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Author Topic: Macbook Pro 13" Display - 6bit?  (Read 8113 times)
John.Murray
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« on: July 07, 2009, 04:03:42 PM »
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I'm glad i've been backordered - if this is true, I'll have to cancell.  It's too bad if true - a lovely machine otherwise

http://mantia.me/blog/macbook-pro-thousands-of-colors/
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k bennett
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 05:01:44 PM »
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I read the rant. So? It's a portable machine. Do any professionals do serious color work on portables? I don't. My MBP 15 inch is fine for a quick edit on location, but not for serious post processing.

If it makes you feel any better, read the story on Rob Galbraith's site on the new MBP displays.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 08:12:38 PM »
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Quote from: k bennett
Do any professionals do serious color work on portables? I don't. [/url].

I do, and so does the person writing the blog I posted.  There are laptops with 8-bit panels out there - I frankly expect the same givens Apple's "pro" moniker.
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Frere Jacques
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 05:47:55 AM »
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All MBPs have 6-bit screens.

http://forums.macnn.com/69/mac-notebooks/3...13-6-bit-8-bit/

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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 10:11:58 AM »
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Quote from: Frere Jacques

Yep, and the dithering works pretty well -- at least compared to other laptops that claim to be true 8-bit...  Bottom line is they're good enough for most on-the-road quick editing and web posting, but you don't want to rely on them for critical work.

However I agree, they should really change the "Millions" of colors to "Hundreds of Thousands" of colors -- and I suspect they are so quiet about it because the original law suit was settled out of court and they don't want a real class-action to start up... OTOH, maybe if we push it we'll all get a few hundred bucks back from them -- like the Epson ink refund

Cheers,
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 10:19:10 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

Gemmtech
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 11:01:41 AM »
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Quote from: Joh.Murray
I'm glad i've been backordered - if this is true, I'll have to cancell.  It's too bad if true - a lovely machine otherwise

http://mantia.me/blog/macbook-pro-thousands-of-colors/

I'm not a fan of Apple products or their support.  Think of Apple as one of the great marketing machines of this century!  I don't know much about MACs since I always build my own PCs
but I have come to realize that Apple is like the rest of America and over uses the term "Genius"  Their support staff I wouldn't even qualify as average and they are supposed to know MACs.

Their products are average at best (I have 3 IMACS and 1 MBP) not easily upgradeable and they are more over-hyped than Michael Jackson.

As far as your 13" unit, there was a thread regarding this piece and the final question is, will you actually do any color critical photo manipulation with this machine?  

Apple products are overpriced, over-hyped and not nearly as good as the PC alternatives.

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Andrew Fee
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »
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With the glass panel over the screen, I don't know how any of them other than the 17″ can be classed as pro machines at all now. It was bad enough when they were only offering glossy LCD panels before they decided to stick a sheet of glass over the top to make it even worse.
 
Since when does “oooh shiny” matter more than being able to see the screen? The fact that they're using 6-bit panels is inconsequential.

Even if it were an 8-bit panel, I'm sure that the gamut would be far too small for ‘serious’ colour work.

These days, Apple seems to be very good at backwards steps in their design:
  • They went from matte panels to glossy panels, to putting glass over the panels.
  • They went from a full width PCMCIA slot to a half-width ExpressCard34 slot (so CF adapters wouldn't fit inside any more) to an SD card slot.
  • They went from having the best portable keyboard to one where the keys at all completely flat and have gaps between them. (really horrible to type on compared to the late Powerbook/old MacBook Pro keyboards)
  • The completely removed Firewire 400 from one revision of the MacBook, though to their credit they did at least replace it with Firewire 800… but these days it should really be eSATA which is significantly faster. And of course, you can't add an eSATA connection to the machines any more because they removed the ExpressCard34 slot.
  • They went from a DVI output to DisplayPort which requires expensive adapters rather than plugging straight into a monitor. They should have moved to HDMI which can hook up to DVI displays with a cable, not an adapter, and is the standard for HDTVs. Does a DisplayPort to HDMI with Audio and HDCP adapter exist?
  • They went from a robust power connector to one that constantly falls out and suffers from fraying. (it does not protect the laptop from being pulled off a desk if someone walks into the cable, as my macbook pro will attest to) I'm about to have to get a third power brick due to the connection failing again. (and the cable for another MacBook here has stopped lighting up to indicate charging status)
  • They moved all the ports down the left-hand side of the machine, meaning that you can only use one of the two USB ports at a time if you're using a regular sized thumbdrive. (and why are there still only two USB ports in 2009‽)
  • The easily removable battery has now been replaced by one that requires you to take it in for service to get it replaced. I've been through four batteries for my MacBook Pro (all premature failures replaced under warranty) and would hate to be without my computer each time it happened rather than just getting a new battery mailed to me.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good things being done with the new machines too, but I'm looking to replace my three year old MacBook Pro and the only option is the 17″ model now! (I moved away from a 17″ Powerbook to the 15.4″ MacBook Pro because it was too bulky)

I'm now having to consider a desktop machine as none of the portables are suitable any more, and I can't see why they don't offer a tower that isn't a Mac Pro. Using regular Intel desktop chips (like the Core2Quad or Core i7s) instead of Xeons and non-ECC RAM would make them significantly cheaper at a very minimal cost in performance for most users. It's just a shame that OSX is so much better than Windows at this point. (I hate using my Vista machine for general use or image editing)
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Alex MacPherson
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 04:47:31 PM »
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It's ludicrous to think that you can do "serious color work" on a 13 inch laptop screen.

Name a 13" that is  true 8 bit ... I have never heard of one.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 04:49:27 PM by Dolce Moda Photography » Logged

Alex MacPherson

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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 05:29:20 AM »
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AFAIK none of TN panels is 8 nor 10 bit, they're all 6 bit only.
And all notebooks have TN type panels, there's no exeption to that rule. The last IPS type panel notebook was Thinkpad T60p with 15" Flexiview (1600x1200).
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John.Murray
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 01:30:46 PM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
It's ludicrous to think that you can do "serious color work" on a 13 inch laptop screen.

Name a 13" that is  true 8 bit ... I have never heard of one.

Although not 13" this one covers aRGB Gamut as well

Too bad the build quality is nowhere near the Macbook.....  More of my customers (primarilly medical / imaging) are migrating to Mac Platforms - it would be nice to have one machine supporting both...
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sergio
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 04:03:44 PM »
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Apple notebook screens are pretty lame, and their hardware too. They are nicely designed, but flaky. Definitely not for heavy use. However I live with that just so I don't have to suffer Windows anymore. I decided it was a better option to use delicate hardware with strong software than the other way around. Not all PC notebooks are strong, but my last DELL was pretty indestructible. It's just windows rendered it useless for my working environment.
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Deep
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2009, 06:42:37 AM »
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Quote from: Gemmtech
I'm not a fan of Apple products or their support.  Think of Apple as one of the great marketing machines of this century!  I don't know much about MACs since I always build my own PCs
but I have come to realize that Apple is like the rest of America and over uses the term "Genius"  Their support staff I wouldn't even qualify as average and they are supposed to know MACs.

Their products are average at best (I have 3 IMACS and 1 MBP) not easily upgradeable and they are more over-hyped than Michael Jackson.

As far as your 13" unit, there was a thread regarding this piece and the final question is, will you actually do any color critical photo manipulation with this machine?  

Apple products are overpriced, over-hyped and not nearly as good as the PC alternatives.
Funny.  You do see statements like this all over the internet from time to time and we are all entitled to an opinion.  Having used PCs since DOS days and through many incarnations of Windows (I still have a company one here), it was blessed relief to discover OSX.  The hardware has been great too but it is really secondary to the operating system.  I still chuckle when I read these blanket statements.  There is one flaw in the logic above, in the last line:  there is actually NO PC alternative to a Mac, is there?
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Don
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 01:19:47 PM »
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Quote from: Deep
Funny.  You do see statements like this all over the internet from time to time and we are all entitled to an opinion.  Having used PCs since DOS days and through many incarnations of Windows (I still have a company one here), it was blessed relief to discover OSX.  The hardware has been great too but it is really secondary to the operating system.  I still chuckle when I read these blanket statements.  There is one flaw in the logic above, in the last line:  there is actually NO PC alternative to a Mac, is there?

What's funny?  The fact that Apple charges substantially more for less than the PC alternative?  Yes, I agree, that's funny.  I must admit I was always a Wintel guy and always wondered why MACS were so much "better".  I was forced into Wintel PCs because my software wasn't ported to the MACs and the fact that I always built my own made customization simple.  Apple hardware and Apple software, well what if I have very specific needs and or wants?  PC is the only way to go.  Needless to say I decided to buy an Ipod, I thought the design was great except for the volume control and the on/off or lack thereof.  Oh well, it broke, got another, it broke, go another and bought an IPOD touch for the wife, they have been working.  Bought 3 IMACS, all 3 died, bought an MPB and gave it to my son.  Let's face the facts, if you use any type of CAD software, Mathcad, Ansys, Softplan, Autocad, 6-figure accounting software you can forget a MAC, none of the specialty software is ported to a MAC, why?  We may all hate MS and Bill Gates but the fact is Windows, Word, Excel etc. are the standards and for the most part work great.    I love the fact I can fix my own PCs with EASE, have a video card go bad in an IMAC, try to upgrade the CPU.  Have a hard drive go on an IMAC and see what happens!  You can add a stick of memory in an IMAC with ease, that's it.  Apple displays, not even close to the top of the line.  Lenovo notebooks are substantially better than MACs, but even I admit they aren't as good looking for whatever that is worth.  The MAC Pro?  I can built a much better machine for substantially less money and I can customize it any way I like.  I love SCSI hard drives, where's that as a MAC option (I know add it myself after I paid $5K for the machine and have Apple tell me "We don't support that"  What about if I need or want a high-end video card?  

You doubt that Apple is a greater marketing machine than a producer of great products?  Apple goes for the aesthetics, that's marketing 101, make it look good and make it work "Good Enough" add just enough features that they will be upset just enough that our customers will still buy our overpriced products.  The IPHONE with ATT, what a JOKE!  

So tell me, what can you do with a MAC OS that I can't do with a Windows?  I know you will say I can run all my software on a MAC, just use Parallels or Bootcamp; I'm not using the MAC OS and it's just another layer.  Most of my software only runs on a PC, there is NO MAC ALTERNATIVE, but you didn't know that, "Ignorance is Bliss"

My favorite line is "The hardware has been great too but it is really secondary to the operating system."  That's great for you, some of us need the best hardware money can buy and guess what?  It's not MAC hardware.  

I want to be able to switch batteries on my notebook, give me the MAC alternative?  Apple makes everything so that you can't upgrade it or fix it yourself.  Need a new battery?  Bring it in we'll rape you.  

I still chuckle when I read these types of moronic statements, there is a PC alternative for everything Apple makes and it goes above and beyond.  I can make any type of system that I want with a PC, you can't with a MAC.  Apple doesn't make any high-end notebooks, they don't even have a numeric keypad with their 17", they lack so many features in every single one of their notebooks it's actually pathetic.  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..... but now it all makes sense, Apple only has a single digit (7% +/-) market share. FUNNY ISN'T IT?  This isn't an opinion, it's a well known FACT, do you know the difference?  

"there is actually NO PC alternative to a Mac, is there?"  As I thought about it some more, there is in fact PC alternatives to MACs (Overpriced, Over-hyped, Hard to repair)

If a MAC gets it done for you and thats what makes you happy, then buy one.
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Deep
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 03:30:27 PM »
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Quote from: Gemmtech
I still chuckle when I read these types of moronic statements, there is a PC alternative for everything Apple makes and it goes above and beyond.  I can make any type of system that I want with a PC, you can't with a MAC.  Apple doesn't make any high-end notebooks, they don't even have a numeric keypad with their 17", they lack so many features in every single one of their notebooks it's actually pathetic.  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..... but now it all makes sense, Apple only has a single digit (7% +/-) market share. FUNNY ISN'T IT?  This isn't an opinion, it's a well known FACT, do you know the difference?  

"there is actually NO PC alternative to a Mac, is there?"  As I thought about it some more, there is in fact PC alternatives to MACs (Overpriced, Over-hyped, Hard to repair)

If a MAC gets it done for you and thats what makes you happy, then buy one.

Ordinarily, when people get all worked up like this, I ignore them because anything I say just inflames them.  But you called me a moron, tut tut.  That's not nice and technically (a moron being a person with a particular low I.Q., I forget exactly what) you may well be closer to one than I am anyway.  I'll forgive that though.

Look, you are full of anti-Mac sentiment.  Fine, don't use one.  Simple, huh?  And yes, I have a Windows laptop here that I use for GIS work but that doesn't mean I enjoy using it or even use it at all for anything I can do on my Mac.  It's brand new but it's still got a cantankerous, illogical and frustrating operating system.  It happens to be very flimsy compared to my Mac but, even if it was the other way round, I'd still be using the Mac.  I'm just too peaceful a bloke to want to get all worked up like you do!

My point remains - there is no PC alternative to a Mac, is there?  Or can you run OSX on a PC?  Oh, that's right, you can't.  I'm out of here, much more important things to do with my life, sorry.

Don.
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Don
cjmonty
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 04:36:12 PM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
It's ludicrous to think that you can do "serious color work" on a 13 inch laptop screen.

1.  Dolce Moda is right about the 13" issue.  A small laptop is a small laptop.  If you want to do really critical work on it, buy yourself a monitor.

2.  The Mac-hating going on in this thread is silly, unsubstantiated venom.  

3.  Given point number 1, perhaps having an easy to clean glass screen for your portable is just one of many of those real-world trade-offs that happen.  In a perfect world you would have a choice between glossy and matte, but oh well.  Sony Viao doesnt offer you a glass option, and heavy users usually prefer it to the delicate plastic matte lcd.  

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Gemmtech
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 05:26:31 PM »
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Quote from: Deep
Ordinarily, when people get all worked up like this, I ignore them because anything I say just inflames them.  But you called me a moron, tut tut.  That's not nice and technically (a moron being a person with a particular low I.Q., I forget exactly what) you may well be closer to one than I am anyway.  I'll forgive that though.

Look, you are full of anti-Mac sentiment.  Fine, don't use one.  Simple, huh?  And yes, I have a Windows laptop here that I use for GIS work but that doesn't mean I enjoy using it or even use it at all for anything I can do on my Mac.  It's brand new but it's still got a cantankerous, illogical and frustrating operating system.  It happens to be very flimsy compared to my Mac but, even if it was the other way round, I'd still be using the Mac.  I'm just too peaceful a bloke to want to get all worked up like you do!

My point remains - there is no PC alternative to a Mac, is there?  Or can you run OSX on a PC?  Oh, that's right, you can't.  I'm out of here, much more important things to do with my life, sorry.

Don.

Worked up?  lol  You think I'm worked up because I read a moronic statement?  Making a moronic statement does not make one a moron, does it?  I'm not anti-mac, as I stated if it works for you I think you should use it.  I believe that Apple is more a marketing company than a manufacturing company, and the mere fact that they don't actually manufacture anything probably means that's accurate.  Truth be told I always wanted to use a MAC because I heard such high praise, but MACs simply can't run my main software and I just had bad luck with them, let's call it bad Karma.  Hell, I was even shocked to find out that Quicken isn't Quicken when comparing the PC and MAC versions.  Are you sure your laptop has a cantankerous (Not a good use of the word, but that's another issue) illogical and frustrating operating system?  Or could it be crapware, lousy hardware or a combination of both?  There's no point in having a MAC OS run on a PC is there?  Then I can't use my software, that would seem to defeat the purpose wouldn't it?  What software is ported exclusively for a MAC that is a world beater?  

The biggest problem with the Windows operating system is how much people want it to do.  The operating system itself is just as stable as MAC OS, and I guarantee that windows machines have a lot more software loaded on it than MAC machines and that's just because most software is written for PCs, how many games are run on MACs?  I have a PC with at least 100 programs on it including beta and the damn thing has been running non-stop for 7 years, no reformats, no hard drive deaths, etc.  it just runs.  I have been building my own systems for 11 years and that's why I'm so spoiled, MACs are very limited.

Mac Laptops, beautiful to look at, certainly not the best,  not even close, screens are average, CPUs are not the latest and greatest nor is the video and they lack a lot of features other companys include.  

"My point remains - there is no PC alternative to a Mac, is there?  Or can you run OSX on a PC?  Oh, that's right, you can't. "
 

So your main point is I can't build a PC and run the MAC OS on it?  That's your MAC alternative that's very important?  That's the one issue?  OK, you are right.  Is there a MAC alternative to a PC that runs any CAD program?  Remember ignorance is bliss, don't say Parallels or Bootcamp.  There's no reason for me to use the MAC OS simply because I can do more with a Wintel machine and it's faster.  There is no MAC alternative to a PC that is running Autocad, Softplan, Mathcad, Ansys etc.  

What program is ported to MAC that isn't to a PC?  Any worthwhile programs that don't have a PC cousin?

I'm not anti-MAC, I'm just not one of the Sheeple on either side, I use what works best and in some cases the only thing that works is a PC.




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cjmonty
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 06:51:10 PM »
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Oye ve

mr. or ms. Gemmtech, this is not a mac vs pc site, nor a mac vs pc forum, nor a mac vs pc post.  So I would ask you, respectfully, to shut it.  

As for the 13" screens, I would be interested if anyone had some
recommendations for a better screen out there- I would be interested in doing a comparison with the 13" MacBook pro I will probably get.  
I have no doubt that there are manufacturers who put higher gamut 13" LCDs on their laptops than the new mac offerings.
That is the perennial problem with working with a fairly conservative system like the Mac- there always going to be some pc  hardware hacker out there who is going to assemble a holier than thou latest greatest gaming ready pc beast.
The point is whether the trade offs on both side are worth it.
In this case, I'm interested to hear how widely the LCD panels differ in quality.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 07:05:03 PM »
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Quote from: cjmonty
Oye ve

mr. or ms. Gemmtech, this is not a mac vs pc site, nor a mac vs pc forum, nor a mac vs pc post.  So I would ask you, respectfully, to shut it.  

As for the 13" screens, I would be interested if anyone had some
recommendations for a better screen out there- I would be interested in doing a comparison with the 13" MacBook pro I will probably get.  
I have no doubt that there are manufacturers who put higher gamut 13" LCDs on their laptops than the new mac offerings.
That is the perennial problem with working with a fairly conservative system like the Mac- there always going to be some pc  hardware hacker out there who is going to assemble a holier than thou latest greatest gaming ready pc beast.
The point is whether the trade offs on both side are worth it.
In this case, I'm interested to hear how widely the LCD panels differ in quality.


My parents passed away and I don't believe I was adopted by another set, so pleeeeeeeeeeeeease don't even make a suggestion to tell me to "Shut it"  It's a simple discussion and if you don't want to participate then don't.  If you don't like what I wrote then don't read it, don't respond.  

If you want a better screen than a MBP, look at Sony, Lenovo or HP any of those companies will give you better specs.  Though I will concede that each of those 3 listed also make notebooks that are substantially more expensive than Apples; as "they" say, you get what you pay for!

Unless you are willing to do the leg work for yourself you will never know.  Your eyes are different than your neighbors.  Go and look at them all, the specs are easy to read so that's a no-brainer.  Your 20 is listed as NYC walk into BH Photo they have everything there.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:09:49 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
cjmonty
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2009, 07:34:57 PM »
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Quote from: Gemmtech
My parents passed away and I don't believe I was adopted by another set, so pleeeeeeeeeeeeease don't even make a suggestion to tell me to "Shut it"  It's a simple discussion and if you don't want to participate then don't.  If you don't like what I wrote then don't read it, don't respond.

I apologize, "shut it" was rude.  My only defense is that the post was starting to look like any number of PCvsFanboi invective-filed back-and-forths, the kind you always see on tech blogs.

I would love to know which Sony models you know of have the better screens, and why, but Ill do a little research on their websites besides.  As we all know though, manufacturer's websites are vague and misleading about the actual tech, especially monitors, which is why I'm checking out this forum.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 08:05:10 PM »
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Quote from: cjmonty
I apologize, "shut it" was rude.  My only defense is that the post was starting to look like any number of PCvsFanboi invective-filed back-and-forths, the kind you always see on tech blogs.

I would love to know which Sony models you know of have the better screens, and why, but Ill do a little research on their websites besides.  As we all know though, manufacturer's websites are vague and misleading about the actual tech, especially monitors, which is why I'm checking out this forum.

I wouldn't have spent many thousands of dollars on MAC products if I didn't think they were going to be great, just call me disappointed.  I did realize that MACs wouldn't run my main software, but I wanted them for simpler tasks, I love the design of the IMAC and felt it would do what I wanted and would last a very long time without any problems.  Naturally I wasn't thrilled about having to buy a 2nd copy of Photoshop or office so I didn't.  My wife uses her 24" IMAC for email and recipes and a kitchen machine.  What I discovered about MACs is that they aren't easy to upgrade or repair.  


Unfortunately (I'll explain later) I find Sony screens to be one of the best across the board, even their VERY OVERPRICED LCD TVs are the best at that level (I own a Runco plasma and it's true TOTL).   If you want to spend more money than a MAC for a really great notebook then I'd recommend an HP Elite (Their business line) or the Sonys.  I believe that even the HDX series from HP has a much better screen than a MBP, I own a HDX16 and HDX18.  I also believe that the Lenovo is a better screen, their W series.  At least to my eyes and I've had them all sitting side by side.  

I do agree with a post from another thread, I don't even do color critical work on my 18" laptops; but everybody is different.  If you use a T221 and then you look at a notebook (any notebook pick one) it looks TERRIBLE.  And for that matter the high end LCDs or a good CRT will yield a much better LCD.  

You are correct, most manufactures specs leave something to be desired, especially battery life.  The problem with LCDs is they aren't as consistent as I would like, especially bleed through.
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