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Author Topic: WhitePoint/BlackPoint in C1  (Read 5726 times)
kingdex
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« on: June 17, 2009, 09:00:44 PM »
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At the suggestion of Michael's tutorial on CaptureOne/LightRoom workflow I've decided to try and decode in C1 setting white bal and B&W points prior to exporting to LR. I need to clear up a procedural question: I'm accustomed to setting W&B points by opt-sliding exposure for WP & opt-sliding shadows for BP in Adobe apps. I've been told by another user (anon) that W&B points are set in C1 by using the levels tool and adjusting the histogram with the bottom sliders of the levels tool as one might use levels in Photoshop. Further told me NOT to adjust in C1 by using the exposure slider. Since opt-sliding does not work in C1 I guess what I'm really seeking is the correct way to adjust white & black points in C1.

Hopefully I'm in the correct section of this forum. Can anyone help clear this up for me?

Regards,
kingdex
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James R
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 12:13:21 AM »
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Quote from: kingdex
At the suggestion of Michael's tutorial on CaptureOne/LightRoom workflow I've decided to try and decode in C1 setting white bal and B&W points prior to exporting to LR. I need to clear up a procedural question: I'm accustomed to setting W&B points by opt-sliding exposure for WP & opt-sliding shadows for BP in Adobe apps. I've been told by another user (anon) that W&B points are set in C1 by using the levels tool and adjusting the histogram with the bottom sliders of the levels tool as one might use levels in Photoshop. Further told me NOT to adjust in C1 by using the exposure slider. Since opt-sliding does not work in C1 I guess what I'm really seeking is the correct way to adjust white & black points in C1.

Hopefully I'm in the correct section of this forum. Can anyone help clear this up for me?

Regards,
kingdex


You can set W&B points using Levels' eyedroppers.  You select the highlight and shadow values using the appropriate eyedropper.  IMO, C1's method is better than LR's.  I found setting the black point too much of a guess in LR and can easily over do it.  

BTW, you use C1's exposure slider just like you would LR's, to increase or decrease exposure.  Exposure is the first thing I look at and adjust if needed.  I next use a receipe to reduce the Levels upper set to 4 and 250.  

When you buy C1 Pro, you get access to Phase One's Forum, where you can ask questions and keep up with any release issues.  C1 has a manual that you can download.  It's not great, but it helps.

Good luck.
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olaf
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 01:39:12 AM »
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Hi
You can also try the top B&W sliders in the histogram control. Turn the clipping warning sign on and for fine tuning adjust each slider with the mouse wheel or with the arrow keys. Very precise.
I'm not sure what the respective benefits of top vs bottom slider adjustment may be but I picked this hint up at a recent Phase seminar in London and it seems to work very well.
Hope this is helpful. Regards

Olaf


Quote from: kingdex
At the suggestion of Michael's tutorial on CaptureOne/LightRoom workflow I've decided to try and decode in C1 setting white bal and B&W points prior to exporting to LR. I need to clear up a procedural question: I'm accustomed to setting W&B points by opt-sliding exposure for WP & opt-sliding shadows for BP in Adobe apps. I've been told by another user (anon) that W&B points are set in C1 by using the levels tool and adjusting the histogram with the bottom sliders of the levels tool as one might use levels in Photoshop. Further told me NOT to adjust in C1 by using the exposure slider. Since opt-sliding does not work in C1 I guess what I'm really seeking is the correct way to adjust white & black points in C1.

Hopefully I'm in the correct section of this forum. Can anyone help clear this up for me?

Regards,
kingdex
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James R
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 01:51:19 AM »
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Quote from: olaf
Hi
You can also try the top B&W sliders in the histogram control. Turn the clipping warning sign on and for fine tuning adjust each slider with the mouse wheel or with the arrow keys. Very precise.
I'm not sure what the respective benefits of top vs bottom slider adjustment may be but I picked this hint up at a recent Phase seminar in London and it seems to work very well.
Hope this is helpful. Regards

Olaf

C1 suggest setting the top at 3 or 4 and 245 to 250.  Setting these too narrowly can give an unrealistic look.  I wish they had seminars in California, it would have shortened up my learning curve.
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kingdex
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 10:19:32 AM »
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Thanks for the ongoing feedback. I kinda wish Michael had explained his specific approach to W&B point in his C1/LR workflow. Maybe he'll stumble on this thread and reply [;.)

The approach I've used so far has been to use the bottom sliders of the levels control. With clip warning on, I slide the highlight slider until I barely begin to clip highlights then back off till clip warning disappears. I then do the same with the blacks slider to see just slight black clipping. I do not mess with the gamma (mid-tone) slider nor do I move either of the sliders that appear above the levels control. I've been waiting to adjust exposure after I've imported to LR. So far, when I've used the black and white eyedroppers more often than not they seem to over-correct. Don't know exactly how they actually sample the data.

Nonetheless, the setting of W&B points should be pretty straight forward. The user manual I downloaded from PhaseOne doesn't get very specific either.

Comments?

kingdex
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James R
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 12:14:47 PM »
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Quote from: kingdex
Thanks for the ongoing feedback. I kinda wish Michael had explained his specific approach to W&B point in his C1/LR workflow. Maybe he'll stumble on this thread and reply [;.)

The approach I've used so far has been to use the bottom sliders of the levels control. With clip warning on, I slide the highlight slider until I barely begin to clip highlights then back off till clip warning disappears. I then do the same with the blacks slider to see just slight black clipping. I do not mess with the gamma (mid-tone) slider nor do I move either of the sliders that appear above the levels control. I've been waiting to adjust exposure after I've imported to LR. So far, when I've used the black and white eyedroppers more often than not they seem to over-correct. Don't know exactly how they actually sample the data.

Nonetheless, the setting of W&B points should be pretty straight forward. The user manual I downloaded from PhaseOne doesn't get very specific either.

Comments?

kingdex

IMO, the eyedroppers just give me a starting point.  They can over correct, especially if you don't pick the proper shadow or highlight.  I find the High Dynamic Range sliders to very useful and use them after adjusting exposure and WB.  I'm surprised you don't play with them.  

It would interesting to see a step-by-step workflow of other photographers using C1.
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kingdex
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 03:55:03 PM »
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I find the High Dynamic Range sliders to very useful and use them after adjusting exposure and WB.  I'm surprised you don't play with them.  

It would interesting to see a step-by-step workflow of other photographers using C1.

It's my understanding that the HDR sliders are infrequently used; reserved mostly for  difficult images with very challenging contrast issues. I've not had any burning reason to experiment with them at this point.

Anyway, my current workflow is pretty much as follows. (Bear in mind that at this point I only really use C1 to decode RAW and set WB & B&W points. I then export to LR for all the rest):

1. I set WB (I have no confusion about how to do that).
2. Then I work on W&B points. I bring in the bottom sliders underneath the levels histogram to the point where there is only a very slight hint of clipping (clip warning is on).
3. As with levels adjustments in Adobe apps., I rarely have need to adjust the output sliders - the ones on top in C1, the ones on bottom of Adobe Apps. But, since PhaseOne reportedly uses a different algorithm for it's output level adjustments (said to minimize harsh, highlight transitions) I dutifully set my outputs a bit inward as they suggest - about 4 and 248-250.
4. I don't adjust exposure or make any other such adjustments in C1.
5. I export the file (which becomes a tiff) to LR and refine from there.

I guess my main reason for starting this thread was to determine if anyone - especially Michael - uses the exposure slider in C1 to adjust the high end of the histogram (WP) before going to LR for further processing.

Regards,
kingdex

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Jack Varney
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 09:54:56 PM »
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The HDR sliders are very useful. They perform in a similar manner as Lightroom's highlight recovery and fill light sliders.
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Jack Varney
kingdex
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 10:43:06 AM »
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Quote from: Beachconnection
The HDR sliders are very useful. They perform in a similar manner as Lightroom's highlight recovery and fill light sliders.

Would not have known that from available info. Great Tip!

Thanks,
kd
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 11:18:07 AM »
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I found that the HDR sliders in C1 affect too much of the tonal range, compared to ACR/LR's controls. In anything but small amounts they had a negative impact on most images I tried them with.
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Snook
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 05:27:45 PM »
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Quote from: James R
C1 suggest setting the top at 3 or 4 and 245 to 250.  Setting these too narrowly can give an unrealistic look.  I wish they had seminars in California, it would have shortened up my learning curve.

I agree. 245 is white with Information, 250 is not..
Snook
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Snook
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 05:29:44 PM »
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Quote from: kingdex
It's my understanding that the HDR sliders are infrequently used; reserved mostly for  difficult images with very challenging contrast issues. I've not had any burning reason to experiment with them at this point.

Anyway, my current workflow is pretty much as follows. (Bear in mind that at this point I only really use C1 to decode RAW and set WB & B&W points. I then export to LR for all the rest):

1. I set WB (I have no confusion about how to do that).
2. Then I work on W&B points. I bring in the bottom sliders underneath the levels histogram to the point where there is only a very slight hint of clipping (clip warning is on).
3. As with levels adjustments in Adobe apps., I rarely have need to adjust the output sliders - the ones on top in C1, the ones on bottom of Adobe Apps. But, since PhaseOne reportedly uses a different algorithm for it's output level adjustments (said to minimize harsh, highlight transitions) I dutifully set my outputs a bit inward as they suggest - about 4 and 248-250.
4. I don't adjust exposure or make any other such adjustments in C1.
5. I export the file (which becomes a tiff) to LR and refine from there.

I guess my main reason for starting this thread was to determine if anyone - especially Michael - uses the exposure slider in C1 to adjust the high end of the histogram (WP) before going to LR for further processing.

Regards,
kingdex

I would most defiently use the exposure settings in C-1 rather than ANY other program. After that is what it is best at. converting RAW files!!
Snook
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