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Author Topic: Intelligent move to Medium Format System  (Read 11255 times)
Jack Flesher
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 07:19:13 PM »
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Quote from: MichaelAlanBielat
...The weight is not because of having leaf shutters. The HC/HCD lenses use metal, not plastic, wherever possible and don't skimp out on their optics.

The Mamiya Zooms, longer focals and D primes are metal bodies too -- only the original 45, 55 and 80 AF's had composite bodies. And I'll stack my lenses -- especially the newer D lenses -- next to anything from Hassy on optical quality too...  For whatever reason you want to choose, the equivalent Hassy H focal lengths are generally both larger and heavier than the comparable Mamiya focal.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 05:06:20 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

DavidStephen
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 09:22:53 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
As far as I see what you are up to... why not buy a used camera in mint condition and a refurbished back? The Contax' are really great cameras with nice lenses and you'll find everything you need within short time. Or a Mamiya... or any MF camera you like and that is an "open" platform.
Take a refurbished Phase, Sinar or Leaf back ... done.


Although I'm reluctant to take on other peoples practices, via used gear, this might make sense.

The real test is going to be hands on experience, exploring what MF can do.  

I've read all sorts of reviews and comments, as well as looked at hundreds, even thousands of images.  It comes down to practice - websites, small flash files, subjective, sometime nontechnical appraisals are  helpful, but are no substitute for doing the work myself.

I need a camera for a few days to know if the move is right for what I want to achieve.  

Perhaps rental?

Hummm?
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MichaelAlanBielat
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 11:04:05 AM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
The Mamiya Zooms, longer focals and D primes are metal bodies too -- only the original 45, 55 and 80 AF's had composite bodies. And I'll stack my lenses -- especially the newer D lenses -- next to anything from Hassy on optical quality too...  For whatever reason you want to choose, the equivalent Hassy H focal lengths are generally both larger and heavier than the comparable Mamiya focal.

I wasn't dogging any other system. I was just stating some facts about Hasselblad lenses so there is no need to get all defensive about your Mamiyas.  

As far as weight differences there isn't much between the Hassy and Mamiya D ones... If you can physically feel the difference of a couple ounces or a pound then WOW! That is quite the skill you have yourself there.

For example:
Mamiya 28mm D = 1.9 lbs // Hasselblad 28mm 1.87 lbs.
Mamiya 120mm D lens which is manual focus (says their website) = 1.8lbs // Hasselblad AF 120mm lens 3.1lbs
Mamiya 75-150mm D = 2.5lbs // Hasselblad 150mm = 2.13lbs

Hasselblad's 35-90mm aspherical lens is only 3.1lbs as well.

The heaviest lens in the arsenal is their 300mm which is 4.7lbs

The H3DII-31 weighs in at around  5 lbs as a complete camera (with battery, cf card and 80mm lens) where the Mamiya body only, no battery is stated on their site as being 3.lbs right there.

If the difference of a pound or two is the deal breaker for someone l then I think they should get a gym membership before getting their next piece of gear.
 
Optical quality is one thing if you want to start at charts all day. All in all, it's the final result that counts.

For example, have fun correcting your lens distortion, APO, moire and vignetting on your own while I have Phocus take care of it all for me with the click of a check box.

So how good is that optical quality now?Huh They also have totally different designs with the central leaf shutter compared to Mamiya's focal plane shutter (i.e. their 645AFD III).
That difference of 1/125" on the Mamiya sync speed compared to Hassy's 1/800" sync speed can be a deal breaker for many...

Long story short, we are not comparing apples to apples. A Holga weighs ounces but I wouldn't compare it to a digital camera in quality, specs, features or lens optics... As you can see my friend, there is a lot more to camera's then just its weight.

As I mentioned before, I was just stating the facts about the Hasselblad lenses and their weight is NOT JUST because of central shutters.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 12:55:13 PM »
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Quote from: DavidStephen
I need a camera for a few days to know if the move is right for what I want to achieve.
Perhaps rental?
yes. Probably you get back the charge of the rental if you decide to buy.
... well it depends on where you are located... I did "rent" without any option to buy or not to buy without any charge for some days.
But that was Phase One directly, not a dealer of Phase One...

In any case: as you are not running a studio or work for paying clients and therefore don't need the gear backed up and 24/7 service I'd definitely go for a refurbished back. Refurbished Phase backs come with 1 year warranty, I'd assume it's the same with the other companies.
Sinar recently droped prices.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 04:18:53 PM »
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Quote from: DavidStephen
I need a camera for a few days to know if the move is right for what I want to achieve.  

Perhaps rental? Hummm?
If you are not and established professional photographer, it might be difficult to get a retailer to lend you a demo unit.

Where are you?

You could offer your services as an assistant to someone on the forum local to you... or are you local to a retailer on the forum?
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 05:58:48 PM »
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Quote from: MichaelAlanBielat
I wasn't dogging any other system. I was just stating some facts about Hasselblad lenses so there is no need to get all defensive about your Mamiyas.  

As far as weight differences there isn't much between the Hassy and Mamiya D ones... If you can physically feel the difference of a couple ounces or a pound then WOW! That is quite the skill you have yourself there.

For example:
Mamiya 28mm D = 1.9 lbs // Hasselblad 28mm 1.87 lbs.
Mamiya 120mm D lens which is manual focus (says their website) = 1.8lbs // Hasselblad AF 120mm lens 3.1lbs
Mamiya 75-150mm D = 2.5lbs // Hasselblad 150mm = 2.13lbs

[...]

Well while we are stating facts let's be complete.

Hassy 150mm 2.2 lbs   -  Mamiya 150mmD 1.7 lbs
Hassy 120mm 3.1 lbs   -  Mamiya 120mmD 1.8 lbs
Hassy 80mm  1.0 lbs    -  Mamiya 80mmD 0.7 lbs
Hassy 50mm  2.1 lbs    -  Mamiya 45mmD 1.1 lbs (55mm @ 1.0 lbs)
Hassy 35mm  2.2 lbs    -  Mamiya 35mm 1.1 lbs
Hassy 55-110  3.6 lbs  -  Mamiya 75-150mmD 2.5 lbs

In addition the Hassy mid-zoom, 35mm, 50mm, and 120mm are all significantly longer/larger than the Mamiya equivalent which moves the weight forward and off-balance of your hand (the 28, 80, 150 are all similar lengths).

Lens design is multi-faceted. Focal length, number of elements, maximum aperture, lens circle, and construction material size, and whether you include a shutter all contribute to the size and weight. Between Hassy and Mamiya one of the most significant differences in the size/weight is due to the inclusion of the shutter and it's impact on the design of the lens which is most notable on the 35 and 50mm lens where including the shutter greatly impacts the location of the rear elements of the lens which are preferably placed very close to the mirror box to avoid needing a higher power retro-focus element.
 
Quote from: MichaelAlanBielat
have fun correcting your lens distortion, APO, moire and vignetting on your own while I have Phocus take care of it all for me with the click of a check box.

Did a Hasselblad sales guy tell you that Hasselblad has lens corrections and Capture One doesn't?

In fact Capture One includes lens correction (distortion, APO, vignetting, purple fringing etc) for the Mamiya/Phase lens line, Hasselblad HC and Hasselblad classic lenses, as well as several Contax lenses as well as customizing the corrections for generic lenses (e.g. for dSLRs). The anti-purple fringing has won us many Leica users since certain lens/M8 combinations result in a lot of purple fringing. The only difference is that in Phocus you click a box, in Capture One you select your lens from a small pull-down. Once selected you can copy-paste that adjustment to some or all of the images in the folder in literally a few seconds.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
If you are not and established professional photographer, it might be difficult to get a retailer to lend you a demo unit.

Where are you?

You could offer your services as an assistant to someone on the forum local to you... or are you local to a retailer on the forum?

We are located close by and would be happy to have you come to our studio with a model or still lives etc to test the system in a real-world situation for free. After if you're pleased with what you see we can rent you the system for a longer period and credit 100% of the rental to your purchase if you end up buying.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 08:58:17 PM »
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Quote from: Plekto
If you are doing personal/art type work and not anything commercial or that requires speed and large numbers of shots, then you might also consider ignoring the whole thing and just straight to large format.  

Enormous difference.  Words can't really describe how much quality you can get for the money versus MF digital if you are willing to put up with the slower pace and bigger equipment.  A typical piece of 4x5  negative film costs... well, you'd need thousands and thousands of shots to get to the price of a good DB.

For reasonnably static subjects, stitching is still cheaper than 4x5 with better quality. I find it to be also faster all things considered.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
MichaelAlanBielat
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 09:59:28 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Well while we are stating facts let's be complete.

Hassy 150mm 2.2 lbs   -  Mamiya 150mmD 1.7 lbs
Hassy 120mm 3.1 lbs   -  Mamiya 120mmD 1.8 lbs
Hassy 80mm  1.0 lbs    -  Mamiya 80mmD 0.7 lbs
Hassy 50mm  2.1 lbs    -  Mamiya 45mmD 1.1 lbs (55mm @ 1.0 lbs)
Hassy 35mm  2.2 lbs    -  Mamiya 35mm 1.1 lbs
Hassy 55-110  3.6 lbs  -  Mamiya 75-150mmD 2.5 lbs

In addition the Hassy mid-zoom, 35mm, 50mm, and 120mm are all significantly longer/larger than the Mamiya equivalent which moves the weight forward and off-balance of your hand (the 28, 80, 150 are all similar lengths).

Lens design is multi-faceted. Focal length, number of elements, maximum aperture, lens circle, and construction material size, and whether you include a shutter all contribute to the size and weight. Between Hassy and Mamiya one of the most significant differences in the size/weight is due to the inclusion of the shutter and it's impact on the design of the lens which is most notable on the 35 and 50mm lens where including the shutter greatly impacts the location of the rear elements of the lens which are preferably placed very close to the mirror box to avoid needing a higher power retro-focus element.

Did a Hasselblad sales guy tell you that Hasselblad has lens corrections and Capture One doesn't?

In fact Capture One includes lens correction (distortion, APO, vignetting, purple fringing etc) for the Mamiya/Phase lens line, Hasselblad HC and Hasselblad classic lenses, as well as several Contax lenses as well as customizing the corrections for generic lenses (e.g. for dSLRs). The anti-purple fringing has won us many Leica users since certain lens/M8 combinations result in a lot of purple fringing. The only difference is that in Phocus you click a box, in Capture One you select your lens from a small pull-down. Once selected you can copy-paste that adjustment to some or all of the images in the folder in literally a few seconds.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

Touché on the Capture One comment. It completely slipped my mind that Capture One did that. I used Capture one 3.7 before they added that. I assumed the DxO plugin for photoshop for some reason. Thanks for that correction. The batch processing and hot folder stuff sounds to be about the same between Phocus and C1. All in all, its just batch processing.

I did a comparison only between the Mamiya D lenses only because of your previous comment about them. Once again, though, you are looking at an average difference of a pound. The lens length hasn't ever been an issue with me and this is the first time I have heard someone complaining about it. Plus, MF users are most likely doing critical photography work. i.e. Fine art landscapes, commercial, stock, historic reproduction or whatever. In those cases, these cameras are mounted on a tripod so in the grand scheme of things, is it really an issue or are you just pointing out the nuances? I will gladly take that extra pound for the leaf shutters...
You get the benefit of having a faster sync speed and you also get a quieter shot with less vibration. Plus if the shutter goes then it isn't a big deal because you can still use your system with your other lenses. It won't put the body out of commission. For me, I could be in the studio one day, outdoors with my strobes the next and then I could be doing landscape work after that. Hasselblad systems give me the most flexibility to get the most out of them.

We could have the proverbial pi$$ing contest all day long but in the end, it is all about the photos, the user experience and their personal needs.

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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2009, 11:54:18 AM »
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We seem to have "lost" the OP in this thread  

Anyway, thank you Doug for clearing all the weight and size issues up with MichaelAlan.  To clarify, the OP stated size and weight were concerns, and why I mentioned the Mamiya as an option to consider over Hassy to begin with.

Re Plekto's comments on film: Yes an LF or MF film camera would cheaper on a total system initial cash outlay basis than MF digital, but the per-frame processing and scanning costs will kill you, let alone it's tough finding a *good* lab to do it any more, let alone the paraphernalia you need to carry around on a long trip -- film and/or holders take up as much or more room than batteries, chargers and memory cards.  (On a side-note, I still shoot film occasionally on my MF camera using a film back -- and I am amazed at how quickly I forgot about the hassles of running out of film at a critical moment or even just changing a roll out every 15 frames, to comparatively how much more convenient it is to swap in a fresh memory card or battery after a few hundred frames )  

Re Bernard's comments on stitching:  Couldn't agree more.  Even when done for landscapes with a basic DSLR, the results are impressive -- and definitely the time spent assembling the pano is going to be far less than the usual time spent cleaning the junk off a film scan   Moreover, if he's shooting MF digital to begin with, it is unlikely he'd need to stitch for added detail, but pano yes.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 12:04:35 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

Jack Varney
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2009, 08:55:49 PM »
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David,

After over 55 years experience shooting as a pro in South Florida (short tenure), selling camras (also short tenure) and many years as a serious hobbiest, I can tell you that only you can make this decision. Get one of each to try and give them a go. I have used Rolleiflex Twin Lens ( I still get heart palpatations whenever I see one, I love that camera) Hasselblads (500C a great camera that did not work for me), various 35mm cameras and Mamiya 645s. The Mamiyas have been the ones that word best for me, ymmv.

Most important, if you are not in contact with Capture Integration then you are missing an essential step in your journey. Living in north Florida now, I have found they have two locations that serve me well, Miami Beach and Atlanta.

Regards,  

Jack
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Jack Varney
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