. Hope it is on track.

Cheers,
Michael
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 12:03:02 AM by mmurph » Logged
Plekto
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 02:23:31 PM »
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Photoshop doesn't require a fast processor.  It really requires getting a fast swap file/temp directory for all of the tiny background tasks that it does and the layers and manipulation and so on.

A standard 8GB system with a fast SSD or ram drive is enough.  Just getting the temp directories off of the boot drive is a godsend for speed.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 03:27:33 PM »
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Thanks Michael, I understood the post :-)

Here is what I figure with 12GB Ram.(See system build below)

The SSD Is something down the line when it is mainstream with the faster write.
For now I will make the scratch disk across 2 10K drives  (I have 3 10k drives, but I might want to use one for the OS). btw...Acronis Backup software makes moving things around very easy.

So for $1500, I get much more at newegg than I would at Dell(Major price is putting it together myself).
Costing with $200-300 more than the Dell starting point.

Plekto...8GB is enough, I might agree.  but doesn't the file size matter? Lets say you have a 1.5 GB file that has bunch of layers..Doesn't continuing the work on it, having the options to undo, and even making more layers etc take more and more? And at what point does the 8GB get maXXXed out?  Doesn't the fact that I have C1 open, and Acrobat, and InDesign, Color calibration software, ACDSeePro(For those ditching Bridge) also tax my RAM? considering I did clear out all the junk that StartsUp on boot, like QuickTime and the few others.
Using dual screen, I am always going back and forth between ACDSeePro2.5 and CS4.  How about a number of plug-ins that are installed...(even if I dont use 85% of them).

So where does the RAM get tapped out for scratch?

Michael, the case I have is max... I have a Mid tower with 7drives stuffed in it, the Mobo as we discuss needs to change, the ram does also. Your numbers sound good, say $400 I should be good to go.

So the options are....

$400-500 (I think I would be happy with 12GB DDR2 ram)  for mobo and ram...plus all the time to clear the mobo and install new, with new ram, and reconnect all else, and do a clean install of a new OS, with ALL the software and tweaks(easy 1-2day project).  This will keep my Core2Quad Q9650 cpu.

OR

$1500 for All new gear with i7 3.0ghz 950cpu, and lots of extras(See image below) with 12GB DDR3 of RAM maxing out the mobo....plus repeat...all the time to clear the mobo and install new, with new ram, and reconnect all else, and do a clean install of a new OS, with ALL the software and tweaks(easy 1-2day project).

both systems would carry over my drives...10K on OS, and 2x 10K for Scratch (how much faster is 3drives vs2)  ..all 6TB data on eSATA using the 4drives-in3bay enclosures +2 in the case.
lets not count the 6TB RIAD backup I need to finish installing FREENAS on..(I never bought so many WD black caviar drives:-)

This makes me wonder how much a difference in speed my 1st option is vs the second.
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mmurph
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 04:53:18 PM »
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I think either makes sense. The Quad should be pretty close to the i7 for Photoshop I think. I would probably just rebuild that.  

Here are some numbers to ballpark it all:


From the IXBT Excel spread sheet. The i7 has better times than a 9300 quad:

PHOTO           i7   Core 2 Quad 9300
Photoshop      
Blur   0:03:26   0:05:18
Color   0:01:00   0:01:08
Filters   0:03:42   0:04:42
Light   0:01:18   0:01:48
Rotate   0:01:28   0:02:30
Sharp   0:01:28   0:02:14
Size   0:00:34   0:00:52
Transform   0:01:11   0:01:58
Group Score 166   114

Here are some passmark benchmark numbers, this time to a Q9650. But testing multiple cores, not a PS test. About 40% more raw power in the i7:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

i7 950: 6,196
Q9650: 4,443


Here are the "official" Photoshop test suite numbers from DriverHeaven for the i7. This one done by them, not users, in case you did not see them:

The Core i7 system is based around a 965EE, 3x2gb DDR3-1333, Intel SSD/Raptor (again a 64bit Vista OS installation).

   Core i7
   64 bit 3.2ghz
Texturiser   1.3
CMYK   1.1
RGB   1.2
Ink Outlines   16.5
Dust & Stratches   1.4
Watercolor   16.5
Texturiser   1.4
Stained Glass   10.6
Lighting   1.2
Mosiac   8
Extrude   59.6
Smart Blur   43.3
Underpainting   16.6
Palette   14.4
Sponge   22.8
Total   215.9


Quote
I got 428.5

So basically 1/2 teh time as your current set-up.  But I think you can get almost tehre.  64 bit alone looks liek abouyt a 7% improvement.


Finally, a DDR2 Q9650 system just barely beat - almost tied -  an i7 920 DDR3 system in this CNET Photoshop CS3 test.  But the 9650 had 8GB of RAM to 6GB for the i7. Still pretty close.  Your i7 950 would probably be a bit better than the Q9650 when you are done.

http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/velocity-...l?tag=mncol;txt

Ugh!  Too many numbers.  What next?  

Best,
Michael
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 05:41:20 PM »
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Thanks for getting those numbers Michael! Very helpful to put things in perspective!

I am leaning towards a new machine as I can use another (Q9560) station on another desk. I wanna mess with it once, and forget it for as long as possible.
( What I will wait for is the Windows7 release. The most painful part of it all is the install of new OS, and all the software and the tweaks to get the workflow singing a sweet tune. The last thing I wanna do is have a beta running or Vista, and later need to do a clean install of Win7 ALL over again....reminds me...Forgot the cost of Win7.  I have purchased XP64bit almost a year ago.  I tried to get it running and had to back out due to too many incompatibles. So I hope I can upgrade my license from that.

come to think of it, I will likely need a couple days on massaging my 32bit apps to the 64bit OS alone.  likely need to use vertual machine on some things.
Which makes me wonder...will I need a different version of CS4 for 64bit?!  


Since I see the chart you posted, it got me dreaming...
It would be interesting to have a mobo that pipes together multiple CPU's and memeory of different systems....  meaning you take 3 or 4 systems and have some port like a firewire ..and you link the computers together. Only one is booted up with the OS, the others boot to some subsystem, that takes all the instructions and spreads it across all the computers (mem spead would be an issue...to say the least)...hahaha

With a bathroom remodel and the 6TB raid I recently got started, and this new system.....I better get some calls with projects!!!

Also forgot my usual "routine" I have been following for the past 4 systemss...Always keep my main editing PC running. build and stage the new system, then cut over when the new system is running and can replace the old.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 05:44:51 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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Plekto
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 05:50:23 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Plekto...8GB is enough, I might agree.  but doesn't the file size matter? Lets say you have a 1.5 GB file that has bunch of layers..Doesn't continuing the work on it, having the options to undo, and even making more layers etc take more and more? And at what point does the 8GB get maXXXed out?

Windows ALWAYS uses its swap file for what it thinks are background tasks and Photoshop does as well.  If they are on the same SATA channel(even if separate drives) they fight each other for bandwidth.  If they are on the same drive, they fight each other for access to the head/build up a rather long process backlog) .  Notice the enormous cleanup of files and thrashing that happens when you shut down Photoshop after a long session?  That's because the hard drive goes hundreds of times slower than memory.

The trick here is to turn all of that swap space(s) into ram or something much faster than a hard drive.    If the swap space is as fast as ram or close to it, you essentially have unlimited ram.  Why this might be good is because 4GB modules are pricey as hell right now.  2gb modules are dirt cheap.  Loading 8gb in ram and 8gb in a SSD might cost a lot less than 16GB of ram(and since the thing is a separate physical drive in either case, you can fool Windows and gain enormous speed across all applications)

Note - iirc, Windows 7 and Linux/BSD will allow you to properly turn off all of this is you have enough ram - but Photoshop doesn't understand this and will toss crap anyways into a temp space/directory - and that needs to be moved to a ramdisk or SSD at the least.  Partitioning off 2GB, for instance, for Photoshop as a swap space/directory alone is a cheap way to see improvements.  This can be done with many ram disk utilities in a few minutes to try out.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 06:27:29 PM »
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Pletko.. you mention RANDISK !!...I used to have this card in my system with 4gb(1gb sticks), and I recently took it out when I got the 2 10K 150GB drives.  The RAM I have in the Gigabyte RAMDISK is Kingston KVR400.
Its is sitting here...maybe swap the ram in here out with 8gb and use it again? I forgot about this thing.

btw, how do you check if the SATA drives are on the same or different channels?  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 06:43:58 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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Plekto
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 07:42:34 PM »
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It's tricky.  If you're running RAID,  you likely cannot add another SATA drive to the machine.  If it's just extra drives, it won't make any difference really as the Gigabyte only operates at half of a SATA 2's maximum speed, so there's tons of overhead in that case)

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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 08:55:01 PM »
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Quote from: Plekto
It's tricky.  If you're running RAID,  you likely cannot add another SATA drive to the machine.  If it's just extra drives, it won't make any difference really as the Gigabyte only operates at half of a SATA 2's maximum speed, so there's tons of overhead in that case)

You would have to run RAID over a separate controller

Henrik
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2009, 12:30:54 AM »
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As of now I have....

OS on 10K 300gb drive/SATA
2x 10k 150gb that are going to be RAID 0, as I know that it will write much faster/ SATA
4x 1TB drives internal /SATA
3x1TB drives on external eSATA enclosures/eSATA
The 6TB of data gets backed up to other external drives, I regularly backup (that is getting moved to a NAS box shortly)./eSATA


I plan to run RAID0 on the 2 10k's that are dedicated for scratch
Is there a link that explains how I need to setup 2 differnt RAID controllers? I know that there are $300-600(for a good one) RAID controller cards that will do it, but is that the way to go?

Sounds like I got most of the hardware specs I need out of the way...How would I set this up to make things run snappy?


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mmurph
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« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2009, 03:52:36 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Forgot the cost of Win7.  I have purchased XP64bit almost a year ago.  I tried to get it running and had to back out due to too many incompatibles. So I hope I can upgrade my license from that.

Newegg has the upgrade to Windows 7 Premium at $50 ($70 off it's "regular" $120 price.)

It doesn't quite say upgrade from what - XP, Vista, which version, etc. Guess I'll check the MS site.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16832116713


Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade - Retail
Price valid till 7/11, or while supplies last(limit 1 per customer)    

Original Price: $119.99
You Save: $70.00
$49.99
Free Shipping




OK, also $100 Professional version with XP emulation mode and $220 "Ultimate" with no discount at MS site. Limit 3 per version at MS. Upgrade from XP or Vista.

http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Windo...mhpfeature_win7
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2009, 02:16:36 AM »
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According to this article...http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/upgrade-advisor.aspx

Xp and Vista is good to go, but Home is $49, and the Pro is $99

There is also a MS advisor tool that will check the hardware.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7...de-advisor.aspx
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2009, 12:07:37 PM »
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I just pre-ordered the Pro version for $100, but it is limited to 1 per customer
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2009, 09:02:41 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
As of now I have....

OS on 10K 300gb drive/SATA
2x 10k 150gb that are going to be RAID 0, as I know that it will write much faster/ SATA
4x 1TB drives internal /SATA
3x1TB drives on external eSATA enclosures/eSATA
The 6TB of data gets backed up to other external drives, I regularly backup (that is getting moved to a NAS box shortly)./eSATA


I plan to run RAID0 on the 2 10k's that are dedicated for scratch
Is there a link that explains how I need to setup 2 differnt RAID controllers? I know that there are $300-600(for a good one) RAID controller cards that will do it, but is that the way to go?

Sounds like I got most of the hardware specs I need out of the way...How would I set this up to make things run snappy?

Phil,

You can plug in as many controllers as you can fit, as long as the OS can allocate resources to it, I had in my old P4 box four raid controllers, and it was all running, but by today's standard very slow :-)

unfortunately, as far as I know, you can not do RAID across multiple controllers, but some one know that you can please let me know because that could maybe increase the speed of things (anyway just a tangent)

good luck and test your system before you change it so you can see the change in numbers

Henrik
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 12:48:43 AM »
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Quote from: tived
Phil,

You can plug in as many controllers as you can fit, as long as the OS can allocate resources to it, I had in my old P4 box four raid controllers, and it was all running, but by today's standard very slow :-)

unfortunately, as far as I know, you can not do RAID across multiple controllers, but some one know that you can please let me know because that could maybe increase the speed of things (anyway just a tangent)

good luck and test your system before you change it so you can see the change in numbers

Henrik


Which controllers are recommended?

Good point on the testing.
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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 07:27:05 AM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Which controllers are recommended?

Good point on the testing.

Hi Phil,

which controller is a good point,

Areca http://www.areca.com.tw/
3ware http://www.3ware.com/
LSI http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_h...raid/index.html
and the all time favorite Adaptec, stable but not very fast              http://www.adaptec.com

but as you may know in the end of town, speed isn't everything and therefore some controllers put more importance's on data security then I/O performance... so, which to choose is a very good question. also are you going for 4 channels 8 channels or even more, or do you go for two controllers to distribute the load :-) ...with questions like this for almost every part it is no surprise why many people choose off the shelf boxes, like Dell HP or Mac

I would say, go with one of the two first if performance is the most important issue, actually I think 3Ware would be the market leader (in terms of performance/speed) but don't quote me.

if you choose a RAID controller with cache, try to see if you can get a battery backup for it too, so in case of power failure, you don't loose your work.

good luck, and do make a test before swapping things out

Henrik
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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 02:04:00 PM »
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Henrik,

Looks like there is a range from $180-350, then jump to $450-600 +

The pricey ones take more drives and have external port. I wonder if there is also a speed difference or a more reliable/faster chipset used ?

here is a list of what I am considering...
I don't want to spend more than $300, unless there is some major reason.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816118087
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816103102
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816103050
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816116065

As far as battery backup, do you mean on the card?  I have about 5000 watts of APC backup for power failure.
I considered a generator, but the install of the APC was much easier :-)

btw, HD Tune is a nice app for drive speed and tenp/monitor etc.  
my
WD Raptor 300gb drive average 105mb/s (7.1ms seek); burst 180mb, (The 150gb slightly faster bursts 192mb/s))
WD Black caviar1TB 7.2K is 89average(12.2ms seek) burst 140mb
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 02:20:20 PM »
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I checked out 3ware and they are all pretty much the same features..., just more drive support on the upper models.
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2009, 01:28:36 AM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Henrik,

Looks like there is a range from $180-350, then jump to $450-600 +

The pricey ones take more drives and have external port. I wonder if there is also a speed difference or a more reliable/faster chipset used ?

here is a list of what I am considering...
I don't want to spend more than $300, unless there is some major reason.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816118087
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816103102
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816103050
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16816116065

As far as battery backup, do you mean on the card?  I have about 5000 watts of APC backup for power failure.
I considered a generator, but the install of the APC was much easier :-)

btw, HD Tune is a nice app for drive speed and tenp/monitor etc.  
my
WD Raptor 300gb drive average 105mb/s (7.1ms seek); burst 180mb, (The 150gb slightly faster bursts 192mb/s))
WD Black caviar1TB 7.2K is 89average(12.2ms seek) burst 140mb


Hi Phil,

for backup I was thinking of the controller, I have a HP DL-server with RAID which also has a battery backup unit to as well as a APC for the whole system, just a thought, but I think you could probably get away with the APC, I got mine, just incase I wasn't using it on site and I would not have an APC available... really just doubling up :-)

Henrik
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