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Author Topic: Zeiss - please make your Medium Format lenses in other mounts!  (Read 10848 times)
David Klepacki
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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2009, 12:30:37 AM »
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Here are some images of my Sinar M camera that show the side grip (with and without grip).  I did not like the original bottom grip at all.  It was too bulky and heavy.  I think Sinar actually discontinued that bottom grip for the M.  The new side grip is really lightweight and much nicer.  It uses the same popular batteries as those used in the Hy6/AFi and similar camcorders.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 12:30:55 AM by David Klepacki » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2009, 03:23:06 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
Here are some images of my Sinar M camera that show the side grip (with and without grip).  I did not like the original bottom grip at all.  It was too bulky and heavy.  I think Sinar actually discontinued that bottom grip for the M.  The new side grip is really lightweight and much nicer.  It uses the same popular batteries as those used in the Hy6/AFi and similar camcorders.



How long does this new battery last (shooting-time)?

Henrik
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narikin
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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2009, 07:25:29 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
Also, for hand-held shooting, I have not found any resolution difference between an image from the P65+ and the e75LV.  Even if you are printing larger than 30x40, hand-held shooting limits the details that you can physically capture.  The extra megapixels in such images are similar to up-sizing, i.e., a larger image, but no real resolution gain.
having just gone from P45+ to P65+ I can tell you there are very real gains to be made in that back, besides resolution - dynamic range being one of them. Its very noticeable. would like to see what your lovely Zeiss lenses could do with that image depth, but alas, its impossible, which is the original point of this post - make the lenses available to other users!

it is hard to make any definitive assessment of hand held digiback resolution limits as its all so random, when its truly 'handheld'....
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 08:54:30 AM by narikin » Logged
narikin
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2009, 07:27:54 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
Here are some images of my Sinar M camera that show the side grip (with and without grip).  I did not like the original bottom grip at all.  It was too bulky and heavy.  I think Sinar actually discontinued that bottom grip for the M.  The new side grip is really lightweight and much nicer.  It uses the same popular batteries as those used in the Hy6/AFi and similar camcorders.
looks great. thanks for posting. jealous!
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David Klepacki
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2009, 08:51:06 AM »
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Quote from: henrikfoto
How long does this new battery last (shooting-time)?

Henrik
For me, they last a plenty long time.  The battery in the side grip is dedicated to the camera.  An additional battery of the exact same type is used by the Sinar eMotion backs, so they are interchangeable.  When shooting on location, I only take four batteries with me (one backup each for camera and MFDB), and only in extreme cases of shooting continuously all day with only the one camera do I need to replace one of them (and usually the one in the MFDB).  When I return to the studio, I just pop them into the charger, and they are ready for the next day of shooting.

I don't shoot in extreme cold weather, so I cannot say how much that would reduce their duration under such conditions.  Remember, these batteries were originally designed for power-hungry videocams that last for 90 minutes or more of pure recording time.  When used on a still camera like the M, that translates into a lot of image captures.
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David Klepacki
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2009, 09:28:34 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
having just gone from P45+ to P65+ I can tell you there are very real gains to be made in that back, besides resolution - dynamic range being one of them. Its very noticeable. would love to see what your lovely Zeiss lenses could do with that depth, but alas, its impossible, which is the original point of this post - make the lenses available to other users!

it is hard to make any definitive assessment of hand held digiback resolution limits as its all so random, when its truly 'handheld'....
Yes, the P45+ uses an older chip technology from Kodak, so I believe you will see a marked improvement in the P65+ using its new Dalsa chip.  There are also some color tolerance issues with that Kodak chip in comparison to Dalsa's chips, as reported nicely by Joe Holmes on his website.  

Actually, the Dalsa chip inside the Sinar e75LV has the same dynamic range as the Dalsa chip in the P65+.  The e75LV has perhaps a bit more due to the greater signal-to-noise capability of its larger pixels.   However, this difference is so small that I think it is fair to say that both of these chips deliver about 12 f-stops of equivalent dynamic range.  

So indeed, one can enjoy the Zeiss Sinaron glass with such depth  
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:29:11 AM by David Klepacki » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2009, 06:51:47 PM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
Yes, the P45+ uses an older chip technology from Kodak, so I believe you will see a marked improvement in the P65+ using its new Dalsa chip.  There are also some color tolerance issues with that Kodak chip in comparison to Dalsa's chips, as reported nicely by Joe Holmes on his website.  

Actually, the Dalsa chip inside the Sinar e75LV has the same dynamic range as the Dalsa chip in the P65+.  The e75LV has perhaps a bit more due to the greater signal-to-noise capability of its larger pixels.   However, this difference is so small that I think it is fair to say that both of these chips deliver about 12 f-stops of equivalent dynamic range.  

So indeed, one can enjoy the Zeiss Sinaron glass with such depth  

i never understood completely what had lead sinar to make the HY6 adventure instead of going the M way further, and working here on the few shortcomings this camera has ( slow sync speed at first ). its a fantastic camera and in higher numbers i doubt it would be significant more expensive than other systems.
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rainer viertlböck
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2009, 06:54:26 PM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
For me, they last a plenty long time.  The battery in the side grip is dedicated to the camera.  An additional battery of the exact same type is used by the Sinar eMotion backs, so they are interchangeable.  When shooting on location, I only take four batteries with me (one backup each for camera and MFDB), and only in extreme cases of shooting continuously all day with only the one camera do I need to replace one of them (and usually the one in the MFDB).  When I return to the studio, I just pop them into the charger, and they are ready for the next day of shooting.

I don't shoot in extreme cold weather, so I cannot say how much that would reduce their duration under such conditions.  Remember, these batteries were originally designed for power-hungry videocams that last for 90 minutes or more of pure recording time.  When used on a still camera like the M, that translates into a lot of image captures.


Do you mean the side-grip battery is not a "compact" battery like the power-grip they made first?
Can you open the grip and change the battery inside like in the back?

Henrik
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rainer_v
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2009, 07:26:58 PM »
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Quote from: henrikfoto
Do you mean the side-grip battery is not a "compact" battery like the power-grip they made first?
Can you open the grip and change the battery inside like in the back?

Henrik
yes
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rainer viertlböck
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PeterA
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2009, 08:35:19 PM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
i never understood completely what had lead sinar to make the HY6 adventure instead of going the M way further, and working here on the few shortcomings this camera has ( slow sync speed at first ). its a fantastic camera and in higher numbers i doubt it would be significant more expensive than other systems.

Absolutely correct..also note that the Hy6 used a Rollie mount - great lenses - but again - how many lens systems did Sinar wish to support? The M system as a studio camera should have been improved - I think that F&H were the primary beneficiaries of Sinar and Leaf 'thinking' that they needed a MF system ala Hblad - sadly they delivered very late and now even sadder for people (like me) who bought..we are left with nothing except bad taste in mouth..and Sinar is left with ..maybe even less..


very very sad times - brought on by silly management decisions chasing the wrong markets. Instead of wasting time with Hy6 - they could have brought out artec and improved M stystem and stayed true to sensible thinking...

oh well we are all wiser - after the fact..I just hope that Sinar doesn nto get thrown away liek Kodak did to Leaf..and we are left with rubbish ...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 08:38:03 PM by PeterA » Logged
David Klepacki
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2009, 12:55:46 AM »
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Quote from: rainer_v
i never understood completely what had lead sinar to make the HY6 adventure instead of going the M way further, and working here on the few shortcomings this camera has ( slow sync speed at first ). its a fantastic camera and in higher numbers i doubt it would be significant more expensive than other systems.
Yes, unfortunately the Hy6 turned out to be a strategic mistake.  If Sinar really thought there was a market for 6x6 AF, they should have built a M-2 camera with square shutter and new Zeiss 6x6 AF digital lenses that could be used with either a leaf shutter or a focal plane shutter (like an AF equivalent of the Hasselblad 203 camera), similar to the concept of the Leica S2.....but with the modular concept of the M system.  If they had done that, by now it probably would be the dominant MF camera in the market, possibly preventing Leica from ever getting off the ground.  They could have also captured the large Contax 645 user market, if they had only built an AF mirror module for the M camera.

As far as faster flash sync, I believe Sinar did a good thing with the M camera by supplying a M-sync port in addition to the standard (slower) X-sync.  The M-sync port fires as soon as the shutter begins to open.  This type of sync was originally intended to trigger older flash bulbs that needed more time to reach their peak output by the time the shutter fully opens.  However, you should be able to add a custom delay circuit to this port in order to sync much faster when used with electronic strobes.

I have not yet had time to test how fast this port can actually sync when a modern electronic strobe is attached to it.  You may be able to get 1/500 out of it.  Basically, just connect your strobes to it and keep firing with faster shutter speeds until you reach one that syncs with it.  Once you know its maximum sync speed, you can use a simple timer/delay mechanism with it to control your sync speeds.
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narikin
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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2009, 07:28:49 AM »
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Quote from: David Klepacki
Yes, the P45+ uses an older chip technology from Kodak, so I believe you will see a marked improvement in the P65+ using its new Dalsa chip.  There are also some color tolerance issues with that Kodak chip in comparison to Dalsa's chips, as reported nicely by Joe Holmes on his website.  

Actually, the Dalsa chip inside the Sinar e75LV has the same dynamic range as the Dalsa chip in the P65+.  The e75LV has perhaps a bit more due to the greater signal-to-noise capability of its larger pixels.   However, this difference is so small that I think it is fair to say that both of these chips deliver about 12 f-stops of equivalent dynamic range.  

So indeed, one can enjoy the Zeiss Sinaron glass with such depth  
try as you might you are not going to convince me that every Dalsa sensors ever produced has the exact same qualities as the latest P65+ sensor, and that basically its all the same except for resolution. no - its not, anymore than Canons 1Ds 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 sensors are all basically the same as they're from the same company... things improve, technology moves forward, and that's a fact of our digital life.

however the point of this whole post is that you shouldn't have to - the M should have been an open platform, and I should be able to put whichever back I like on it - that was Sinar's mistake, and they lost a lot of sales. I doubt 100 people are working with M cameras hand held in the entire world, because of that wrong decision.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 11:14:22 AM by narikin » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2009, 08:03:41 AM »
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Actually the P65 and P40+ is more like 12.5 to 13 stops . Certainly about a 1/2 stop on a P45+ and every other Kodak sensor that I have tried and about a stop on the P25+. The biggest difference really is the color profile, they are just different. Here is a test between the P30+,P40+ and P45+. Obviously some feature differences as well.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090
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Christopher Arnoldi
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2009, 09:52:16 AM »
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I just asked an engineer from Zeiss about the image circle of the Sinaron Digital AF 2,8/80 mm ZH and he wrote me that all ZH lenses are made for cameras with image diagonal of 78 mm. Of course the image circle does not end at 78 mm.
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narikin
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2009, 11:10:25 AM »
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Quote from: Christopher Arnoldi
I just asked an engineer from Zeiss about the image circle of the Sinaron Digital AF 2,8/80 mm ZH and he wrote me that all ZH lenses are made for cameras with image diagonal of 78 mm. Of course the image circle does not end at 78 mm.
great to know you have a hotline to an engineer - please ask them to make the lenses in other fittings!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 11:11:15 AM by narikin » Logged
David Klepacki
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2009, 11:42:16 AM »
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try as you might you are not going to convince me that every Dalsa sensors ever produced has the exact same qualities as the latest P65+ sensor, and that basically its all the same except for resolution. no - its not, anymore than Canons 1Ds 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 sensors are all basically the same as they're from the same company... things improve, technology moves forward, and that's a fact of our digital life.
No, I am not trying to convince you of anything.  It just sounded like you were not happy with the lens choices that can be used with your P65+.  It is a very personal choice.  Some people decide on a back and live with whatever lenses are available to them, and others decide on their lenses and live with whatever backs are available to them.  There is no right and wrong here, just different choices for different needs and preferences.

Quote
however the point of this whole post is that you shouldn't have to - the M should have been an open platform, and I should be able to put whichever back I like on it - that was Sinar's mistake, and they lost a lot of sales. I doubt 100 people are working with M cameras hand held in the entire world, because of that wrong decision.
Regarding your plea for an open MF camera, it is unfortunately not the trend.  As you say, technology moves forward, and the technology trend is for closed camera systems, such as the Hasselblad H3D, or even the Leica S2.  The Sinar M is no less open than these cameras.
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David Klepacki
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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2009, 11:51:51 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Actually the P65 and P40+ is more like 12.5 to 13 stops . Certainly about a 1/2 stop on a P45+ and every other Kodak sensor that I have tried and about a stop on the P25+. The biggest difference really is the color profile, they are just different. Here is a test between the P30+,P40+ and P45+. Obviously some feature differences as well.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090
It is interesting that the measured data from DxO labs actually shows a maximum of 11.5 stops dynamic range for the P65+ and 11.75 stops for the P45+:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image...abase/Phase-One
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2009, 12:12:31 PM »
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David that very well could be true or not . I did not actually measure them but from a visual look the new Dalsa sensors seem to have more DR. Personally i don't have much faith in those DXO tests as some folks do. But the point being there seems to be more in the Dalsa. Just never got the chance to really test it since we had to take them on the workshop and I ran out of time.

I do have a old test with a preproduction P65+ that looked like it had more DR than the P45+ and certainly more than my P25+ at the time. Obviously C1 could also be at play here with each of the camera profiles as well. That is something I am just not sure about.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 12:15:30 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2009, 12:23:11 PM »
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David here is the test from the CI folks I just found look at the shadows which lends some clue
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