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Author Topic: Faulty HP Paper  (Read 6271 times)
ThePhotoDude
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« on: May 29, 2009, 09:20:02 AM »
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Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers
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neil snape
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 10:06:39 AM »
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Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers

Good to know the lot number. I was just going to buy some rolls. I find it is the best value in a extra heavy weight satin paper.

I haven't seen any logos on Pro Satin which is one of the advantages. There are two weights, maybe it's only the thicker rolls which are without logos.
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ThePhotoDude
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 10:50:38 AM »
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Quote from: neil snape
Good to know the lot number. I was just going to buy some rolls. I find it is the best value in a extra heavy weight satin paper.

I haven't seen any logos on Pro Satin which is one of the advantages. There are two weights, maybe it's only the thicker rolls which are without logos.

Two weights? I only know one, 300gsm, comes in 24" rolls Q8759A and 44" rolls Q8840A, both same weight.

I have always had logos on mine. Interesting, what country are you in?

Quick sideline here Neil, in your opinion what Satin finish paper do you find the best?

John
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:50:54 AM by ThePhotoDude » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 11:42:17 AM »
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FWIW:  Never seen a logo (thankfully) on any of mine from US sources.
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neil snape
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 01:26:28 PM »
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Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Two weights? I only know one, 300gsm, comes in 24" rolls Q8759A and 44" rolls Q8840A, both same weight.

I have always had logos on mine. Interesting, what country are you in?

Quick sideline here Neil, in your opinion what Satin finish paper do you find the best?

John
Europe ah now I I remember it was the HP FA Smooth that is different in sheets than roll. In any case I've never seen a logo on Pro Satin sheets or roll.

The Pro Satin is the best Satin I know of outside of any rag paper base. It is not the highest gamut but the surface is really nice and usually error free. In portfolios other less robust paper is fine but for prints for sale I think Pro Satin is great.
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ThePhotoDude
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2009, 07:51:11 AM »
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It's come back to haunt me .... My supplier resent me two new rolls of this paper, from a different batch, it looked good to start, but I have noticed the problem again... Striping down the page, looks like ink density, only notice it with large continuous tones.

This is costing me a small fortune, in reprints, inks, time.

Am fed up now, a knee jerk reaction perhaps but I want to jump ship from HP media. Anybody tell me of a replacement to Pro Satin? Not looking for cheaper alternative, but something that can equal or better the HP Pro Satin in print quality, gamut, texture and quality control and consistency between rolls.

I've seen a few people recommend Red River here, but I cannot find a UK supplier.

Thanks
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Colorwave
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2009, 11:16:27 AM »
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I had some issues early on with faint soft grooves (not star wheel or pinch roller caused) in the paper that were not very obvious until printed on.  Have you contacted HP about replacement.  I don't think they can help you with ink or time, but they replaced some paper for me.
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dkeyes
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2009, 11:20:47 PM »
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Quote from: ThePhotoDude
Just a little heads up,

Have received two rolls of this paper, and both giving the same print quality problems, ink density on the right hand side is not even, causing marks, like faint dark bars down the print. You can only see it with solid tones.

Have called supplier and they suggest faulty batch, problem with coating.
There is no HP branding on the back of this paper either, when there normally is.

Lot Number : 00401626

Cheers
I've had the same problem off and on for over a year only on the 44" rolls, never on the 24" rolls. Thought HP had solved this issue about 6 months ago since my last 8 rolls were good. Just went through 1/3 of my recent Pro satin 44" roll and problem showed up again. Lot Number: 04107520

Like most people using this paper, I haven't found anything comparable I want to switch to. I'm hoping HP gets this figured out but I'm not too hopeful since this has been going on for so long. FYI, I've been buying my paper through CostCentral since I've found they have the best price I could find.
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deanwork
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2009, 09:27:40 AM »
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Quote from: dkeyes
I've had the same problem off and on for over a year only on the 44" rolls, never on the 24" rolls. Thought HP had solved this issue about 6 months ago since my last 8 rolls were good. Just went through 1/3 of my recent Pro satin 44" roll and problem showed up again. Lot Number: 04107520

Like most people using this paper, I haven't found anything comparable I want to switch to. I'm hoping HP gets this figured out but I'm not too hopeful since this has been going on for so long. FYI, I've been buying my paper through CostCentral since I've found they have the best price I could find.



I just ended up with a disaster job that is costing me a lot of money. Doing a whole exhibition with Hp Pro Satin, 30x40 prints with black and gray backgrounds. I've gone through two rolls of 44" paper and just ordered another another before I read this.
I called HP and they denied any issue with the paper.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 07:47:36 PM by deanwork » Logged
deanwork
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2009, 10:49:30 AM »
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Have the HP engineer out here now and he's going round and round with his corporate staff trying to find someone who will admit to this issue.

We are going to get to the bottom of this one way or another if it kills me.

He pointed out to me that you can actually see the bands of uneven coating on the 44" roll before it goes through the machine. This is apparently only happening with 44" rolls where you print an even tone in the background.

I'll keep you guys informed.

By reviewing this site I see the exact same issue was heavily discussed going back to 2007.

Does anyone have  a suggestion for a satin rc paper to use for this job. I've already lost about a grand on this job and I can't afford to loose more. I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john
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dkeyes
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 11:25:54 AM »
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Quote from: deanwork
Have the HP engineer out here now and he's going round and round with his corporate staff trying to find someone who will admit to this issue.

We are going to get to the bottom of this one way or another if it kills me.

He pointed out to me that you can actually see the bands of uneven coating on the 44" roll before it goes through the machine. This is apparently only happening with 44" rolls where you print an even tone in the background.

I'll keep you guys informed.

By reviewing this site I see the exact same issue was heavily discussed going back to 2007.

Does anyone have  a suggestion for a satin rc paper to use for this job. I've already lost about a grand on this job and I can't afford to loose more. I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john
I purchased a roll last week from Provantage and 44" roll is fine. Price is lowest I've found recently. It seems to depend on which warehouse the rolls drop ship from. I'm assuming many of these places get their paper from the same warehouses around the country. I'll see if my assumptions are correct when I get my last bad roll replaced. I asked Cost Central (where I bought it from) to drop ship from another werehouse (other than west coast). All my recent good rolls start with the serial number 2.

HP knows about the paper issues, I and another person on LL talked with a guy in charge of this paper at HP in San Diego and sent rolls back to him. He personally replaced 3 rolls for me last year. All have a coating issue you can see at an angle when looking into the light. Usually near the middle of the roll, 20" in on one side all the way through the roll. My guess/hope is these are old rolls in inventory since these serial numbers are similar to what I had over a year ago when the problems started. Too bad they didn't just recall the old lots.
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deanwork
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 12:44:24 PM »
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Yea they just called me and said they were aware of the problem after all, ( how sweet of them to admit....) though the phone support people and "engineers" certainly weren't  informed .
They say there was a problem 2 years ago and it was resolved. But,  IF that is true, we still have bad batches of this Pro Satin being circulated.

Let's see what happens when they replace this roll. Man I'm in the hole on this job, just what I needed this week.

All of these batches (made in Germany?) that were bad should have been recalled, obviously.
john
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 07:48:52 PM by deanwork » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 01:18:24 PM »
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John-
Try to get ink from them to cover your cost, as well.  I had tech support admit to having me do something that wasted a lot of my ink, and they sent me 7 new cartridges as a make good.  Since this is a known issue, they really have no excuse to let their sloppy handling of this be costing their loyal customers this late in the game.  You are out time and aggravation, even if the monetary side is compensated for.  Thankfully, I've had some other issues with the Pro Satin, but not this one.  I still occasionally get a round dents in the paper that are about the size of a BB.  Usually only one per print, and definitely not caused by the printer.  I've seen other types of paper defects before, but this is the only one that has had that type of flaw.
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jhein
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2009, 02:06:32 PM »
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Quote from: deanwork
I'm certainly not using Red River papers.

john

Ok, I'll bite.  I have used the Red River Satin papers with great success.  What issues have you had?

thanks
Jim
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deanwork
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2009, 02:37:00 PM »
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Well I haven't used it for rc work, but I have used various RR matte media for  designers that insisted on it over the years.

Their "premium" matt and "polar" matte that is so popular simply glows like a fire under a uv light. I have a lot of prints here that were done 3-4 years ago where the obas have burned out so totally that the paper base is now gray, really bad, worse than Epson "archival matte" by far, which is also totally loaded with obas. These prints that I have were even carefully stored in a print bin and in portfolios away from daylight for the most part. So they deteriorated ( under the same conditions as all my other paper samples) even in dark storage with low humidity and average temp. This was from different batches over several years.

They may not even make their rc papers, who knows. When you are doing work for other people that is supposed to last a life time, you can't afford to experiment with longevity. That is why I'm reluctant to start looking for a replacement for Pro Satin. There are so.......many companies that rebrand and remarket all kinds of satin rc paper for cheaper prices but how would I ever know what went into it. I'm too old to experiement anymore and don't consider that my job.

Some people like the Moab version, but once again they may or may not even be making it or have ever had it tested.

john





Quote from: jhein
Ok, I'll bite.  I have used the Red River Satin papers with great success.  What issues have you had?

thanks
Jim
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MHMG
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2009, 07:33:15 PM »
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Quote from: deanwork
Their "premium" matt and "polar" matte that is so popular simply glows like a fire under a uv light. I have a lot of prints here that were done 3-4 years ago where the obas have burned out so totally that the paper base is now gray, really bad, worse than Epson "archival matte" by far, which is also totally loaded with obas. These prints that I have were even carefully stored in a print bin and in portfolios away from daylight for the most part. So they deteriorated ( under the same conditions as all my other paper samples) even in dark storage with low humidity and average temp. This was from different batches over several years.

They may not even make their rc papers, who knows. When you are doing work for other people that is supposed to last a life time, you can't afford to experiment with longevity. That is why I'm reluctant to start looking for a replacement for Pro Satin. There are so.......many companies that rebrand and remarket all kinds of satin rc paper for cheaper prices but how would I ever know what went into it.


It took some revisitation to the OBA issue for me to figure this out, but I've concluded recently that OBAs in traditional silver gelatin papers and OBAs in microporous inkjet papers are not on the same scale for susceptibility to failure. OBAs buried under gelatin coatings have reasonable protection against ozone, whereas OBAs in microporous coatings do not. While OBA's can and do burn out from light exposure, the gas fade issue, IMHO, is the bigger issue. Recall the serious problems of gas fading and inkjet dyes. Well, OBA's are dyes, but the manufacturers have not taken the same steps to improve OBA performance that they did to improve dye stability. Some of this indifference can be blamed on the fact that industry-sponsored consumer fade criteria have liberal tolerances for media white point discoloration which are not triggered by OBA failure. OBAs essentially get a free pass in the longevity rating, but most discriminating viewers will notice the changes in paper color due to OBA burnout well before the consumer-oriented display life ratings predict.  Moreover, to say that a paper will simply revert to its "natural" color when the OBA fluorescence dies, ignores the fact that gas fading is often not uniform. Preferential gas pollutant attack around the print edges causes non uniform loss of OBA fluorescence. Edges are usually more exposed to airflow than the center of the print when prints are stacked, placed in albums, etc.  The visual result is a print that looks significantly more discolored at the corners because the better preserved mid section of the print serves as a direct point of reference for the original cool white appearance that has now vanished non uniformly in other areas of the print.  Not very appealing!

Unfortunately, HP Pro Satin, although not as heavily OBA loaded as many of the RR papers with OBAs, is still pretty heavy on OBA content in its top coat. There are better performing RC papers out there (Canon Heavyweight Satin photographic paper, Epson Premium Luster, for example) with respect to restrained use of OBAs to achieve initial white point, and they clearly outperform HP Pro Satin in my light fastness tests. HP Pro Satin gets an industry rated 250+ year display rating that may be justified for non critical consumer photo judgements about "easily noticeable fade", but I have documented noticeable OBA fade in less than 20 Megalux hours in my light fade tests (equivalent to only 10 WIR years on display).

regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Colorwave
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2009, 08:06:05 PM »
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Quote from: MHMG
HP Pro Satin gets an industry rated 250+ year display rating that may be justified for non critical consumer photo judgements about "easily noticeable fade", but I have documented noticeable OBA fade in less than 20 Megalux hours in my light fade tests (equivalent to only 10 WIR years on display).

I'm sorry to hear that, as it is a top performing paper on an HP Z printer, otherwise.  That is certainly a big discrepancy, between 250 and 10 years, based on different criteria.

I thought that OBAs were a concern, but not a particularly short term issue until something recently made me a realize that they are much more a worry than I previously thought.  I had a short roll of HP Professional Matte Canvas that I failed to put away and had left standing on end, with a band of acid free paper securing it from unrolling.  The roll was nowhere near any direct sun, and only got extremely diffused natural light at reasonably low levels.  I had already switched to trying to print all my canvas work on Chromata White, but had a client that wanted the HP canvas instead.  

When I went to unroll it, I was shocked to see that the canvas was significantly whiter under the band than on either side, after just over a month's time.  At first I thought it must be a flaw in the coating, but then I checked and confirmed that it was the exact size of the area that was covered.  Granted, I live on a rock in the middle of the Pacific that has a lot of volcanic gasses in the air, but not enough that it is rotting our lungs, so it is perhaps a factor, but not extreme enough to justify this in only a few weeks time.  The vog is largely sulphur dioxide, and is worse some times than others, but I had asthma in California that has gone away since moving here, so I don't find it to be much more than a visual issue.  I confirmed that it was the OBA fading at work by putting an ultraviolet light on it.  The light area glowed brightly, and the darker area was unaffected.  I don't know whether to blame the gas issue or UVs, but either way, it is a significant concern.

I now have joined the OBA/"sky is falling" choir.  The HP Pro Satin is the paper that I have been the most reluctant to discontinue, but this news from Mark is another strike against it.  I still use some Hahnemuhle papers that have the OBAs cooked into the pulp, but prefer the ones without it altogether.  If a client insists, I tell them why I prefer to avoid them, but obviously the customer "knows best" and I print on what they request.  

I guess I need to start looking for another smooth satin paper without OBAs.  Breathing Color seems to be on the right track, but their papers aren't switched over just yet, and I don't think they even have a smooth satin paper in their line anyway.
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MHMG
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2009, 08:51:30 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
I now have joined the OBA/"sky is falling" choir.  The HP Pro Satin is the paper that I have been the most reluctant to discontinue, but this news from Mark is another strike against it.  I still use some Hahnemuhle papers that have the OBAs cooked into the pulp, but prefer the ones without it altogether.  If a client insists, I tell them why I prefer to avoid them, but obviously the customer "knows best" and I print on what they request.  

I guess I need to start looking for another smooth satin paper without OBAs.  Breathing Color seems to be on the right track, but their papers aren't switched over just yet, and I don't think they even have a smooth satin paper in their line anyway.

Well, the complete story is a little more complicated than just recommending against OBAs entirely. As in Hahnemuhle's case in many of their papers, when OBAs are used judiciously, sometimes for example in the paper core but not in the coating, the level of "whitening" added by the use of OBAs is no more than the level of batch-to-batch media white "leveling" in OBA-free papers imparted by additional dyes or colorants. And paper fibers and coatings can also be bleached by light. So, I've seen OBA-free papers shift a few LAB b* value units in the direction of getting cooler much like some OBA containing papers getting a few points warmer. Either way, color shifts in media white points represent some change in the visual appearance.

If I had to generalize, I'd say to avoid papers with media white CIELAB b* values more negative than about -3.5 (bluish in color). However, papers in the bluish b* range of -1.0 to -3.5 may color shift over time no more than some "natural" OBA-free papers that can go, for example from initial b* values of +2.0 to 4.0 towards 0.0.  In other words, OBA papers can shift yellow, but OBA-free papers can fade towards more blue in color.  Moreover, the only way to know total product performance including chemical interactions with the ink is to make a specific product test. Pigmented inks, although more immune to paper chemistry than dyes, are not totally immune.  Some papers will produce two to three time better light fastness results with a particular pigmented ink set than others.

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 07:50:33 AM by MHMG » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2009, 09:09:16 PM »
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I get it, Mark.  I mentioned that some of the Hahnemuhle papers I use have the OBA's integrated into the pulp, so I'm aware that there is a difference in where they are incorporated into the final product.  I'm happy to hear that you don't discourage them altogether, though, if used sparingly and appropriately.   Like many things, there are nuances that make the decision making process more complex than black and white. I suppose I should have said "approach with caution' instead of "avoid".

My UV light has proven quite informative in terms of evaluating the degree of OBA brightening present (at least on the top layers).  Some papers and canvases look like they were plugged into their own light source when thy have UV to excite them.  One of the worst is Breathing Color's Optica One, a very nice paper, but one that they apparently trowel the OBA coating onto.  It is ironic that the same company touts no OBAs in their canvases.  In their defense, I know that they are due to release versions without them soon, but they have been marketing the Chromata as superior because it doesn't have them for quite some time, while ignoring the issue with their papers.
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2009, 09:27:48 PM »
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All I Can Say is WOW!! Few Things.. HP will replace the paper Thats a Given if you have a problem getting it replaced John Call me..Mark what an explanation..Thats deep stuff..Nice  By the way Gang.. Red Revir & breathing Color do not make papers or Canvas they simply Have a mill make it and than have it converted to there spec and label it! I guess you could call them a manufacture to a degree but they DO Not make these papers Nor does HP, Canon, Epson, Moab or for the record any Private label company..

Hope everyone is doing well I have been not participating in the last few months .. But I am back

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
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