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Author Topic: Canon 17mm TSE - First Frame  (Read 15863 times)
Josh-H
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« on: June 12, 2009, 09:50:22 PM »
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Weather is lousy in Melbourne today - so havent had a chance to do more than squeeze off three frames before it started raining.

Here is the first frame from the new 17mm TSE - with almost maximum tilt and a good degree of shift.

Not a lot to report after only 3 frames with this new lens - other than its VERY VERY sharp.

This shot was taken at F7.1 on a tripod / mirror lockup Canon 1DS MK3.

Its not meant to be technically correct - its meant to show the effect of nearly maximum tilt and shift and enhance the gothic look of the church.

After 3 frames I can say that 17mm Tilt and shift is very nice to have as its clearly opening up a world of creative possibilites - but presents a real problem with dynamic range. In this shot the sky is blown in order not to crush the dark surface of the church.  Nothing I could do about it as it cant take filters - other than do a HDR image.

Hopefully more images to come if the weather improves.
[attachment=14499:_74X69732009.jpg]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 09:56:26 PM by Josh-H » Logged

francois
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 06:54:58 AM »
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Quote from: Josh-H
Weather is lousy in Melbourne today - so havent had a chance to do more than squeeze off three frames before it started raining.

Here is the first frame from the new 17mm TSE - with almost maximum tilt and a good degree of shift.

Not a lot to report after only 3 frames with this new lens - other than its VERY VERY sharp.

This shot was taken at F7.1 on a tripod / mirror lockup Canon 1DS MK3.

Its not meant to be technically correct - its meant to show the effect of nearly maximum tilt and shift and enhance the gothic look of the church.

After 3 frames I can say that 17mm Tilt and shift is very nice to have as its clearly opening up a world of creative possibilites - but presents a real problem with dynamic range. In this shot the sky is blown in order not to crush the dark surface of the church.  Nothing I could do about it as it cant take filters - other than do a HDR image.

Hopefully more images to come if the weather improves.
Josh,
Thanks for the info. I haven't been able to see a 17 TSE yet. It might well replace my old 24 TSE.
Did you try to pair it with the 1.4x extender (I don't know if the 17 TSE is compatible with extenders)?
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davewolfs
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 09:31:48 AM »
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Quote from: Josh-H
Weather is lousy in Melbourne today - so havent had a chance to do more than squeeze off three frames before it started raining.

Here is the first frame from the new 17mm TSE - with almost maximum tilt and a good degree of shift.

Not a lot to report after only 3 frames with this new lens - other than its VERY VERY sharp.

This shot was taken at F7.1 on a tripod / mirror lockup Canon 1DS MK3.

Its not meant to be technically correct - its meant to show the effect of nearly maximum tilt and shift and enhance the gothic look of the church.

After 3 frames I can say that 17mm Tilt and shift is very nice to have as its clearly opening up a world of creative possibilites - but presents a real problem with dynamic range. In this shot the sky is blown in order not to crush the dark surface of the church.  Nothing I could do about it as it cant take filters - other than do a HDR image.

Hopefully more images to come if the weather improves.
[attachment=14499:_74X69732009.jpg]

Perhaps it's time you start using digital blending
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slide
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2009, 06:21:45 PM »
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Quote from: Josh-H
Weather is lousy in Melbourne today - so havent had a chance to do more than squeeze off three frames before it started raining.

Here is the first frame from the new 17mm TSE - with almost maximum tilt and a good degree of shift.

Not a lot to report after only 3 frames with this new lens - other than its VERY VERY sharp.

This shot was taken at F7.1 on a tripod / mirror lockup Canon 1DS MK3.

Its not meant to be technically correct - its meant to show the effect of nearly maximum tilt and shift and enhance the gothic look of the church.

After 3 frames I can say that 17mm Tilt and shift is very nice to have as its clearly opening up a world of creative possibilites - but presents a real problem with dynamic range. In this shot the sky is blown in order not to crush the dark surface of the church.  Nothing I could do about it as it cant take filters - other than do a HDR image.

Hopefully more images to come if the weather improves.
[attachment=14499:_74X69732009.jpg]


I'm a newbie so please forgive this beginner question. I don't see what a tilt and shift lens, as illustrated by the OP's image. has over lens correction / transform / perspective corrections in CS. I've seen these lenses advertised as very high prices and wondered what, if I decided to spend the money, they'd do for me. Can you please elaborate? Thanks.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2009, 06:42:27 PM »
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Quote from: slide
I'm a newbie so please forgive this beginner question. I don't see what a tilt and shift lens, as illustrated by the OP's image. has over lens correction / transform / perspective corrections in CS. I've seen these lenses advertised as very high prices and wondered what, if I decided to spend the money, they'd do for me. Can you please elaborate? Thanks.


There are a few reasons to use T/S lenses over the PS controls you mention. First, after 4x5 film has been the industry standard for 60 years, to get professional level results from a DSLR requires careful attention to everything that degrades an image. Personally I think I get better compositions when I fully compose in the field using PC lenses, but that is after 30 years of making my living with a view camera. Composing fully in the field also alleviates (minimizes) cropping in PS eliminating pixel loss. In addition the kind of radical perspective correction that would have been required on the above image would involve radical cropping and stretching at the top of the image to achieve straight vertical lines in the building. The PS tools for this involve significant cropping and recreating of pixels (interpolation), all of which can significantly degrade the image.

Depending on your needs this degradation may matter. If you want professional results the above considerations may be important to you. If all you are doing is making 8x10's and posting on the web, they may be unimportant and PS tools may suite your needs just fine.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 06:43:09 PM by Kirk Gittings » Logged

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk Gittings
Architecture and Landscape Photography
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LIGHT+SPACE+STRUCTURE (blog)
Ray
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2009, 07:19:43 PM »
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Quote from: Josh-H
Here is the first frame from the new 17mm TSE - with almost maximum tilt and a good degree of shift.

Hi Josh,
You say 'a good degree of shift'. Does the 17mm TS-E have a red line on each side of the shift scale as a warning that image quality may be unacceptable when the lens is shifted beyond such marks?

Considering the larger image circle of a T&S lens, it would be quite remarkable in the lens were sharp at the edge of maximum shift. Have you taken any shots of a brick wall yet, at maximum shift?  
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Josh-H
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2009, 07:32:56 PM »
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Quote
Perhaps it's time you start using digital blending

Groan.. yes... not much choice with this lens as split ND filters (which I still love and use all the time) are simply not an option. I will have to brush up on HDR techniques to get fully up to speed with this lens as I predict dynamic range being an issue in a lot of cases with a lens this wide.


Quote from: Ray
Hi Josh,
You say 'a good degree of shift'. Does the 17mm TS-E have a red line on each side of the shift scale as a warning that image quality may be unacceptable when the lens is shifted beyond such marks?

Considering the larger image circle of a T&S lens, it would be quite remarkable in the lens were sharp at the edge of maximum shift. Have you taken any shots of a brick wall yet, at maximum shift?  

No - the 17mm TSE doesnt have red lines to indicate a maximum reccomended shift or tilt. It does have slightly elongated white lines just before maximum tilt and shift points - which I assume is a reccomendation for not going any further. Looking closely at 100% on screen I can see no real appreciable differences between the 3 frames I have shot from a quality perspective - all at different tilt/swing and shift.

I havent photographed a brick wall yet - I probably wont. I am really only interested in performance on real world images - that is actual frames I would photograph. The weather is better in Melbourne now - so heading out for a few hours to do a bit more experimentation and shoot some more frames. If I find a subject like a brick wall that is suitable I will shoot it and post it at a few different shift points. Hopefully I get a chance to post some more tonight.

I have not as yet tried the lens with a 1.4 TC - still coming to grips with it on its own.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 07:35:20 PM by Josh-H » Logged

stever
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2009, 08:57:30 PM »
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perspective correction in software is not so bad for minor corrections and PT lens does a useful job making straight lines straight (a particular problem for me with the 24-105).  but there is really serious messing about with the image for major corrections, and there is the additional problem of judging how much framing allowance is needed for the correction (it can be quite a lot) - if you don't allow enough you don't get the image so the tendency is to allow plenty resulting in not very many pixels in the corrected & cropped image.

Photomatix is pretty easy if you don't need more than +/- 2 and use exposure blending rather than full-on HDR, although with limited experience i find the choice of blending method to be pretty much trial and error.  If you need more, all the tools are there and it's used more widely than other HDR programs so there are more examples and advice available than other programs
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davewolfs
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2009, 09:31:42 PM »
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Blending doesn't have to be HDR.  Take a look at this: http://goodlight.us/writing/tutorials.html

Split ND's are great, but once you start getting into images that do not have even horizons, things become fairly difficult.
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AJSJones
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2009, 10:04:56 PM »
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Quote from: Ray
Hi Josh,
You say 'a good degree of shift'. Does the 17mm TS-E have a red line on each side of the shift scale as a warning that image quality may be unacceptable when the lens is shifted beyond such marks?

Considering the larger image circle of a T&S lens, it would be quite remarkable in the lens were sharp at the edge of maximum shift. Have you taken any shots of a brick wall yet, at maximum shift?  
Ray,
I don't have one but the answer is NO.  The image circle of the new ones is quite a bit larger (67mm) than the older series (~57mm?) so there's no need for the "red zone".  How sharp these are at the max shift is still something I'd be interested in, though
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Ray
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 12:21:31 AM »
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Quote from: AJSJones
Ray,
I don't have one but the answer is NO.  The image circle of the new ones is quite a bit larger (67mm) than the older series (~57mm?) so there's no need for the "red zone".  How sharp these are at the max shift is still something I'd be interested in, though

Me too! I bought my 24mm TS-E when my most recent camera was a 20D. No significant issue at maximum shift. However, when I later used that lens with a 5D for stitching purposes, using maximum shift, I was shocked at the extent of image degradation at the edges and in the corners. Those red lines were not there for decoration.

It would be interesting to see a comparison between the new 17mm TS-E and the Nikkor 14-24, using the Nikkor at 14mm and applying 'free transform and warp, or distort' in Photoshop to mimic as closely as possible the TS-E result used with shift.
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Josh-H
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 01:34:01 AM »
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I have shot some more frames today - and have some further comments and thoughts on this new lens - All of which are positive. The only real negative is there is some vignetting at F4 wide open; but its easily corrected in LR.

Rather than post a bunch of jpegs - which dont really tell you all that much I have uploaded a RAW file of this photo of my Kitchen (Keith posted an image of his kitchen - so what the hell)  

[attachment=14544:_74X70672009.jpg]

This photograph was taken with a Canon 1DS MK3 on a tripod with mirror lock-up 2 second self timer F11 1.3 Seconds (-1/3rd of a stop exposure) ISO 200 Highlight tone priority with 2 degrees of swing and 4.5 degrees of vertical shift. The focus point was the first oven mitt with plane of focus running along the length of the kitchen.

You can download the raw for yourself and have a look at the image quality unsharpened.
Download the RAW

Edit - Yes I know my sensor needs cleaning  

Edit - To Slides query above - TSE lens's also allow for infinite focus - which you cant do in Photoshop after the fact.

Edit - Another Sample

Maximum Shift and around 2.5 degrees of tilt. F11 1/160th Tripod Mirror Lock-Up 2 Second Self Timer - ISO200 HTP
[attachment=14545:_74X70222009.jpg]

If anyone wants the RAW of this image to inspect just let me know and I'll upload it as well.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 02:47:14 AM by Josh-H » Logged

Rob C
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2009, 03:40:43 AM »
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Whilst accepting that this is indeed a very useful lens, does it ever seem to be somewhat too extreme in its drawing?  In other words, might the wide angle effect not strike as being somewhat over the top?

Of course I accept the benefits, no question about that at all - just wondering about the "look" it gives, and if it might not be true that perspective (pleasing) still depends on finding the right distance from which to shoot.

Im trying very hard not to sound negative here, because that would be silly - the possibilities are great - just the usefulness in general terms. I feel there could be a danger of simply putting it on the camera and forcing everything to fall in line with its angle because - well, just because it can do the job. I know this temptation only too well from my own experiences with a 24mm on 35mm film!

Rob C
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Josh-H
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2009, 04:11:18 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C
Whilst accepting that this is indeed a very useful lens, does it ever seem to be somewhat too extreme in its drawing?  In other words, might the wide angle effect not strike as being somewhat over the top?

Of course I accept the benefits, no question about that at all - just wondering about the "look" it gives, and if it might not be true that perspective (pleasing) still depends on finding the right distance from which to shoot.

Im trying very hard not to sound negative here, because that would be silly - the possibilities are great - just the usefulness in general terms. I feel there could be a danger of simply putting it on the camera and forcing everything to fall in line with its angle because - well, just because it can do the job. I know this temptation only too well from my own experiences with a 24mm on 35mm film!

Rob C

Well... the above examples are meant to be somewhat extreme - that is they are at the limits of what the lens 'can' achieve. The old adage of just because you can doesn't mean you should is very true and for real world images less is often more when it comes to perspective correction.

The trick as you note is finding a balance between the best place to shoot from and the right amount of 'correction'.

Nevertheless the above samples illustrate what is possible.
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2009, 07:17:14 AM »
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Quote from: Josh-H
I have shot some more frames today - and have some further comments and thoughts on this new lens - All of which are positive. The only real negative is there is some vignetting at F4 wide open; but its easily corrected in LR.

Rather than post a bunch of jpegs - which dont really tell you all that much I have uploaded a RAW file of this photo of my Kitchen (Keith posted an image of his kitchen - so what the hell)  

[attachment=14544:_74X70672009.jpg]

This photograph was taken with a Canon 1DS MK3 on a tripod with mirror lock-up 2 second self timer F11 1.3 Seconds (-1/3rd of a stop exposure) ISO 200 Highlight tone priority with 2 degrees of swing and 4.5 degrees of vertical shift. The focus point was the first oven mitt with plane of focus running along the length of the kitchen.

You can download the raw for yourself and have a look at the image quality unsharpened.
Download the RAW

Edit - Yes I know my sensor needs cleaning  

Edit - To Slides query above - TSE lens's also allow for infinite focus - which you cant do in Photoshop after the fact.

Edit - Another Sample

Maximum Shift and around 2.5 degrees of tilt. F11 1/160th Tripod Mirror Lock-Up 2 Second Self Timer - ISO200 HTP
[attachment=14545:_74X70222009.jpg]

If anyone wants the RAW of this image to inspect just let me know and I'll upload it as well.


Thanks so much for posting the raw file.  This looks to be a very sweet lens and it is finally a TS lens wide enough for my uses.  I really need to add one of these to my kit!
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davewolfs
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2009, 10:17:17 AM »
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These are all very nice.  If you get a chance, I'd like to see some with a 1.4 extender
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Luis Argerich
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2009, 10:46:18 AM »
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After seeing this and other examples from the 17TS I think the interior shots look awesome and the lens will probably become a standard for interior architecture shots.
The exterior shots are so extreme that they look too weird, as somebody said I think the brain expects some degree of distortion and when it can't find anything it looks weird. The top of the exterior images seems bigger than the bottoms (I know its not real).

I found the tests really valuable so I'm very thankful.

Luigi
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timolive
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2009, 02:29:24 PM »
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Josh, thanks for posting these tests.  In the kitchen shot, I noticed that the reflection in the glass (window blinds) of the cupboard seems sharper than both the knob on the oven (on the left) and the items on the shelf (to the right).  I'm viewing the raw image in both LR 2 and DPP 3.6.1, using light sharpening.  DPP shows better color but the detail is better in LR.  

It appears the focus of this lens might be off and would benefit from an in-camera focus calibration.  I'd like to see the results if you try it.  

I'd also like to check out the raw of the second image if you have time.

Many thanks,

Tim Olive
Atlanta
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 02:38:48 PM by timolive » Logged
Josh-H
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2009, 07:14:46 PM »
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Quote from: timolive
Josh, thanks for posting these tests.  In the kitchen shot, I noticed that the reflection in the glass (window blinds) of the cupboard seems sharper than both the knob on the oven (on the left) and the items on the shelf (to the right).  I'm viewing the raw image in both LR 2 and DPP 3.6.1, using light sharpening.  DPP shows better color but the detail is better in LR.  

It appears the focus of this lens might be off and would benefit from an in-camera focus calibration.  I'd like to see the results if you try it.  

I'd also like to check out the raw of the second image if you have time.

Many thanks,

Tim Olive
Atlanta

This is a manual focus lens only - so not sure what using the cameras internal focus calibration would acheive. Its most likely I wasnt critical enough when focusing as the reason for the reflection being or appearing sharper. I didnt use live view for focus - I just did it by eye through the viewfinder.

Will upload the other raw tonight if I get time.

Just a general comment - the outdoor shots posted above are extreme examples of what can be achieved as I wanted to test it myself and it seemed to be that people wanted to see shots with maximum tilt and shift.

Both of the above outdoor shots could easily be done with less shift and tilt to produce a more natural looking result.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:59:52 AM by Josh-H » Logged

Pedro Kok
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2009, 11:06:03 PM »
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I think I'll stir up some heat here, but I'd like to make it clear that it's not towards the original poster, nor anyone other particular person. It's just a general observation.
 
My take on this lens is that it'll generate a legion of lazy photographers. When up against a tall building, most will just frame, shift up and move on with life, forgetting about any possible connection or exploratory research between photographer, camera and the said building. From the samples I've soon so far, which are far too few to draw any conclusion, this has been recurring. Camera placement, especially camera height, plays an enormous role in the outcome. It can be forgotten or overlooked by this frame-it-all lens. With 4x5, you have to be damn sure that you've got the desired picture, and that means searching for the best camera placement. On the other hand, with a DSLR and a very wide-angle shift lens it's easy to get carried away. It already happens with the current 24mm TS-E, and will get worse with the newcomer.
 
I know the 17mm TS-E has its applications; as a 4x5 architectural shooter, my 75mm lens (19mm equiv.) gets much love. But it also taught me to use it sparingly, only when the situation demands it. I much prefer to use it with 6x9 roll film; or better yet, a 150mm lens on 4x5. It took me a while to move away from wide-angle lenses to more normal focal lengths (~38mm equiv.) when shooting architecture, and it's been a pleasure to do so. But that, of course, is personal preference.

That said: Canon, now it's time for a 35mm TS-E.

Cheers,
Pedro
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