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Author Topic: Sigma SD10  (Read 25937 times)
DaShiv
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« on: February 07, 2004, 12:37:09 AM »
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Actually on the DPR review, the SD9 showed more resolution than the D60, so the SD10 will probably will enlarge better than the DRebel's images if using a good resizing program/action (such as Genuine Fractals). And it gives the benefits of smaller file sizes as well. My main beef again is Canon glass vs Sigma glass, plus also there are some noise and ISO issues with the Foveon sensors, whereas Canon's CMOS sensor has been simply wonderful to me.

That said I think people who like what the Foveon chip has to offer should certainly try the SD9/10 out, just like those interested in a line of DSLR-optimized lenses should certainly feel free to look into the Olympus E-1. Choices are good for everyone! But I'm happy with the Canon system myself, thank you very much.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2004, 12:01:18 AM »
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I don't like the algorithms that have to guess during their interpolation. Yellowy blotchiness in skin & hair, purplely blotchiness on grey walls, structures. Pretty poor software Mr Bayer! Huh? It's not a 6MP camera it's 2 MP except for green sensor, when it's 4MP and the photosites are not even adjacent. Every one always misses this fact.


 
Yep. Purple and yellow blotchy horror everywhere.

Ian, you need a bit of a reality check regarding the abilities of Bayer-pattern sensors and the cameras that use them.
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janus
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2004, 12:16:21 AM »
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With all due respect, I wish you were right:

Being a Ph.D.'d scientist myself (theoretical mathematics, also known as number theory), involved with the study of number in such diverse fields as chemistry, astronomy, biology, etc., I can only say that there are still many scientists out there that hold theories to be truths, and who are very closeminded when faced with challenging new ideas. Not every scientist accepts new insights at the same rate. Some "convert" more easily than others. Science is not as absolute as some think it is.

Technology is far more absolute in that sense than science. But I don't udnerstand why you take to me to task on comparing the SD10 with the 1Ds. May be the previous responder did that. I was only reacting to Michael's statement, which i found to be illogical.

But I am confident if a new Sigma SD20 came out with a 3-layer 5MP sensor plus a resolution of the noise issue at higher ISOs, then it would handily beat any 35mm type DSLR currently on the market.
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janus
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2004, 11:00:04 AM »
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You might even claim that the SD10 can produce marginally better quality images than either the 6MP 300D or 10D, but I think that will depend on the quality of the attached lens.

.....

It's not clear that the SD10 can produce better quality images than the 300D, but if it can and these differences are clearly noticeable on large prints using a wide range of lenses, then that would be something to get excited about.
A friend of mine has the D Rebel (300D) and he has shown his images to me on a CD. They look pale compared to the SD10 in terms of color, still have that typical digital flat look, and the overall contrast was generally harsher than the SD10's. The colors looked a little "too happy" as well. They were taken by the Rebel's kit lens, but I have a kit lens with my SD10 as well, which I think performs better. The SD10's images generally look more 3D-ish, more film like and the software ofers great control over the RAW data very generous latitude parameters.

The argument that Canon has more lenses than Sigma is kind of silly, because do you know of any photographer who owns them all? How many do you really need? It depends on what type of stuff you shoot. For some people one lens may be enough, for others just a few, etc.

The SD10's great advantage is that I generally do not need blown out highlights, and that was a crucial deciding factor for me, Nothing could be worse, in my opinion, than blown out highlights. That's data lost forever.
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janus
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2004, 09:07:13 PM »
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Well, I used to shoot that rather dense Velvia before, and I must say the DR of the Sigma SD10 is a big step in the right direction. The Sigma SD10 is not as saturrated as the SD9 is (one of the reaons I didn't buy it, despite much lower price).

Why not post this question on dpreview's sigma forum?
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Ray
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2004, 08:21:33 PM »
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Janus,
The SD10 does have stunning image quality as a 3 megapixel camera, and any D30 owner would be seriously tempted to switch to Sigma, if the D60/10D/300D/1Ds etc. didn't exist.

But you must be aware that any astute buyer will be carefully weighing the pros and cons. The bottom line is, the 300D/Rebel has similar performance but with a great deal more options in terms of lens quality.
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Brett DiMichele
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 11:20:04 PM »
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Sigma Sigma bla bla bla..

Can the Sigma do action photography like this?



Wait... That was taken with a Sigma.. My bad  Cheesy
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Ray
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 12:33:22 AM »
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Janus,
I don't find the dpreview forums particularly stimulating. A brief squiz of the SD10 forum indicates most posters are terribly concerned about their lens choices. There's little that addresses in depth the serious flaws of the SD10, ie. inaccurate color above ISO 400 and hopless performance at long exposures. What we get is a head-in-the-sand reaction to these deficiencies in the form of exaggerated anecdotal reports of superior color rendition at low ISO's (compared with the 10D).

The Foveon concept is brilliant and it's a great shame that more resources are not being pumped into R&D. A true 10MP full frame Foveon sensor would beat the pants off the 1Ds. It would be equivalent to a 20MP Bayer type sensor. Perhaps the ideal full frame DSLR. I hope they succeed.
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janus
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2004, 01:08:16 PM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']Sigma's latest lens offering is now available:


http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/news/24_60f28_exdg.html

see also

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0405/04051202sigma2460.asp[/font]
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janus
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2004, 10:51:50 PM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']Jonathan, that was a hit below the belt.

I certainly did not write that review. It wasn't that good, the samples were unconvincing.

It is a good example that a bad review is possible if the reviewer doesn't know what the #+@*$ he is doing.

For example, I didn't take these photos, someone ele did:

http://www.pbase.com/champa/along_the_stre...exicans_riviera

Tell me, is this a good camera, or what?[/font]
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janus
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2004, 07:35:28 AM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks Lin, exactly my point all along.[/font]
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janus
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2004, 09:13:56 PM »
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A report in the British magazine Total Digital Photography recently stated, according to a post on the Sigma SD10 forum:

The Feb 2004 issue has a good article on the photographer Paul Harcourt Davis (his latest book on macro photography: Small Things Big). He uses a Nikon D100 and Sigma SD10 and some sophisticated glass.

Quote from article; "... and the Sigma SD9 and SD10 beat all the six megapixel cameras I have seen and used hands down".
 
(link is here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums....477832)

------

All I can say: that is exactly my experience as well. Even the so-called kit lenses this camera came with perform very well. Anyone who thinks this is just a 3MP camera doesn't get the point. I have a Canon G3 for casual family photos with 4MP whose image quality looks very pale compared to what I get from the Sigma SD10. Pixel quality is what coutns, not just pixel count. I enlarge these images to 48MB and submit them to an agency. No problem, I have opriutned 16x20 and looks fantastically sharp!

The lens I use the most at present is one of the highest rated lenses in the world: the Sigma 50mm Macro (2.Cool EX.

This camera is perfect for outdoor shooting in daylight at ISO100, etc. You get my drift....like using slow speed slide film and have a fixed lens rangefinder like a Fuji 69 or Makina 67 or 903-SWC. WIll of course get more lenses.

For fine art and studio work I think this camera is a great tool, but not for sports, low light, fast moving objects, etc.

It is a niche camera, but I think as such is does extremely well. Very good for making great b/w prints. The software is very good (although colro wheel should eb a color sldier as in FotoStation 2.0 Pro version).

I think Michael may eventually review it and give a thumbs up just like he just did with the Contax N digital review.

I have psoted a gallery of images at:

http://www.pbase.com/janus/sigma_sd10&page=all

and panoramics at:

http://www.pbase.com/janus/panoramas_using_a_sigma_sd10

Let me know what YOU think.
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Erik M
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2004, 12:08:14 PM »
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Actually, there are number of contributors (Tammons, for one) at dprewview.com in the Sigma forum who not only own either an SD9 or SD10 but also own a Fuji S2, Nikon D100, Rebel 300D, and Canon 10D. The fact that owners of those others cameras also purchased a Foveon based system says something. I know that the owner of the 10D has it for its ISO performance but perfers the SD9 and SD10 in good light. I'm not an advocate of having dual systems. So if you only want one system, Nikon or Canon may be the one for you. But there is a difference between the prints produced by Foveon vs. Bayer cameras. One is *not* superior to the other. It's more of a personal preference.
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Ray
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2004, 08:56:23 PM »
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So the average of 2MP and 4MP is 3MP. The Foveon is a 3MP camera and the quality is roughly equal to the Bayer type 6MP (perhaps 6.5MP). We haven't missed this fact.  Cheesy
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Ray
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2004, 02:00:52 AM »
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But I don't udnerstand why you take to me to task on comparing the SD10 with the 1Ds.
Well, I don't think you've made such claims and I, myself, would never have thought of making such a comparison, but I think such a comparison is legitimate as long as the limits and nature of the comparison are made very clear.

The pixel pitch of the SD9/10 is actually bigger than that of the 1Ds (9.12 micron as opposed to 8.8 micron), but I believe if you were to shoot the moon (for example, or a distant bird on a twig) with both cameras, using a Sigma 800mm F5.6 prime, the SD10 would produce the sharper image.

In this sense, for this very narrow purpose, the SD10 could be a better choice of camera than the much more expensive 1Ds.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2004, 10:50:15 AM »
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This is a silly debate. Sigma and Foveon have *never* positioned their camera or the F7 chip as a competitor to *any* 10+MP imaging device, Bayer or otherwise.
Sigma and Foveon have not, but ALF did.
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I have never heard of any Bayer sensored DSLR, whether it be the Canon EOS 1Ds or the Kodak 14N being compared to the resolution of a medium format film camera but I have with the Sigma SD9:
ALF is either surprisingly ignorant, or intentionally deceptive. In either case, his claims are patently ludicrous.
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Ray
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2004, 06:24:20 PM »
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But this I can tell you about latitude: I accidentally totally overexposed an image, and even in SPP it showed up nearly all washed out. Yet, with the software controls I was able to almost perfectly restore the image back to normal.
The adjustments available in SPP are impressive, but there are similar adjustments available in Photoshop CS raw converter which I use, and in the Shadow/Highlight control, after conversion.

It certainly makes sense that the SD10 should have a higher dynamic range than other Bayer type DSLRs because the photodetectors are large (9.12 micron) and there are three of them for each pixel, but it's impossible to tell from the SPP software.

An indication of DR would be how the camera behaves in relation to the type of film you used to use before going digital. Most professionals seem to use slide film with a DR of about 6 stops which is about the same as the DR of the Canon DSLRs. I used mostly colour negative film which has a DR of around 8 stops and therefore the DR limitations of the D60 were painfully obvious. It required a bit of getting used to.
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janus
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2004, 06:36:47 AM »
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Ray wrote: But you must be aware that any astute buyer will be carefully weighing the pros and cons. The bottom line is, the 300D/Rebel has similar performance but with a great deal more options in terms of lens quality.

Ooh, wait a moment. I almost made a comment abotu the 300D/Kiss/Rebel-D yesterday, but I didn't, as I didn't want to single out any camera. But since you brought it up, I have to respond now. A friend of mine has one, and he has shared his full res pictures with me, and it does NOT, I repeat does not, compare favorably to the SD10. The colors are not quite right with that Canon (greens are too Velvia like), and the images have that typical flat digital look.

Overall: very Dissimilar performance, not similar.
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janus
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2004, 06:54:53 PM »
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to drhiii:

Check your link: I cannot go to your webpages.


And anyone who wants to see my updated SD10 pages:

http://www.pbase.com/janus/sigma_sd10
http://www.pbase.com/janus/sigma_sd10_part_ii
http://www.pbase.com/janus/sigma_sd10_real..._fake_panoramas

Let's hit the 10,000 mark on how many people have read this SD10 forum! We are now well at over 9000! Is this a record for Luminous or what?

-janus
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Erik M
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2004, 12:07:30 PM »
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Ray,

You simply have to accept that some photographers prefer a different feature set and image look than you do. Just as some Hassy owners prefer a square and not the additional weight of an RZ or RB rotating back. A difference is not a deficiency.
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