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Author Topic: Looking for large capacity storage solution  (Read 19080 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« on: June 24, 2009, 07:15:48 AM »
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Anyone familiar with this solution? I am starting to look at my next generation storage solution.

http://www.sansdigital.com/accuraid/ar212s.html

What are the other interesting offerings with Raid 6 capability and a SCSI320 interface?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Tim Gray
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 07:36:17 AM »
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Does your Drobo not meet your needs any more, or is this in addition to?
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 08:36:50 AM »
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Quote from: Tim Gray
Does your Drobo not meet your needs any more, or is this in addition to?

Tim,

I do not own a Drobo in fact, my current setup is a combination of a 6TB Wiebetech TRX-600 and 4GB Buffalo NAS.

The RTX is slowly getting full and I need to start planning...

Cheers,
Bernard
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wolfnowl
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 02:21:00 AM »
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Giving away my age, but 25 years ago 1GB was considered a mass storage device - something only large corporations would have!

I've no experience with the setup you asked about Bernard, but after reading their specs it certainly looks impressive.

Mike.
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Sigi
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 02:56:28 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Anyone familiar with this solution? I am starting to look at my next generation storage solution.

http://www.sansdigital.com/accuraid/ar212s.html

What are the other interesting offerings with Raid 6 capability and a SCSI320 interface?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hello Bernard,

in case you need a backup solution for your "next generation stoarge solution" have a look at the Drobo Pro. I have a normal Drobo as I do not need more but a friend of mine who is a professional photographer has 2 Drobo Pros (one onsite, one offsite) and is very happy for backup.

This is of course for backup only where speed doesn't matter that much.

Sigi
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 03:07:25 AM »
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Quote from: Sigi
Hello Bernard,

in case you need a backup solution for your "next generation stoarge solution" have a look at the Drobo Pro. I have a normal Drobo as I do not need more but a friend of mine who is a professional photographer has 2 Drobo Pros (one onsite, one offsite) and is very happy for backup.

This is of course for backup only where speed doesn't matter that much.

Sigi

Drobo Pro seems to be the goods from my perspective as well.

I have pretty much outgrown my existing NAS back-up so am moving to Drobo Pro as my back-up and relegating my NAS to be the archiving solution. I think Drobo is a good stop gap before something as dramatic (and costly) as a fully fibre channel X-Serve or equivalent.

I am talking purely from a back up and archive perspective here - I use RAID 5 array for my my main library - I just back-up to the NAS (soon to be drobo).

A lot of course depends on the size of your image library.
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tived
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 04:09:59 AM »
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Hi Bernard,

I would stay far far away from the Drobo, what a DOG! Slow as a three legged dog.

Ok, on a more serious note, what are you wanting to do? obvious store your data, and given you are wanting RAID 6 I am assuming you are in the back of your mind thinking of this as a safer backup solution :-) while still being online and available.

Knowing that you are a Mac user, we have here an Xserve, with 14 disks and it is reasonable fast, but we should have used Optical Fiber links from the server to the work stations instead of Cat6 cables, but as a long term storage solution it isn't bad. Though it is on the expensive side.

We have reached the limit of the amount of storage we can fill this beast with, and bought a DROBO as a secondary storage solution with the network unit, but it is slow, so slow....If I have something online on the network, I don't want to wait till lunch time to access something, it has to be available within less then a minute tops.

So we have the Xserver, a Drobo and we will soon be running out of space. Some of the data we have is getting old and we are getting less and less request for it, so I am looking at keeping this data on hard drives that are off line, but with the use of an eSATA cradle, I think Jack Fletcher is using this solution, but i could be wrong, if so, my apologies! This idea will work with a good DAM setup, where the DAM application will remember on which disk the data is located. So the idea is to label the disks clearly :-) and insert the one into the cradle when you need. So what if the hard drive breaks down!? well, It would probably be a good idea to have this data on two disks one in the studio and one off site.

This way, I can keep what is current on my faster storage solution, and with my DAM application go and collect the disk with the old clients photos on and access them at the same speed as a normal hard drive.

What is needed,
   
       1) Hard drives in pairs
       2) eSATA card in your  Macpro and/or Macbook Pro
       3) eSATA cradle (usually also have USB, but slower), its small so you can take if with you on location, it supports 2.5" and 3.5" disks SATA and SSD, but limited to the eSATA port
       4) DAM application of your choice
 
think about it, you already have about 10TB of storage, that is online and available immediately...how much of this is current data? I know giga-pano's will consume lots of space, but still...

just my $.02

Henrik

PS:  I also have an HP U2 server with a MSA (Mass storage Array) using SCSI U320, 14 disks but as we both know it may be good and solid, but its old technology and considering the cost 300GB SCSI disks I think i'll stick with SATA, but it does support RAID6
its forsale :-)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 04:15:17 AM by tived » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 08:14:29 AM »
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Henrik,

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response.

Only keeping live the essential data is of course a valid option that would help extending the lifespan of my current setup. I can probably also delete some useless files like those used to compute the giga panos.

I must currently have just short of 4TB of live data and at the current pace will need to either delete, move offline or expand withing 6 months to one year...

I will never use a NAS again for live data, way too slow for all these applications enabling live selection of large selections of images.

SCSI drives are definitely not an option I'd consider, but most SAS enclosures accept SATA drives that are now dirt cheap. It is tempting to spend a bit and be done with worries about storage for a few years and that seems very possible with these 12-16 drives SAS enclosures.

Now one question among those is whether to go for a unit with built-in RAID, or with a JOBD enclosure connected to a Raid card in the Mac...

I am not sure about the respective advantages of both solutions, but the JODB enclosures are much cheaper.

This is why I am asking around for the best options.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 08:22:22 AM »
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Quote from: wolfnowl
Giving away my age, but 25 years ago 1GB was considered a mass storage device - something only large corporations would have!

Mike,

I haven't forgotten my CBM64 either! My current mac Pro has one million times more memory...  I am not sure to have one million times more fun with it though.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 10:15:02 AM »
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Bernard:

Sounds like you need a fast array for rapid access to working files, then a large array for safe storage of all current and historical images?

Perhaps your existing 6TB TRX can be reconfigured to a RAID-0 or 0-1 array for availability and something like the DROBO added for automated safe, but slower, storage?  One pretty large advantage to the DROBO is the ability to mix and match drives at some future point in time when the drives you originally filled it with are no longer available. Heck, you could even use the drives in your TRX to fill the DROBO and add newer drives to the TRX...  But of course the onboard logic required to make the mixed sizes work together in RAID, definitely slows down rebuild times when you need to do it.  Regardless, the DROBO automated rebuild happens, it just takes a while.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:17:39 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

reburns
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 11:41:53 AM »
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Hello Folks,


Not to steal Bernard's fire, but I have a similar choice to make.  I have very nearly filled a Infrant (now Netgear) ReadyNAS NV+ 2TB (4x500GB), and need more capacity with some live access.  One particular application I've invested in is SlimServer (Squeeze Center) music server for music around the house.  I am eyeing up ordering a ReadyNAS Pro Pioneer 6-bay NAS just because I've been satisfied with my prior ReadyNAS experience.  I figure on hawking the used 4-bay 2TB unit instead of populating it with new HDDs.  I have a simple XPx64 workstation with a single 15k SAS HDD and controller, and will add another internal 2TB SATA for live access to current projects.  I also use an external HDD cradle for archive backup.  

http://www.readynas.com/?cat=27    (they have announced a pricey 12-bay unit comparible to the SansDigital unit Bernard queries).   I am eyeing the new enterprise 2TB HDD (WD2002FYPS) (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=610), so face the hurdles of being an early adopter.  The whole expense is not one I can get terribly excited about.  I haven't yet looked beyond ReadyNAS because of positive past experience and my Squeeze Center use (plus a rebate ends 6/30).

Edit:  Folks get 100 MB/s transfer on the ReadyNAS Pro, and (unless y'all advise me otherwise) I ordered one but will not open the box until the techs email me that the 2TB HDD's work okay.  That transfer rate matches or exceeds the capture rate of my workstation.  

Bernard, your web images are inspirational!

Thank you, Ralph
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 04:17:42 PM by reburns » Logged
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2009, 06:48:43 PM »
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I have 4 of the 2 bay SansDigital carriers. They are OK, to down right scary.  There was a couple instances where it formated the drives without intention.  They ship in RAID mode, and if you have drives in it, it starts to format.  This happened to me 2x when reorganizing my drives.  Put something in that it doesnt recognize and there is a chance it will start to format.  Purchased a rescue data recovery tool, and all was recovered, BUT with new dates to the files. Screwed up my file org. This is on one of the silver LED readout eSATA RAID 2Bay models. The one you posted looks more serious.  SansDigital tech support was wanting to be helpful, but, not really. They basically stepped through the settings with me, and said if you'd like we can exchange it, etc. But no reason or understanding why it starts to format.


A inexpensive way to do this is use an old PC, download  FREENAS(on unix) software to manage it, and you got yourself a NAS that is potentially faster setup than entry level NAS.
This is actually much easier to setup than one might expect.

but if you are not up for it...

There is Netgear RND2000, and Thecus in the upper lines. As soon as it has a built in server with a processor, it is going to be a more active server (likely running Win home server or ?).

If at all possible I would get a empty setup and fill it with my own drivers.  I would also try to get one that is TRAYLESS design. I have an internal 4bay and it is so nice to be able to remove and swap drives without ANY tray or carrier for the drives. It just slides in bare.

Looks like anything decent is about $1k and up.

Jack Flesher's rec on having it setup as JBOD(Just bunch of Drives),  iis faster than RAID, and having another setup to back it up regularly would do the trick.  I would avoid the Drobo, as it is super slow.

ReadyNas as mentioned looks like a good unit.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 06:51:58 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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tived
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 07:36:22 AM »
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Bernard,

just came across this when looking for high speed raid http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-es-pro-xl.cfm 24 TB storage or this one http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-fc-xl.cfm you can hook up with Fibre Channel :-)

cheers

Henrik
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 10:42:01 AM »
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Quote from: tived
Bernard,

just came across this when looking for high speed raid http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-es-pro-xl.cfm 24 TB storage or this one http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-speed-fc-xl.cfm you can hook up with Fibre Channel :-)

Henrik,

Thanks, I was aware of this entry, but could not manage to find any pricing information on their website... which leads me to think that it is expensive.

Cheers,
Bernard
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N Walker
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2009, 12:47:47 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Anyone familiar with this solution? I am starting to look at my next generation storage solution.

http://www.sansdigital.com/accuraid/ar212s.html

What are the other interesting offerings with Raid 6 capability and a SCSI320 interface?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

I have just sold a Wiebetech raid unit for a Pro Avio Studiorack S4 rack system (JBOD), not their studiorack raid version http://www.proavio.com/. A few years ago I was led to believe that raid systems were essential, but not any longer. With four drive bays, currently servicing 1.5 GB capacity drives in each I have a fast system that fits my needs and AFAIK is very flexible, although it's almost time to purchase four additional drives again.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 12:51:01 PM by Nick Walker » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2009, 04:01:14 PM »
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I use Addonics products for video and photography storage. (http://addonics.com/)
1. For video I use their PCIe 8x card attatched to their external storage box (4 x 1TB drives) via an Infiniband cable in a RAID 5 array. Good consistent 125MB/sec transfer.
2. For photography work I use their eSATA JBOB PCI card to their external storage box with 4 x 1.5TB drives. This system is duplicated, so I am running 2 of these sets (PCI card and external storage box) of drives in a large JBOB configuration.
This is for a Windows system.
They have lots of other options so check out their site. They were a cheaper solution for me than many other "prepackeaged" solutions.
BTW in video work I would need a fiber channel only if I were capturing and editing uncompressed HD; I'm not there yet.

One more thought in the pack...
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yesjb
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 04:24:03 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Henrik,

Thanks, I was aware of this entry, but could not manage to find any pricing information on their website... which leads me to think that it is expensive.

Cheers,
Bernard

If you click on "BUY NOW" on the right it opens up a page with all the pricing. But you should be sitting down when you do :-)
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2009, 04:27:05 PM »
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One very useful feature I forget to consider when looking for these things, is the ability to "SLEEP" when the drives are not in use, or a set time they might go into use.

None of the SansDigital drive bays have a Sleep function.  I think for long life, and heat reasons, it would be important to have them Sleep when not in use...Specially when one of "racks" is used solely for daily, or weekly backups.

Any ideas if this is taken into account?
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2009, 05:00:23 PM »
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Quote from: yesjb
If you click on "BUY NOW" on the right it opens up a page with all the pricing. But you should be sitting down when you do :-)


this one is not too bad in price, and it is Trayless (feature I like)! I never tried or have heard of them  

http://www.datoptic.com/cgi-bin/web.cgi?pr...&detail=yes

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2009, 07:17:08 PM »
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Quote from: yesjb
If you click on "BUY NOW" on the right it opens up a page with all the pricing. But you should be sitting down when you do :-)

Actually there is a buy now for the fiber version,  but not for the other one.

The fiber version is at least 30% too expensive to interest me, and I would want to have a diskless version anyway. They are charging way too much for their drives.

Cheers,
Bernard
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