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Author Topic: Zeiss - please make your Medium Format lenses in other mounts!  (Read 11211 times)
narikin
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« on: July 01, 2009, 12:45:56 PM »
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Was looking at the Zeiss MTF charts for their Sinar 'ZH' mount AutoFocus lenses, and they are off the charts good!
the 80mm ZH Planar is simply astonishing, way better than every other MF 'standard' out there, including Zeiss' own Hasselblad Planars:

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...r_2-8_80_06.pdf
compare it to Hasselblad Planar:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...FE_102211_e.pdf

Please Zeiss make this lens in other mounts - its AF, newly designed with latest optics, and I doubt you've sold 100 of them in Sinar mount.
So do the smart thing and make it in Mamiya and Hasselbald fit, like you are doing with your 35mm lenses. its simple, and all professionals love Zeiss quality and we have the $ to pay for it!





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Rob C
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2009, 01:57:39 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
Was looking at the Zeiss MTF charts for their Sinar 'ZH' mount AutoFocus lenses, and they are off the charts good!
the 80mm ZH Planar is simply astonishing, way better than every other MF 'standard' out there, including Zeiss' own Hasselblad Planars:

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...r_2-8_80_06.pdf
compare it to Hasselblad Planar:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...FE_102211_e.pdf

Please Zeiss make this lens in other mounts - its AF, newly designed with latest optics, and I doubt you've sold 100 of them in Sinar mount.
So do the smart thing and make it in Mamiya and Hasselbald fit, like you are doing with your 35mm lenses. its simple, and all professionals love Zeiss quality and we have the $ to pay for it!




I once wrote to Leica suggesting they consider expanding their mounts to Nikon, but they replied by telling me about the R range... oh dear, what a world.

Rob C
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PeterA
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2009, 05:54:33 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
Was looking at the Zeiss MTF charts for their Sinar 'ZH' mount AutoFocus lenses, and they are off the charts good!
the 80mm ZH Planar is simply astonishing, way better than every other MF 'standard' out there, including Zeiss' own Hasselblad Planars:

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...r_2-8_80_06.pdf
compare it to Hasselblad Planar:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...FE_102211_e.pdf

Please Zeiss make this lens in other mounts - its AF, newly designed with latest optics, and I doubt you've sold 100 of them in Sinar mount.
So do the smart thing and make it in Mamiya and Hasselbald fit, like you are doing with your 35mm lenses. its simple, and all professionals love Zeiss quality and we have the $ to pay for it!

BUT - have you checked out the price of these lenses for the Sinar M system? - that might chgange your mind or not.
As for Leica making lenses for CaNikon - according to a recent Leica response to the issue - they aren't allowed as the Japanese camera community industry jealously guards their patents and pretty much allows only Japanese manufacturers to make alternatives ...
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cyberean
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 09:41:15 PM »
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Quote from: PeterA
As for Leica making lenses for CaNikon - according to a recent Leica response to the issue - they aren't allowed as the Japanese camera community industry jealously guards their patents and pretty much allows only Japanese manufacturers to make alternatives ...
perhaps Zeiss has better negotiating skills ...  
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...125711B005A77C4
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...12572820048463E




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georgl
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 03:22:07 AM »
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"perhaps Zeiss has better negotiating skills ...  
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...125711B005A77C4
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...20048463E"

Those are Cosina-lenses, the ZH-lenses are from Carl Zeiss - the brand name is irrelevant here.

I don't know why the 80mm has a better MTF, the 120mm and 180mm seem to be identical to the old designs!? The only real new design seems to be the 40IF (which later was also brought to Hasselblad).

The ZH-lenses seem to be top-notch but they're quite expensive. For some reason, Pros buy >>10k-MFDBs every 2-4 years but don't want to spend as much on lenses that last for decades...  
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 03:30:12 AM by georgl » Logged
tetsuo77
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 04:14:09 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
BUT - have you checked out the price of these lenses for the Sinar M system? - that might chgange your mind or not.
As for Leica making lenses for CaNikon - according to a recent Leica response to the issue - they aren't allowed as the Japanese camera community industry jealously guards their patents and pretty much allows only Japanese manufacturers to make alternatives ...

?

Which is the reason why the Pentax K mount is an open-source mount and, for that, chosen by so many russian manufacturers and Cosina-Vivitar offerings as their own mount.
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 09:32:44 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
BUT - have you checked out the price of these lenses for the Sinar M system? - that might chgange your mind or not.
As for Leica making lenses for CaNikon - according to a recent Leica response to the issue - they aren't allowed as the Japanese camera community industry jealously guards their patents and pretty much allows only Japanese manufacturers to make alternatives ...

Hoqwash. The first releases of the lenses from the Cosina made Zeiss lenses (Nikon F mount, Pentax K mount etc,) is that those mounts had fallen out of patent protection, so those were fair game so Zeiss could proceeded with those first. The reason the Zeiss ZE series (Canon EF mount) took so much longer to reach the market was due to patent issues with the Canon EF mount. This was stated openly by Zeiss.





Quote from: georgl
"perhaps Zeiss has better negotiating skills ...  
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...125711B005A77C4
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...20048463E"

Those are Cosina-lenses, the ZH-lenses are from Carl Zeiss - the brand name is irrelevant here.

Hogwash. Cosina is acting as an OEM in the above regard. The designs originated from Zeiss, but in cooperation with Cosina, the designs were tweaked to best fit Cosina's manufacturing capabilities, and the need to reach a certain price point. The Zeiss/Cosina relationship was not a match made in heaven though. It was rocky at first. Certain procedures and processes were not available through Cosina. Case in point, the ZM 15/2.8 lens had issues, so Zeiss had to bring production of that lens back to Germany.
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narikin
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 10:54:26 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
BUT - have you checked out the price of these lenses for the Sinar M system? - that might change your mind or not.
yes of course, but as a 30+ year pro, I'm used to serious investing in my equipment, and don't find those figures out of line compared to my digital backs or other equipment.
to spend $6-8k on an off-the-charts-good prime lens is perfectly feasible for me and many other professionals, especially if it makes our images stand out in their colour quality and resolution. In fact its a relatively small investment, considering its timescale it would pay back over compared to MF backs!


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cyberean
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 10:59:36 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
"perhaps Zeiss has better negotiating skills ...  
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...125711B005A77C4
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...20048463E"

Those are Cosina-lenses, the ZH-lenses are from Carl Zeiss - the brand name is irrelevant here.

I don't know why the 80mm has a better MTF, the 120mm and 180mm seem to be identical to the old designs!? The only real new design seems to be the 40IF (which later was also brought to Hasselblad).

The ZH-lenses seem to be top-notch but they're quite expensive. For some reason, Pros buy >>10k-MFDBs every 2-4 years but don't want to spend as much on lenses that last for decades...  
if you've actually used any of these lenses, instead of spending all your time reading charts
and graphs and paying too much attention to the "Made in XXXX" stamp
, nothing about
their optical performance and characteristics suggests they are not Zeiss lenses.



Quote from: jjlphoto
Case in point, the ZM 15/2.8 lens had issues, so Zeiss had to bring production of that lens back to Germany.
as was the case with the ZM 85/2

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Christopher Arnoldi
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 11:58:52 AM »
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I have all 4 ZH lenses and I had the old 80 mm Hasselblad (The Sinar m has a Hasselblad V bayonet). The new 80 mm is really better. The others are the same lens designs as the newest Hasselblad V lenses. Because of the smaller image circle the MTFs are cutted off at 30 mm instead of 40 mm at the Hasselblad V lenses.
If someone is interested, I can send some test images. That are really big lenses, as you can see on the attached picture.

Christopher
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filmcapture
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2009, 12:14:16 PM »
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Comparing 80mm ZH lens to a Hasselblad V lens is unfair. The ZH lens has a much smaller image circle.
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georgl
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2009, 02:16:53 PM »
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I haven't noticed the different image circle in the MTFs - but the 80 Planar still seems to be superior!?

I know how well lenses like the 1,4/85 Planar from Cosina perform - but that's the technical standard Carl Zeiss reached decades ago and was first brought to Kyocera and now Sony/Cosina. The dfifference in mechanical quality is one thing but the optical design is another. When somebody would order a 1,4/85 or MF 2,8/80 from Carl Zeiss and would be willing to pay for their highest design/manufacturing standards in Oberkochen/Jena, you would get a - visibly - different performance. Lenses which are designed and manufactured this way are an good example, just like the Summilux 1,4/50Asph from Leica - much more expensive but also much higher performing and you're not buying a Cosina instead of the native lens because of it's price, you want to drive your 8k$-DSLR to it's limits!
Leica and especially Carl Zeiss have a different production staff (Facharbeiter), machines (like CNC-machining of aspheric lens elements) and experience - that's the reason why they are able to deliver unique performances - not because of "Made in" or the brand name and this is the only thing that matters in the end. Most MF-lenses from today represent the technical standard of the 1970s (no floating elements, aspherics, radical different non-gauss designs - most Zeiss/Hasselblad-lenses introduced in this time like the 3,5/100 are still comparable to todays lenses) which usually results in good results when stopped down. But fast primes with high-contrast at open aperture or compact zooms above f4? Zeiss could surely deliver those lenses, but most users seem to be more focused on megapixels...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 02:17:39 PM by georgl » Logged
carstenw
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 03:32:42 PM »
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Quote from: filmcapture
Comparing 80mm ZH lens to a Hasselblad V lens is unfair. The ZH lens has a much smaller image circle.

And on which V camera was this useful?
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 04:30:10 PM »
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Quote from: georgl
....I know how well lenses like the 1,4/85 Planar from Cosina perform - but that's the technical standard Carl Zeiss reached decades ago and was first brought to Kyocera....
Not all lenses have a direct lineage from the Contax RTS (Zeiss/Yashica) through the Contax-N (Zeiss/Kyocera) to the Zeiss ZF/ZS/ZK/ZE (Zeiss/Cosina). I will use your 84/1.4 as an example.

The original 85/1.4 CY lens began in 1975 made in West Germany. In 1990, production of that lens eventually went to Japan, up until the demise of the Contax line. Along the way, there were subtle changes such as coating changes, iris blade changes, etc. Some CY lenses underwent lens formula changes, but there is no documentation that the 85/1.4 was one of them. All in all, the 85/1.4 CY stayed pretty much the same.

The 85/1.4-N lens, an all electronic auto focus lens, bears little resemblance to its CY cousin. That lens was designed from the ground up to be an entirely new design for the N-series.

The 85/1.4 Z series was designed with Cosina's manufacturing capabilities and a competitive price point in mind, but all in all, a new design while having some roots from the original 85/1.4 CY design.

Quote
....When somebody would order a 1,4/85 or MF 2,8/80 from Carl Zeiss and would be willing to pay for their highest design/manufacturing standards in Oberkochen/Jena, you would get a - visibly - different performance....
The Carl Zeiss lenses we know today have not been made in Jena since the end of WWII. What remained in Jena was but a mere shell of the original Carl Zeiss, and after WWII became V.E.B Carl Zeiss Jena, a 'peoples owned corporation' behind the iron curtain. They had their own line of optical products.

Quote
....and now Sony/Cosina....

There has been no data or charts posted that I have seen on the Sony lenses. Anyone have any to post? From what I have read, Sony manufactures them, and Zeiss is a minor player there, providing some design guidance.

Posted below are the three Zeiss 85/1.4's (all at same scale)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 04:43:15 PM by jjlphoto » Logged

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narikin
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2009, 04:45:30 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher Arnoldi
I have all 4 ZH lenses and I had the old 80 mm Hasselblad (The Sinar m has a Hasselblad V bayonet). The new 80 mm is really better. The others are the same lens designs as the newest Hasselblad V lenses. Because of the smaller image circle the MTFs are cutted off at 30 mm instead of 40 mm at the Hasselblad V lenses.
If someone is interested, I can send some test images. That are really big lenses, as you can see on the attached picture.

Christopher
just out of interest, which back are you using on the Sinar M ?
I know the P65+ (or any Phase back) does not have a Sinar fitting, so am wondering what there is that can make use of the amazing lens resolution
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cyberean
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2009, 05:15:49 PM »
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Quote from: georgl
Leica and especially Carl Zeiss have a different production staff (Facharbeiter), machines (like CNC-machining of aspheric lens elements) and experience - that's the reason why they are able to deliver unique performances - not because of "Made in" or the brand name and this is the only thing that matters in the end.
no, "the only thing that matters in the end" is the picture, the photograph, the image.
... all else is gearhead talk and forum fodder.

not one of the Zeiss lenses i use, some German and most Japanese made, give my
photographs/images any less than what i expect from Zeiss.
but i also realize that some out there still believe that a Canadian-made Leica lens is
not a real Leica lens, either.  


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cyberean
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2009, 05:23:39 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
There has been no data or charts posted that I have seen on the Sony lenses. Anyone have any to post? From what I have read, Sony manufactures them, and Zeiss is a minor player there, providing some design guidance.
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Cont...125711E004AD17C


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henrikfoto
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2009, 06:16:32 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
just out of interest, which back are you using on the Sinar M ?
I know the P65+ (or any Phase back) does not have a Sinar fitting, so am wondering what there is that can make use of the amazing lens resolution



I have tried a few backs (all from Sinar) with my Sinar M. The only one I think is extremely good is the old Sinarback 54H.
That back in multishot with a Sinar M makes the newer backs look like a bad dream!
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PeterA
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2009, 06:35:56 PM »
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Quote from: jjlphoto
Hoqwash. The first releases of the lenses from the Cosina made Zeiss lenses (Nikon F mount, Pentax K mount etc,) is that those mounts had fallen out of patent protection, so those were fair game so Zeiss could proceeded with those first. The reason the Zeiss ZE series (Canon EF mount) took so much longer to reach the market was due to patent issues with the Canon EF mount. This was stated openly by Zeiss.


Dear Chap - I was merely quoting - what a Leica spokesman said only a few days ago regarding this issue.....also a mount is a very different thing to a direct connection between electronics on board the camera systems transfer of metadata synced autofocus etc etc etc..

Cheers and do have a nice weekend.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 07:58:50 PM by PeterA » Logged
Christopher Arnoldi
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 05:37:09 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
just out of interest, which back are you using on the Sinar M ?
I know the P65+ (or any Phase back) does not have a Sinar fitting, so am wondering what there is that can make use of the amazing lens resolution

I'm using the Sinarback 54H and the eMotion 54 LV. Actually I use the 54H with the Sinar m on a Sinar p3 and the 2nd Sinar m with the eMotion 54 LV with the Zeiss ZH lenses.
I hoped for the new Leaf 54 megapixel back, but I guess it will not come for Sinar
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