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Author Topic: Is the future of medium format still imaging actually video?  (Read 34645 times)
James R Russell
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« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2009, 10:15:01 AM »
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Quote from: digitaltechnyc
I was at the forefront of film to digital, and I heard statements like, it's not there yet, or give it time, a few more years.


http://www.b2pro.com/gallery/shot_on_red/i...p?gallery_id=17



JR
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2009, 01:36:06 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell

Do you have any comment on shutter speed

If you shoot to freeze action - 250 + then the footage is strobby

If you shoot for smooth footage the stills are blurred

So in this example it would seem that the Red was being used as a motor driven camera - nothing wrong in that of course - just I think a D3 on crop would outperform it (13FPS?)

IS there software for smooting sharp (say 250th) frames into fluid 'motion'

S


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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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James R Russell
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« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2009, 03:06:21 PM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Do you have any comment on shutter speed

If you shoot to freeze action - 250 + then the footage is strobby

If you shoot for smooth footage the stills are blurred

So in this example it would seem that the Red was being used as a motor driven camera - nothing wrong in that of course - just I think a D3 on crop would outperform it (13FPS?)

IS there software for smooting sharp (say 250th) frames into fluid 'motion'

S


Whether any of those sessions were shot motion and still at the same time, still then motion, or motion then still then motion, or if a D3 would have 30% more image quality, a p31 35% more image quality or just shooting with an Arriflex and an 8x10 would make a difference is somewhat irrelevant to what is happening today.

Today it's about costs, more media exposure and to some extent what is the flavor of the month.

When name photographers start shooting with the RED some of it may be the flavor of the month, it might be hype, it might be useful, but all any of this means is somebody got paid to shoot and either they or the client decided to shoot what is primarily a still session with a motion camera.

With all due respect this is a photographer's forum so the conversation usually spins towards image quality, smooth or choppy motion, which camera might be better and though that makes for useful conversation, in the end this is still a photographer's forum and I doubt if 4% of the people that read this will ever commission someone to shoot a commercial or editorial project.

When it comes down to the RED, or a 5d2, D3 whatever, if your a commercial photographer the real decision is made by what the client requests or even demands and it's obvious that more and more some clients are requesting motion as well as still imagery.

Now even if your clients never ask for a motion image, never see you in that role, I doubt seriously if most professional photographers, (and by professional I mean people that dervive 100% of their family's income off of photography) would be quite happy to have the last 4 years of work in still and motion.

This is a funny business, fads come and go, what is absurd today, can be commonplace in two years.

It's also an industry that can seem to be very set in it's ways until something is deemed natural or normal, then the dam breaks and everyone is doing it.

Right now motion and still production is in it's infancy of being accepted, but everyday there are more examples, which means everyday somebody that writes the check goes from the mindset of "why" to the dictate of "we must".

Every time I think I really understand this business, things change, but there is one thing I am certain of.  You either move forward or you get passed by.  I've never seen anyone hold their position and last long term.

Now to answer your question about 1/250th of a second yes you can smooth it though it does effect the quality of the motion, yes you can find some freeze frames at 1/30th of a second but best case scenario is to shoot the session twice and not just for technical but also asthetic reasons.

Maybe the day wil come where everything is shot at 1/500th of a second, every frame is 6k across and large enough for any application, print or motion, but don't let the facts get in the way of perception, because perception rules.

JR
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2009, 01:25:45 AM »
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Yes I am 100% professional and have been learning 'motion' for the last year now - I think this multi skilled approach is the way forward for photographers, especially those like myself working for lower budget clients for who paying two crews is a challenge

Really I consider myself to be someone who fulfills the imaging requirements of my clients which used to be 'stills for print' but now it is moving towards 'stills for print and stills and motion for web'

The closest I have got to this duality is for 'Gul' which was created by shooting motion and then repeating the scenes immediately for stills - my effort is summarized on my current homepage www.sammorganmoore.com

I tend to shoot 5d2 for motion and D3 for stills, even though I have a H1 and digiback, which now only comes out in the studio or on really sunny days, I feel that my images with the D3 are more dynamic than with the blad -  Im not a 'peeper'

I think clients may not notice a lack of MP in my shots or that my nikon lenses have more CA than the blad lenses, but would certainly notice if I were delivering stills with motion blur or strobby video

Im just not seeing how a motion camera, whatever quality, could be grabbed from to create stills, due to that contradiction that motion needs 'motion blur' in the frames to run properly while stills generally need to freeze the action

(and we have not even talked about lighting for motion where the light levels allow 250 shutter)

Can you outline a workflow in FCP that could create smooth motion from a movie camera shooting on a shutter speed of no less than 250?





S
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:37:58 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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James R Russell
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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2009, 01:45:58 PM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Im just not seeing how a motion camera, whatever quality, could be grabbed from to create stills, due to that contradiction that motion needs 'motion blur' in the frames to run properly while stills generally need to freeze the action

(and we have not even talked about lighting for motion where the light levels allow 250 shutter)

Can you outline a workflow in FCP that could create smooth motion from a movie camera shooting on a shutter speed of no less than 250?





S


The best way is to call an effects house, colorist, someone that works in all formats, cameras, film and digital, though there are workarounds to smoothing video, from making single frame sequences and then apply cross desolves to adding slight motion, blur.

There is no definative answer because every scene whether a pan to a zoom will look different at different shutter speeds and frame rates.

There is a reason in the film world that everything is  tested before hand, even setting the focus on the PL mount to checking every lens in the case, shutter speed for look, etc. etc.

What can be an easy photoshop fix on a still can be a many thousand dollar fix in motion.

Anyway, I don't really think that all motion imagery regardless of shutter or camera will always cross purpose to stills, or vice versa.

I also don't think it really matters whether you shoot the stills before or after a motion session because each artists has their own style.

Usually it is easier to shoot the motion imagery first just because your working such a wide frame size and then go to the stills but once again, to each his own.

Right now it doesn't take much research to realize that the cross over potential of all of these new cameras from the RED, the Lumix and the 5d2 is a big part of both the cinema and still worlds.

Zeiss has new compact lens sets in a PL mount that make shooting motion with a still camera much easier and precise, traditional film rental companies have moved into selling and renting dslrs and accessories.

http://blog.abelcine.com/tag/video/

JR
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:48:30 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2009, 02:25:01 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
The best way is to call an effects house, colorist, someone that works in all formats, cameras, film and digital, though there are workarounds to smoothing video, from making single frame sequences and then apply cross desolves to adding slight motion, blur.

Indeed

That seems a little adrift from the concept that Red seem to be pedalling of just pulling usable stills from a usable motion clip

If one could record at 240FPS then one would have a series of useable stills (1/480th) and they (10 frames) could be stacked to create a nice blurred 1/48th frame that would look like 'film' when projected at 24P

The technology is obviously an order of magnitude away from that in terms of buffer, resolution, onboard memory, ISO, post production muscle  etc

Without even considering framing and DOF requirement or the fantastic AF that C+N have for stills shooting

It would seem we are years away from a tool that one can pull decent stills from a useable clip

Large chip DSLR motion and using one set of primes for motion and stills is of course really nice although I have ended up buying different nikkors for motion than I use for stills - but its not a different way of shooting


S
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 02:32:16 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2009, 12:05:33 AM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Indeed

That seems a little adrift from the concept that Red seem to be pedalling of just pulling usable stills from a usable motion clip

If one could record at 240FPS then one would have a series of useable stills (1/480th) and they (10 frames) could be stacked to create a nice blurred 1/48th frame that would look like 'film' when projected at 24P

The technology is obviously an order of magnitude away from that in terms of buffer, resolution, onboard memory, ISO, post production muscle  etc

Without even considering framing and DOF requirement or the fantastic AF that C+N have for stills shooting

It would seem we are years away from a tool that one can pull decent stills from a useable clip

Large chip DSLR motion and using one set of primes for motion and stills is of course really nice although I have ended up buying different nikkors for motion than I use for stills - but its not a different way of shooting


S


Not really that far away.  The next RED promises 120 FPS at 5K, should be within a year from now. The RED One is a terrific digital motion picture camera, but the Epic 35 is really the camera that will set new standards in the film industry. It will also be the camera for still shooters to use to capture perfect still images along with motion. Scarlet will be a winner on the low end, and the Epic on the high end.

And I think all this will happen probably within a year from now.

Canon should be in a perfect place to compete, once they realize the demand. The Canon 5D is fine for fooling around but to really compete they need to shoot variable frame rates and output the frames as raw files as the RED does. Panasonic and Sony have the knowledge but will they be willing to destroy their high end video product lines with full frame 35mm sensor digital movie cameras for $5-25K camera bodies? We're in for a wild ride but it will be fun.


As far as getting stills from the footage, RED Cine and other software does it already.

Because I have always wanted to shoot both motion and stills, it's really a dream come true for me.

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2009, 10:35:02 AM »
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Quote from: stevesanacore
As far as getting stills from the footage, RED Cine and other software does it already.

Im not sure how you mean you are getting stills from footage - sure you can extract the frame but is it any good?

Surely if you are creating usable motion footage your shutter is at 1/48 and therefore your stills are blurred in the main (and therefore unusable)

OR

you are shooting at a motion freezing shutter like 1/250 - you get usable stills but your footage is strobby and stutters and is therefore unusable in the main

---

As for the computer horsepower of dealing with 120FPS 5k RAW my computers certainly not near being able to handle that !

S






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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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eronald
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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2009, 06:11:59 PM »
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Quote from: michael
Scarlet will change everything. Trust me on this, (and quote me if I prove to be wrong).

I've eaten my hat before, but not often, and I don't think I will this time

Michael

Michael,

I'll donate a paper hat, w'll write "Michael is a good sport" on it with food coloring, and you get to put it in a blender before you eat it

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
michael
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2009, 08:18:04 PM »
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Yummy
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vgogolak
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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2010, 03:02:54 PM »
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Quote from: michael
Scarlet will change everything. Trust me on this, (and quote me if I prove to be wrong).

I've eaten my hat before, but not often, and I don't think I will this time

Michael


Well, Leica had a camera called "Magenta" and we know what happened there.... :-)

Speaking of which, are any of the nifty new "Hot" (colored/named) cameras shipping?

Maybe the S2 WILL beat RED...
ok, ok I'm being a bad boy (at 67!) But remember when we saw digital first? thought 'no way 1MP' would compete with film, and the Kodaks were coming out with monsters costing $30,000,

fast (sic!) forward 10 years and we have 10 MP CUFF LINK cameras for $49.95!  LOL

It will come, but it probably won't be called Red, and it will take 5-10 years as Graham says. Technology may be fast, but manufacturing, markets and the economy may not move as quickly.

Think of recent history:
"walkie talkie" sized cells phones to matchbook size
Osborne 64kb computer 'steamer trunks' to 'windows in your pocket, with 1TB drives

The problem with Red is its very flexibility...

an old saying
"there is no sure path to success, but there is a sure path to failure...
...trying to please everybody.

THAT may be the long term issue with Red.

Victor
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