Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Looking for large capacity storage solution  (Read 19474 times)
reburns
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2009, 10:41:42 AM »
ReplyReply

Bernard,

I'm wondering what HDD you plan to use in your next storage array.  I've watched the HDD market some in past months and have seen a few larger drives:

A.  1.5TB  Seagate ST31500341AS Barracuda 7200.11 ($130USD)  
B.  2.0TB  Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EADS ($240USD)
C.  2.0TB  Western Digital Enterprise RE4-GP WD2002FYPS ($330USD)

I have chosen to order a diskless 6-bay 100MB/s ReadyNas Pro Pioneer expandable "X" RAID as the price was right ($975USD), and here's the murky datapoints on HDD choice:

A.  Early adopters experienced a very high number of failures using the Seagate 1.5TB.  Now after multiple firmware updates, this drive is approved for use by many NAS manufacturers.  The online consumer rating of this HDD is very low.  My buddy is the 3rd party chip programmer for the major HDD companies and told me that Seagate made development workflow changes that required them to rework all the old previously solved bugs.  So the price is right, but I'm afraid that you'll get what you pay for.

B.  Using the desktop-grade 2.0TB WD20EADS drive, many early adopters using RAID systems were successful, still some were not.  ReadNAS tech has emailed me that these tested well in some model NASs, but not older systems with SPARC CPUs.  They are testing these now in the NAS model I ordered.  

C.  Western Digital recommends using the newest RE4-GP drive in RAID setups due to reduced vibration.  However this is the newest HDD on the market, and besides being very expensive and out of stock everywhere, I would expect some firmware updates as is often the case with new models.  The ReadyNAS tech has told me that out of his sample of 14 HDD's, he had 4 fail in an older model NAS (the model I'm replacing).  They will test the drives next week in the newer 6-bay model.

Hence the HDD choice is very murky and a vote for RAID if using these high-density drives.  It's my tendency to get the latest & greatest in computing devices because I hate the overhead of making the switch.  My hope is that the latest and greatest will service me the longest before it's rendered obsolete, so find some justification for the new model prices.    

Cheerio, Ralph
Logged
Phil Indeblanc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1222


« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 10:52:47 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: reburns
Bernard,

I'm wondering what HDD you plan to use in your next storage array.  I've watched the HDD market some in past months and have seen a few larger drives:
B.  2.0TB  Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EADS ($240USD)

Cheerio, Ralph


I have read that these have a wakeup issue, and run slower than other 7200rpm drives.(?)

In my experience, no brand is bulletproof...BUT, I have had Maxtor drives fail me more often, and now Seagate. Out of maybe 10 failures, I have had 1 WD fail. I have also had good experience With old IBM drives. Samsungs also have tested to fail more often in large archiving arrays (HP uses them).  So far I like the Black caviar drives from WD. They are very fast for 7200rpm. But only time will tell.  HEAT is often the cause of short life to drives.  That is why it is also important to get a bay that supports "Sleep".
Logged

If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...
tived
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 691


WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 12:01:27 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Actually there is a buy now for the fiber version,  but not for the other one.

The fiber version is at least 30% too expensive to interest me, and I would want to have a diskless version anyway. They are charging way too much for their drives.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sorry Bernard,

Yes. I did forget to mention the price :-) ...i think our Xserver was AUD$20k when we got ours some years ago

Henrik
Logged
Phil Indeblanc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1222


« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 01:28:29 PM »
ReplyReply

I would think posting a budget would help greatly reduce your options.

I have a $600-1400 budget for this.

I already have most of my NAS that I put together myself up and running. So far it only cost me the hard drives, and a eSata pc card... and the old computer that I had use for.
Logged

If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8388



WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2009, 07:56:05 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: reburns
Bernard,

I'm wondering what HDD you plan to use in your next storage array.  I've watched the HDD market some in past months and have seen a few larger drives:

A.  1.5TB  Seagate ST31500341AS Barracuda 7200.11 ($130USD)  
B.  2.0TB  Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EADS ($240USD)
C.  2.0TB  Western Digital Enterprise RE4-GP WD2002FYPS ($330USD)

Ralph,

No decision yet on that. I am currently using 1TB enterprise drives from Seagate and (touch wood) have not had problems so far although the room I work in is often above 30 C.

For me reliability is an order of magnitude more important that any other factor, follow by performance, capacity and then price. If you think about the time you waste when a failure occurs, 10% less performance on every access is little price to pay and a few hunderds more $ also not that big an issue.

From that standpoint I would personnally avoid buying a high performance storage product that has been on the market for less than 6 months.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Phil Indeblanc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1222


« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2009, 11:36:28 PM »
ReplyReply

After making ill comments on SansDigital, as I own a few of their 2bay enclosures, I just took delivery of the 8BAY TR8M, which is the same as the Rosewill RSV.  I will post more once I setup complete.  I am intending on using this in JBOD mode, as I will have this doing backups of another 8TB.  We'll see how it goes.

Fyi: If I was to use RAID5 or something I would SURELY get a RAID controller.  If you are "serving only yourself or maybe a couple other units, I don't think it would strain a system much by having the controller on the workstation.

So far this thing is rather good. I ended up having to use the eSATA card it came with to recognize all the drives. The software that comes with it is limited and for some reason always shows 10 drives, so I always have 2 blanks.  It is FAST, but thats all due to the drives the Sata connection and controller.

It would be nice if it had locks on the drives.  The case is fine. It has LED's to indicate the 2 channels, the drives being live, and active.. It is quiet, and as long as the area you have it is properly cooled (75-77 degrees F), the unit is ok. But I had the drive on without the AC at about 80F, and the drives were rather hot. I think 110 is somewhat normal for drives, but I know that the cooler you keep them, the less likely to fail.  For $299, I think it is rather a simple solution for storing drives or creating a backup system.  I didn't need all 8bays, but I know it will fill quick.  If you have 3 or 4 drives and would want a drive storage and backup, this is great as it would be in one unit....surely plug to a battery backup/surge protected outlet.



Hope this helps Bernard and others.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:33:14 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...
Vautour
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 05:31:50 AM »
ReplyReply

Some advice:
  • Devices such as the AccuRAID AR212S (you get similar devices from DELL, HP, IBM and other, smaller server manufacturers) are meant as live storage. Usually file or database servers use these devices for storing their data. The RAID is only meant for reliability and thus availability. These devices are usually loud. Very loud. Small fans running at high speeds often without any temperature management (i. e. almost running at top speed regardless of envirinment temperature) safe warning messages if the temperature rises above given levels. So you would want to place one not in your office. Believe me, it's not nice working in the same room with such devices  The basement would be the place to put such a thing.
  • I'm not fond of bridging solutions. The mentioned NAS seems to use a SCSI controller and uses adaptors for SATA drives. You should be able to get pure SATA solutions where the translation between the two buses is ommitted.
  • If you're going to buy the HDDs separately buy from different dealers thus reducing the risk of getting only drives from one production run which might have had production failures. I've had good experience with WD's RE2 and RE3 drives. But as was mentioned every manufacturer seems to have problems now and again with some batches. I'd choose between WD and Seagate. Those brands have given me less bad drives than others.
  • Buy raid edition drives. They're somewhat more expensive but tested for 24/7 usage and often have better (longer) guarantees. As far as I know all major manufacturers offer them.
  • Use gigabit ethernet to connect to these devices. It's the most practical solution. Of course connecting them via SAS would give you higher throuput but also more cost. And again keep in mind that you most probably want to get such a device only with some walls between you and it.
  • Use a different backup device.
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8388



WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2009, 03:13:01 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Vautour
Some advice:
  • Devices such as the AccuRAID AR212S (you get similar devices from DELL, HP, IBM and other, smaller server manufacturers) are meant as live storage. Usually file or database servers use these devices for storing their data. The RAID is only meant for reliability and thus availability. These devices are usually loud. Very loud. Small fans running at high speeds often without any temperature management (i. e. almost running at top speed regardless of envirinment temperature) safe warning messages if the temperature rises above given levels. So you would want to place one not in your office. Believe me, it's not nice working in the same room with such devices  The basement would be the place to put such a thing.
  • I'm not fond of bridging solutions. The mentioned NAS seems to use a SCSI controller and uses adaptors for SATA drives. You should be able to get pure SATA solutions where the translation between the two buses is ommitted.
  • If you're going to buy the HDDs separately buy from different dealers thus reducing the risk of getting only drives from one production run which might have had production failures. I've had good experience with WD's RE2 and RE3 drives. But as was mentioned every manufacturer seems to have problems now and again with some batches. I'd choose between WD and Seagate. Those brands have given me less bad drives than others.
  • Buy raid edition drives. They're somewhat more expensive but tested for 24/7 usage and often have better (longer) guarantees. As far as I know all major manufacturers offer them.
  • Use gigabit ethernet to connect to these devices. It's the most practical solution. Of course connecting them via SAS would give you higher throuput but also more cost. And again keep in mind that you most probably want to get such a device only with some walls between you and it.
  • Use a different backup device.

Thks for the detailed feedback.

Noise is indeed often overlooked.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
tived
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 691


WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 10:33:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Thks for the detailed feedback.

Noise is indeed often overlooked.

Cheers,
Bernard


Ohh, yes, Totally agree, noise is very important or more so the lack of it, I am not using my HP MSA for that very reason, that it just makes too much noise. but the boxes do need cooling and that is what causes the noise, or you will have over-cooked images!

Henrik
Logged
Jack Flesher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2595



WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 11:09:36 AM »
ReplyReply

FWIW, one of the reasons I waited for the DROBO II was its greatly reduced noise signature as compared to the DROBO I.  Mine is currently sitting on the floor about 1 meter away from me and I cannot hear it.  I have it populated with reasonably quiet and cool-running Seagate and WD drives. To date even on heavy I/O, I have had the fan kick in maybe twice to a higher level -- and even then it remained barely audible.

Cheers,
Logged

Chris_Brown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 818



WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2009, 03:23:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Anyone familiar with this solution? I am starting to look at my next generation storage solution.

http://www.sansdigital.com/accuraid/ar212s.html

What are the other interesting offerings with Raid 6 capability and a SCSI320 interface?
There's plenty of card-based hardware RAID systems out there. They're great if you need the speed. I use a CalDigit HD Element for image data and video scratch. The R/W speeds are great (but there's faster stuff out there). For long term, no-speed-needed storage I use DroboPro units with 8x1TB drives.

Take a look at what the manufacturer's RAID card offers. That's a good way to "look under the hood".
Logged

~ CB
pschefz
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 244


« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 08:03:29 PM »
ReplyReply

got a lacie 4big quadra 6TB not too long ago....use it in a raid 5 (one 4tb volume on my desktop)...have some other smaller mirrored raids but will get more of these lacies....looks great, according to tests is one of the fastest enclosures, hot swap (if you need)....i am currently running it off fw800, will switch to e-sata soon (much faster)...they are also the most quiet enclosure i have ever had and by far the prettiest:) no powerbrick, just the cables....simple and elegant....and btw: i bought mine refurb'd for 900$ a couple of months ago....
i know lacie somehow has a terrible reputation but i have all lacie HDs and monitors and never had a single problem and their people are a joy....i had a problem with an external dvd burner once (it died) and they gave me a 30% valued customer credit off a new one although the warranty had expired a year earlier...this was my portable one which had been banged around quite a bit.....
anyway, they also have other solutions, check them out...
Logged

schefz.com
artloch.com
reburns
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2009, 10:12:18 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
From that standpoint I would personnally avoid buying a high performance storage product that has been on the market for less than 6 months.

Bernard, here's an update to this old thread:  Essentially I rode out that multi-month drive maturity period.  The system I upgraded to is a ReadyNAS Pro Pioneer, which is a 6-bay RAID NAS.  The drive I opted for is a Western Digital WD2002FYPS, a 2TB drive that is both enterprise and RAID rated.  There was a long delay until the ReadyNAS folks put out a add-on patch to accommodate these "green" drive's spin-down to ameliorate head loading, essentially disabling it (WD has a similar utility wdidle3.exe).  Anyway the NAS box is all good and is much, much quicker than my prior 4-bay ReadyNAS NV+ (for sale), and I have yet to make the smart connection to the UPS to disable journaling which gives a big speed boost.  This box is noisy with fans so locating it in the office closet is essential for peace and quiet.  

Meanwhile I added one of those 2TB enterprise HDDs to my desktop and it went corrupt in a few weeks.  Ordered a faster WD2001FASS 2TB drive to replace it from an online retailer, but the packaging was so inadequate (cardboard box with no foam padding) that the drive arrived dinged up and DOA (even the desiccant package had ruptured).  No mentioning the retailer's name but their initials are "MacMall".  I'm opting for WD to ship the replacement direct to get one that is packaged properly.

With my first HDD failures ever I'm glad to have the NAS box + secondary external caddy HDD archives.  The ReadyNAS Pioneer was just under $1k, and each HDD just under $300.  Perhaps you'll find it worth checking out if still looking for a storage solution.  

- Ralph
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8388



WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2009, 04:42:58 AM »
ReplyReply

This could be it...

http://www.thecus.com/products_over.php?ci...anguage=english

Wonder how noisy it is though.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
reburns
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


WWW
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2009, 10:25:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Noisy = fans = long lived cool life?  Fans might be a beneficial evil.  

(Bernard, ever see rampant green-magenta OOF CA using the macro on your Zeiss 100 f/2?   I bought one and do.)
Logged
paullantz
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2009, 10:43:23 AM »
ReplyReply

This is a pretty rambling message...much like my thinking on this topic.

So far I have used external USB drives and extra hard drives on extra computers that are networked to make sure I have multiple copies.
Now I am looking at replacing some of this stuff, including a couple of older servers (I think I do not need the added complexity of servers given that my main use is just storage).
I have thought about devices from QNAP (439 or 639) and also read about Thecus but can only find it in Canada at Tigerdirect.
Wondering also about the hard drives themselves, is it worth paying the extra money for server type drives (eg. WD RE4's) or just assume that stuff is going to fail anyway and that is why you have mutlple copies.
The awful thing about USB drives is the slow speed for initial backups, eSATA might be better.
I also like the ability to have all of the pictures available.

In ideal world would have a machine with one or more large drives with main copies of everything and then back that up.

Offsite storage is a problem. I have taken USB drives to my cottage once in a while. Now I have sort of high speed internet down there but it comes with a nasty GB cap so I suspect that physical transfer is still the way to go.

In the past have used tape (ugh, nothing really ever works that well and capacity is too low) as well as CDs and DVDs (time, patience and capacity).

One option is to build a machine in a case that will take a lot of HDs. I have a server now that takes six HDs but buying a server with that many drives seems expensive now (I got it at a really good price in 2004 because I got a Dell percent off coupon).
Logged
Christopher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944


WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2009, 06:51:32 PM »
ReplyReply

Well I am as well looking for a new solution. Something around 4-6TB in save storage. I'm still not sure what the right choice is. A DAS or NAS system ?

- I don't need to share the stuff on the drive.
- The main purpose is, to back up all the work on my workstation to an external device every 3-5 days.
- After each backup it will be disconnected, so that it is not on the same line as the workstation.
- I think I would prefer a simple back up solution with eSATA, but I'm open to new things.

Now what options are out there ? is it correct that all Drobo solutions don't have a eSATA connection ? Which I could't not believe.

Another one would be the LaCie 4big Quadra, which isn't to cheap, anything else out there ? The N7700PRO sounded quite nice, but some reviews of the N7700 said it is quite loud and only usable in a separate room, which would not work for me, does somebody know if they changed the fans used in the PRO version ?




Logged

mmurph
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 507


WWW
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2009, 01:44:15 PM »
ReplyReply

Watch www.techbargains.com for something like this expired deal:

EXPIRED Dell PowerEdge T310 Server Desktop Computer Intel Xeon 2.4GHz 4GB/250GB $420 Free Ship, Oct. 22 11 AM

Deal Expired: HOT deal! Dell Small Business has the Dell PowerEdge T310 Intel Xeon X3430 2.4GHz Server Desktop Computer for $420.00 after Coupon Code: N2MP0V07LCL2WH (Exp after only 50 uses!). Be sure to choose FREE Next Day Delivery. Tax in most.

Intel Xeon X3430 @ 2.4GHz;  quad core processor; 8 GB L3 Cache

4GB DDR3 RAM; 250GB hard drive;
dual gigabit ethernet; no operating system; 3yr warranty


1. Choose Customize it under PowerEdge T310
2. Scroll down to Primary Hard Drive and choose only 1 250GB hard drive instead of 2 for a savings of $129!
 

The cpu costs $204 alone retail at Newegg:

Intel Xeon X3430 Lynnfield 2.4GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core Server Processor - Retail

Add Windows Home Server for $99 (I bought it for $81) not on sale. Total cost $520.  Energy efficient, dual power supply capable, up to 32GB DDR3 RAM, dual gigabit NICs, RAID available.  Hot swap or cabled HDD and SSD.



This HP Mediasmart with WHS server costs $525:

CPU Type: Intel Celeron Processor 2.2 Ghz 64-bit
Installed Memory Size: 2GB
Memory Type: DDR2
Hard Drive (Installed): 1TB



Then add 4 x1.5TB to 2TB drives. Backup over gigabit.


The only **real** negative is that WHS is only 32 bit. The 64 bit Windowes Swer4ver 2008 & etc. is way too expensive. So I layered WHS on top of MSFT Hyper-V so that I can run other 64 bit aps while WHS uses small time slices and RAM.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 02:44:06 PM by mmurph » Logged
reburns
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2009, 02:04:39 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Christopher
- The main purpose is, to back up all the work on my workstation to an external device every 3-5 days.

Now what options are out there ? .........

Christopher,

Another option is backup software like "NTI Shadow" that came with the ReadyNAS box I'm using.  It does real-time continuous backups.
Logged
Christopher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944


WWW
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2009, 02:24:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: reburns
Christopher,

Another option is backup software like "NTI Shadow" that came with the ReadyNAS box I'm using.  It does real-time continuous backups.

Yes that is an option, but I normally prefer that the main back up and the original storage are not on the same power line all the time. I had once a very strange fuse blow in London, which actually managed to take out two main computeres even though they should have been protected behind a over voltage power connection.
 
One additional reason i don't like about most NAS systems, that they are quite loud. (Yes there are quiet once, but they jump in price quite a bit)
Logged

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad