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Author Topic: Phase Acquires Leaf  (Read 35520 times)
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2009, 12:50:32 AM »
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I don't think it's sad that the leaf website now shows a mamiya camera with a Leaf back.
Instead I think it more than proves that Leaf is indeed fully continueing.
Why hang on to a system that does not excist anymore and use an old website.

Don't get me wrong I would love the AFi to be continued, I for one like the camera a lot (after getting used to it) but reality is that it isn't happening now, so why keep it on the site.
At the moment Leaf is "again" a manufactorer totally concentrating on backs and those can be fitted on many cameras, so it's not a sad day it's a leaf leaf hurray day
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PeterA
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« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2009, 02:02:16 AM »
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If Phase One had a decent camera body and lenses which made me smile I woudl still be shooting with teh P45+. After seeing the way the Schneiders 'draw' I was hooked on the Hy6 and gladly switched with a guy who wanted the P45+ my Phamiya and and Phase back for his Hy6 and 75LV. Looks liek a dumb decision now - but hey - the camera still works and the back still works and the lenses are just fine...

I will take Phase One seriously when they show me a camerawith a viewfinder that is 3/4 as good as my Hy6 or H system. I mean no offence here - Phase One was in deep doodoo land without a camera platform - so they did what they did. if the Hy6 platform goes - it wont help them much in the end - because whilst the back and software is excellent - the camera platform is at best second rate. i dont really care what anyone else thinks about the issue and I know I might get jumped on for declaring such heresy and profanity.

As for Leaf I dont know why they didnt merge with Sinar - a marriage made in heaven - but it certainly bodes bad news for Sinar...

I have totally lost interest in the shenanigans ( death throes via a thousand cuts)  re MFD world anyway. @ 39 megapixels with blad and 33 with Sinar I have all the megapixels I need to shoot snaps with the SLR bodies and make a pic with my Alpa. If Sinar survive I will pick an artec and three lenses and thats it..ther eis no more left to explore in this crazy MF land - it is game over..red rover.

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amsp
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« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2009, 02:57:52 AM »
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Jeeeesh, maybe Michael should change the name again from "Digital Backs & Large Sensor Photography", to the Doom & Gloom section.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2009, 04:05:51 AM »
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I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
In my opinion still one of the best MF cameras, but the size but the handling and lack of AF is a problem for today on location.
However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
It would be a new camera I realise this (to add AF) but it's not impossible I think.
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BJL
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« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2009, 05:21:37 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
... However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
The good news is that the RZ67 system does focusing in the body with a bellows, so a body with AF bellows would add AF to all the existing lenses.
But I see no sign that medium format back and sensor makers have any interest in making sensors too large to work with the ever more  dominant 645 format systems.
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antonyoung
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« Reply #145 on: July 01, 2009, 05:33:53 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
In my opinion still one of the best MF cameras, but the size but the handling and lack of AF is a problem for today on location.
However some changes to the system and add AF and you have a wonderful system I think.
It would be a new camera I realise this (to add AF) but it's not impossible I think.

My money's on Bronica. I still would not rule them out either- resurrect the company, add autofocus to the SQ, enter a strategic alliance with Sinar to replace the Hy6, and Bob's your uncle. I'm under an NDA on all this though, so please don't spread it around. I may have said too much already...
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AlDoori
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« Reply #146 on: July 01, 2009, 06:24:59 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I still would not rule out a new system based on the RZ67Pro series.
there seem to be new RZ lenses on sale in europe.
i have the impression, the system is not in production anymore.
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carstenw
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« Reply #147 on: July 01, 2009, 06:39:02 AM »
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Quote from: pixjohn
YYZ ? = Yaya?

I presume it is someone in Toronto, maybe even a Rush fan.
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Peartree
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« Reply #148 on: July 01, 2009, 07:57:20 AM »
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Quote from: AlDoori
there seem to be new RZ lenses on sale in europe.
i have the impression, the system is not in production anymore.

I think this is true, certainly in Europe. The body and some of the lenses did not meet the ROHS (no lead content) and I suppose it would prove too expensive to re-engineer. Certainly the distributor in the UK is showing considerably less stock items on it's pricelist.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #149 on: July 01, 2009, 08:27:02 AM »
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Quote from: Boris_Epix
Let's look at a different angle... Hardware. Suddenly computers will not offer Firewire anymore. How will you tether when your current computer breaks?

I think this is a great example of how in the first several years of mainstream computing the backwards compatibility of hardware/file-formats/software was a major issue, but how in the last several generations this has been largely alleviated.

The Phase One LightPhase raw format (released in 1998) can be opened in the (free/no-activation-required) current version of Capture One 4. Since Capture One is a popular solution for Leica, Canon, Nikon, as well as Phase One users I would consider it a pretty safe bet moving forward. The fact that Photoshop, Lightroom, Irrident Raw Developer, and Raw Photo Processor can also open Phase raw files natively further contribute to it's future robustness.

SCSI and IDE were invented in 1986 and you can still buy new drives in these interfaces and there are numerous solutions (e.g. external enclosures) to use them. I will put big money on the fact that you'll be able to buy a firewire card interface with ease for the next 10 years and with effort for the next 20. They will come as they do now in the form of slide-in-cards for towers and insert-cards for laptops.

Plus the technical requirements for tethering a specific camera won't somehow jump over the next several years, so in the absolute worst-case-scenario you'd be able to use the same 2009 Mac Pro or MacBookPro to tether only 10 years from now as you can today. Especially with Macs (since the total number of models are so small relative to all the models of PC made) you can find an exact replacement in good condition at a reasonable price on short notice.

I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to these issues. It's just I think this issue is over-hyped because early photographers got burned big time in the earlier days of computing when the churn-and-burn was much more severe. With the advent of virtualization (hardware, software, and even operating systems) and the lessons of early computing the world of obsolescence (though still real) is much less than it was.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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James R Russell
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« Reply #150 on: July 01, 2009, 12:23:05 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
I think this is a great example of how in the first several years of mainstream computing the backwards compatibility of hardware/file-formats/software was a major issue, but how in the last several generations this has been largely alleviated.


Doug,

I respectfully don't think any professional photographer, or maybe the new term is "imaging professional", (just kidding on that one . . . I hope), needs to worry about firewire connection in the next few years, because the new port of choice will probably be  hdmi to go to a 20" lcd monitor, from their motion slash still camera.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry294986

JR
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tho_mas
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« Reply #151 on: July 01, 2009, 03:31:30 PM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I don't think it's sad that the leaf website now shows a mamiya camera with a Leaf back.
Instead I think it more than proves that Leaf is indeed fully continueing.
Why hang on to a system that does not excist anymore and use an old website.

Don't get me wrong I would love the AFi to be continued, I for one like the camera a lot (after getting used to it) but reality is that it isn't happening now, so why keep it on the site.
At the moment Leaf is "again" a manufactorer totally concentrating on backs and those can be fitted on many cameras, so it's not a sad day it's a leaf leaf hurray day
Frank, you are right. It's just sad to see such a nice camera to disappear. A MF camera without removable finder is somewhat strange to me. Don't know if I would have ever bought an Hy6. But at least it's nice to know that there is something when my Contax' bite in the dust. A prism only Mamiya would never turn me on - either way how great the other specs are.

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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #152 on: July 01, 2009, 03:43:56 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
Frank, you are right. It's just sad to see such a nice camera to disappear. A MF camera without removable finder is somewhat strange to me. Don't know if I would have ever bought an Hy6. But at least it's nice to know that there is something when my Contax' bite in the dust. A prism only Mamiya would never turn me on - either way how great the other specs are.
True,
I also love a WLF and Prism as an option, that's why I choose the RZ.
However I'm more than happy with the RZ.
For the studio it works like a dream (I prefer MF to be honest), for outside and the quick work I like a prism because I don't have to think from left to right.
But I agree I would LOVE a camera like the AFi again.
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Plekto
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« Reply #153 on: July 01, 2009, 09:36:18 PM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.

The thing is, they won't.

They have to out-do each other, like they do with cellphones and computers and so on.  25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor.  Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment?  I think it'll happen well before then, in fact.  Just because all of the DSLR makers are competing with each other to be ever higher resolution and ever-higher image quality.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #154 on: July 01, 2009, 10:25:41 PM »
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When you compare 35D to MFD they are different & both have there advantage. We are big Canon users more so than MFD at the moment. We just did a shoot with the P65+ about two weeks ago & the file quality was the best I have ever seen! We have used both the Aptus 22 & 33, the 65+ is even better. The chip is very close to FF ( within a few mils ) plus shooting into C1 4.8 is the best tethered SW we have used. Acquiring Leaf was a good move as they know color especially with skin tones.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #155 on: July 01, 2009, 11:55:21 PM »
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Hi,

Well, same physics apply to MFDBs and DSLRs. I'd think that today's sensor are pretty good so a revolution in light collection capability cannot really be expected.

The other issue is that present DSLR technology seems to be a stretch for lens designers. Especially Canon seems to have problems producing really good wide angles. It is well possible to design very high quality lenses, the Nikon 14-24/2.8 is a proof of that, and so is the Zeiss ZF 21/2.8.

There is now way around the old thumb of rule that bigger is better, but harder to use. Smaller will always be more economical.

The reason for "harder to use" is mostly that Depth of Field decreases with size. So the highest quality achievable is higher but within a smaller range of focus. So large format must be very good for repros ;-)

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Plekto
The thing is, they won't.

They have to out-do each other, like they do with cellphones and computers and so on.  25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor.  Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment?  I think it'll happen well before then, in fact.  Just because all of the DSLR makers are competing with each other to be ever higher resolution and ever-higher image quality.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:57:23 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Plekto
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« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2009, 12:14:26 AM »
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Well of course lenses are the biggest single problem, and always will be.  I think with the older 6-12MP DSLRs of a few years back, crap optics could suffice pretty easily.  But with 25MP, well, second rate optics are very noticeable.   That's one good thing about MF - the lenses might be limited and pricey, but there's rarely a clunker to be found.

But there's nothing to keep a DSLR from having equally good optics, at least in theory.  And to push towards 40MP in the resolution wars, Nikon and the others might just be forced to produce MF quality optics.

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2009, 12:46:43 AM »
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Hi,

If you check out MTF charts it's quite obvious that 135 lenses are better than MF lenses  in absolute terms (with a few exceptions). MF manufacturers also push limits, Hasselblad is now designing their own lenses in house, for instance.
Olympus makes one of the best lens series, but having one fourth of the area of 135 stresses design.

Canon produces excellent telephotos, where they seem to suffer is the wide angle end of the game. DSLRs are often used with zooms which are harder to make than fixed focals but the Nikon 14-24/2.8 seems to be an excellent example that excellence can be achieved even in ultra wide angle zooms.

There is an important limitation to pixel size, diffraction limit resolution to something like 5 microns at reasonable apertures. So once we go below five microns we get into diminishing returns, even with excellent lenses. But there will always be some advantages in having more pixels:

1) Better interpolation will be possible
2) Need for optical low-pass filte (AA-filter) will be reduced

The final result is that a 65 MPIxel MFDB will yield sharper images than a 65 MPixel DSLR (135/FX) at any reasonable aperture. One possible exception is if you are using one of the lenses which achieve top performance around f/2.8 or f/4, but then only within a razor thin plane of focus.

One issue with MFDBs is tolerances, Joseph Holmes published some very sobering articles about his experience with sample variations on MFDBs and MF-lenses.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr


Quote from: Plekto
Well of course lenses are the biggest single problem, and always will be.  I think with the older 6-12MP DSLRs of a few years back, crap optics could suffice pretty easily.  But with 25MP, well, second rate optics are very noticeable.   That's one good thing about MF - the lenses might be limited and pricey, but there's rarely a clunker to be found.

But there's nothing to keep a DSLR from having equally good optics, at least in theory.  And to push towards 40MP in the resolution wars, Nikon and the others might just be forced to produce MF quality optics.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #158 on: July 02, 2009, 07:58:34 AM »
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Quote from: Plekto
25MP won't be enough, so they'll move to ditch Bayer patterns(big money here - the DB makers can't R&D this sort of tech) and other innovations, or just cram 35-40MP in a FF sensor.  Do you honestly think that the 1dsMK5 or Mk6 when it comes out in a decade or so won't effectively obliterate the DB segment?

DB makers do not make nor research sensors; Dalsa and Kodak does.

High ISO is not my interest, image quality is, thus I use DB. Hopefully MPs & high ISOs are not next steps for Dalsa and Kodak, but REAL 645 sensor size and even better image qualities will be.

I am current venturing in large format using DB. MFDB and large format are different tools than DSLRs. It was funny, the other day I was test shooting a digital adapter on my Shen-Hao here in Shanghai and a guy with DSLR around his neck walked up and asked me: "Is that a camera?"   It is complete different tools yes, but yes... both are cameras...  

Anders

P.S. I can add that my cheap off Ebay old Rodenstock 150mm 5.6 Sironar-N is not quite as sharp as my sharpest Mamiya (28mm) but well up on pair or even more than my other Mamiyas!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 08:03:50 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #159 on: July 02, 2009, 08:04:41 AM »
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Hi,

- DB makers do not make nor research sensors; Dalsa and Kodak does.
Quite true, but there is more to digiatl photography than sensor technology.
----

- I am current venturing in large format using DB. MFDB and large format are different tools than DSLRs. It was funny, the other day I was test shooting a digital adapter on my Shen-Hao here in Shanghai and a guy with DSLR around his neck walked up and asked me: "Is that a camera?"   It is complete different tools yes, but yes... both are cameras...  

Well, the person behind the camera does also matter, a lot!

Best regards
Erik
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