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Author Topic: Time to upgrade my printer  (Read 7742 times)
Gurglamei
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 05:16:37 AM »
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Quote from: RichFisher
Phil,

Size is more than just how large I can print.  It involves unloading and file cabinet and moving the cabinet into storage (plus finding room to store the stuff in the cabinet).

I donīt understand what you mean, so maybe the following is irrelevant, but just my experience:

I am an amature and started off with a small Canon printer just to get a feal for the printing thing. It turn out I really loved printing and I quickly desired to gain more controll, better prints and the ability to print larger. I upgraded to a 17" Epson 4000 with the ability to use roll paper in adition to sheet paper.  I quickly became addicted to seing my images on larger prints and never printed any samller than A3. Since then I only use roll paper of my favorite choice and never miss the sheet option. The few times I need samler prints, it is usually for som family album where I find mail order services quite adequate.

Quite recently I decided to upgrade again and had to choose between a 17, 24 or 44 printer. Although I at the time didnīt do many prints at size A2, when I did I found that there was little room for a border around the image if I wanted it big on my Epson 4000.  Also, the ability to prinnt really large from time to time was very tempting.  To decide what I really needed I actually went to several exhibitions with a measure to se how big I really needed and found that a 24 would do for almost every image i make. If I wanted to print on canvas I would have gone for a 44.

The difference between prints from 24" Canon, Epson and HP printers were to my eye very small. Yes, you can see a difference if you compare, but which is "best" I really canīt tell. Once you get one of these printers home and canīt compare, I seriously doubt you are going to feel you are missing anything.

After reading the review on Spectraflow.com of the  Epson and HP I found they would both be good printers for me.  One thing that made me go for the HP is that it is the second generation of a fairly new printer, since this means they have gained some experience and had the oportunity to improve things that didnīt work. The other is that the HP dealer I use gives much better pre sales service than the Epson dealers, and so far post sale service and support has also been very good.

I took delivery of a HP Z3200ps some months ago, and I am very satisfied with it and the prints it makes.

Christopher
 

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neil snape
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 05:28:17 AM »
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Quote from: Gurglamei
After reading the review on Spectraflow.com of the  Epson and HP I found they would both be good printers for me.  One thing that made me go for the HP is that it is the second generation of a fairly new printer, since this means they have gained some experience and had the oportunity to improve things that didnīt work. The other is that the HP dealer I use gives much better pre sales service than the Epson dealers, and so far post sale service and support has also been very good.

I took delivery of a HP Z3200ps some months ago, and I am very satisfied with it and the prints it makes.

Christopher


That is exactly what they did. I spent a lot of time working with HP mostly Barcelona with ongoing testing the Z printers first generation. Although I found the first generation very capable there were some points of contention for certain users and usage. HP made some major modifications and many improvements so much so that they deemed it as an important upgrade to launch it as a new model.
So far I am very happy with these improvements, I'm not disappointed at all. As promised the Z3200 is more stable and doesn't need firmware tweaks or corrections to get the job done. Recently there is a firmware that adds features for accounting and paper management but again few bug fixes are needed.

I am currently printing a lot of portfolio on Glossy, for which the Z is king of the castle.....
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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2009, 01:02:57 PM »
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Quote from: Gemmtech
OK, I pride myself on reading comprehension and am always inquisitive about statements that are made that seem to contradict within the same sentence or paragraph.  You state that "Strictly in terms of the output quality I prefer the Z3200 a bit more than the others."  But then the next sentence you state: " The 7900 is a great machine but may be a bit overkill." What exactly does that mean?  The quality of the Z3200 is better than the 7900?  The Z3200 has better output quality but the 7900 is "Blank" what makes the 7900 "overkill" if the Z3200 has better output quality?  I ask these questions because every review that I have read has stated that the Epson 7900 has the best output quality of any inkjet printer.

To clarify. In my opinion the Z3200 delivers slightly better quality in terms of the surface finish on glossy media, Black and White performance, and in usable gamut. On glossy paper I like the HP's results better than the Epson as the Gloss Enhancer creates a really nice finish. The HP ink set is also more neutral than the Epson. In other area's it's pretty much a tie. It's really difficult to say X has better quality than Y, because quality encompasses so many different variables.  It really depends on what you need from the printers, otherwise comparing the 7900 and 3200 is like comparing german sports cars with italian sports cars, unless you really push them it may be hard to appreciate the qualities of either option. The 7900 may be overkill in the sense that many of the "features" are best appreciated when the printer is really being used in a high volume environment. If you only print a dozen prints a month will it matter that the 7900 is faster than the Z3200, or that you can use the 700 ml ink tanks? If you never print on canvas the new cutter will not be a big selling point, and if all your doing is printing on matte papers the expanded gamut compared to the 7880 may not be that big of a deal. So if you intend to only do low volume printing I would think that the Z3200 would be a good fit, if you need to do high volume printing then you may benefit more from the feature set of the 7900. Hope that makes more sense.
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Julian Mussi

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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 04:58:44 PM »
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Well said, Julian. I have a Z3200 and a Canon iPF8100, and at least as those printers are concered they are totally different animals that are suited towards different needs. I almost exclusively use the Canon for canvas, as it has a great built in cutter. I also use it for larger print jobs for ink economy and speed. The Z3200 is incredible for toned black and white images, as the printer driver can control the toning in the shadows, mids and highs separately. And I love the gloss enhancer. The 7900 is a wonderful printer, and probably a better printer for those who wish to have an easy out-of-the-box experience. Less tweaking, as well, but most people don't need or want the functionality.
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Andy Biggs
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Africa Photo Safaris | Workshops | Fine Art Prints
Gurglamei
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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 04:57:45 PM »
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Quote from: abiggs
The Z3200 is incredible for toned black and white images, as the printer driver can control the toning in the shadows, mids and highs separately.

I am new to black and white and have just finished my first print on my z3200. I converted with channel mixer in photoshop and printed the resulting image as usual. However, I understand you use some options in the printer driver. In the color tab I find the option to print in grayscale, but not the other options you mention.  Could you please explain this a bit more or advise me where to look for more information?

Christopher
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:00:31 PM by Gurglamei » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2009, 02:10:54 AM »
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Quote from: Gurglamei
I am new to black and white and have just finished my first print on my z3200. I converted with channel mixer in photoshop and printed the resulting image as usual. However, I understand you use some options in the printer driver. In the color tab I find the option to print in grayscale, but not the other options you mention.  Could you please explain this a bit more or advise me where to look for more information?

Christopher

On the driver menu page where you can set greyscale there is an advanced menu choice. If greyscale is chosen the advanced choices menu changes accordingly. Tools for B&W color toning, gamma etc are then available.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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neil snape
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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2009, 02:24:33 AM »
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One option that is missed is a grey inks only switch.  Now if you use printer colour management and greyscale the built in lut are neutral so much so I can't find any composite colour.  Yet if I pass through Photoshop manages colour and an APS custom profile from a Tc 9.18 chart some blue dots are added. Since the blue dots volume are larger than the grey inks they are apparent, but worse is the effect of grey balance failure in varying light.
It would be nice to convert any colour signals into grey plots.

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Gurglamei
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2009, 03:48:58 AM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
On the driver menu page where you can set greyscale there is an advanced menu choice. If greyscale is chosen the advanced choices menu changes accordingly. Tools for B&W color toning, gamma etc are then available.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Thank you! Looks interesting and I am looking forward to trying it out.  I see that the box for "Application manages color" is still active. Am I assuming right then that

1) when an image is converted to black and white in photoshop, to the printer it is still a color image and,
2) selecting the grayscale box is necessary to make the printer interpret the image file using only the black and gray inks?

3) using the advanced options makes the printer add some color toning to the black and gray inks, and that using this is a bit of trail and error to find an expression I like for my images?
4) Printing black and white images toned in Photoshop must be done without checking the "Print in grayscale" box, and then it is hard to controll which colors it uses in addition to balck and gray?

EDIT:
Thanks to you too Neil, I didnīt see your post before after i wrote this and from what you write 2) is not correct, but what is than the use of the print in grayscale box?


Christopher
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 04:15:23 AM by Gurglamei » Logged
neil snape
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2009, 04:19:38 AM »
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Quote from: Gurglamei
Thank you! Looks interesting and I am looking forward to trying it out.  I see that the box for "Application manages color" is still active. Am I assuming right then that

1) when an image is converted to black and white in photoshop, to the printer it is still a color image and,
2) selecting the grayscale box is necessary to make the printer interpret the image file using only the black and gray inks?

3) using the advanced options makes the printer add some color toning to the black and gray inks, and that using this is a bit of trail and error to find an expression I like for my images?
4) Printing black and white images toned in Photoshop must be done without checking the "Print in grayscale" box, and then it is hard to controll which colors it uses in addition to balck and gray?

EDIT:
Thanks to you too Neil, I didnīt see your post before after i wrote this and from what you write 2) is not correct, but what is than the use of the print in grayscale box?


Christopher
To print in grayscale you need to print with printer manages color. Then you can print regardless if the original is colour or already grayscale monochrome. In the driver only when you previously used printer manages color can you select grayscale, and tint options.


It does use essentially gray inks only when doing this as the Look up tables print with as far as I can see only gray inks. IF using ICC profiles however there maybe some colour or composite going on.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2009, 04:52:48 AM »
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Quote from: Gurglamei
Thank you! Looks interesting and I am looking forward to trying it out.  I see that the box for "Application manages color" is still active. Am I assuming right then that

1) when an image is converted to black and white in photoshop, to the printer it is still a color image and,
2) selecting the grayscale box is necessary to make the printer interpret the image file using only the black and gray inks?

3) using the advanced options makes the printer add some color toning to the black and gray inks, and that using this is a bit of trail and error to find an expression I like for my images?
4) Printing black and white images toned in Photoshop must be done without checking the "Print in grayscale" box, and then it is hard to controll which colors it uses in addition to balck and gray?

EDIT:
Thanks to you too Neil, I didnīt see your post before after i wrote this and from what you write 2) is not correct, but what is than the use of the print in grayscale box?


Christopher

Like Neil indicates you have to use printer color management with the greyscale choice, it is what HP recommends for B&W printing. On the Z3100 with a calibrated paper this will give linear output in the print. Tested that for several papers and it is consistent. On the Z3200 there are some issues with the linearity but this has been reported to HP by me. The same issue has been observed by Keith Cooper. With my method of B&W printing I like the Z3100 more than the Z3200. Color printing, profile creation on the Z3200 became much better though.

http://www.pigment-print.com/review/Z3200FirstPage_2.htm
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews...hp_z3200ps.html
both near the bottom of the page.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Gurglamei
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2009, 05:33:24 AM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Like Neil indicates you have to use printer color management with the greyscale choice, it is what HP recommends for B&W printing. On the Z3100 with a calibrated paper this will give linear output in the print. Tested that for several papers and it is consistent. On the Z3200 there are some issues with the linearity but this has been reported to HP by me. The same issue has been observed by Keith Cooper. With my method of B&W printing I like the Z3100 more than the Z3200. Color printing, profile creation on the Z3200 became much better though.

http://www.pigment-print.com/review/Z3200FirstPage_2.htm
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews...hp_z3200ps.html
both near the bottom of the page.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Thank you  :-)




Christopher
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 05:33:58 AM by Gurglamei » Logged
dave_in_gva
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2009, 02:30:02 AM »
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Interesting thread. I too am looking at a 24" printer now. I print occasoinally for my own use and prefer black and white. Until now I've been printing with an Epson 2100 (I live in Geneva, Switzerland), and have been happy with my monochrome prints using the QTR rip and the MIS Ultratone II inkset. I have been linearizing my own curves for B&W and making my own profiles with my i1. The one issue I have hated with the Epson has been clogging, and about 2 years ago when the Z3100 came out I was very interested because of the positive press on it's monochrome output.

We now have what appear to be three excellent 24" printers in the form of the 7900, the Z3200 and the Canon ipf6100. I'd have to say I am leaning towards the Canon. It gets less attention but I've not seen too many bad things written about it and I don't really need the profiling capability of the Z3200. Still, the Z3200 does appear to get rave reviews for the monochrome output and that is what is most important for me........I've not yet moved to baryta papers as I am still going through Hahnemuhle pearl stock but expect I will go the baryta route and think the gloss enhancer of the HP would go very well with that.

Epson has always been my printer make up until now but there is a hefty price premium over the Canon here in Switzerland (in fact both the Epson and the HP are considerably more expensive), and I am a bit concerned about some of the reports I am reading on errant cleaning cycles and clogs.

For the moment I am keeping my options open and just reading everything I can as I am not planning on buying for another 2-3 months. But at the moment I'd have to say the Canon ipf6100 is the way I'm leaning.

Best,

Dave M
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:30:25 AM by dave_in_gva » Logged
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