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Author Topic: stereoscopy with DB for IMAX  (Read 2989 times)
zivorad
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« on: July 08, 2009, 08:52:15 AM »
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Hello, I was hoping that someone could point me I rite direction…

I am doing some stereoscopic time laps photography for 3d IMAX project and instead of going with film based timelaps system (x2) I am willing to experiment and make a rig out of 2x hasselblad 555 and 40Cfi and 100cf and 2 digital backs. I used numerous backs over the years but I never try to do any stereoscopy with them and now am facing bunch of problems and my biggest one is about software. I need to trigger 2 backs at the same time from computer… is there any software that will allow me to do so? I would prefer to use phase one backs but at this point am open to any other solution. Pleas can you advice me on this subject and help me by pointing me in rite direction.
I rely appreciate your help.
Regards
Luka
l.sanader@jujufilms.ca
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 09:00:24 AM »
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Time lapse? You mean you will make a series of shots every 10 seconds or some other time interval? And the software will need to be capable of triggering a sequence like this?
Will the subjects be moving, i.e. how essential is synchronisation?
Won't you need to trigger the camera rather than the back? I think you can trigger a Hy6 from the software, but I don't know about triggering two simultaneously or triggering a whole sequence. You could always build a simple timer circuit with dual solenoids which operate an electronic camera release. Then you can use various cameras such as Rollei 6008 which have the electronic release port.
Btw, I just shot some stereo images using my Rollei and e54, so this is all fresh in my mind
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 09:30:58 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Hello, I was hoping that someone could point me I rite direction…

I am doing some stereoscopic time laps photography for 3d IMAX project and instead of going with film based timelaps system (x2) I am willing to experiment and make a rig out of 2x hasselblad 555 and 40Cfi and 100cf and 2 digital backs. I used numerous backs over the years but I never try to do any stereoscopy with them and now am facing bunch of problems and my biggest one is about software. I need to trigger 2 backs at the same time from computer… is there any software that will allow me to do so? I would prefer to use phase one backs but at this point am open to any other solution. Pleas can you advice me on this subject and help me by pointing me in rite direction.
I rely appreciate your help.
Regards
Luka
l.sanader@jujufilms.ca

What you need is a good dealer that will help you create a solution exactly catered to your needs. We've helped several clients over the years with especially difficult-to-implement custom rigs. We also have experience specifically in the world of time-lapse.

If you contact us offline we'd be happy to estimate out several different solutions.

Doug

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:32:50 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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Joe Behar
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 09:39:04 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Hello, I was hoping that someone could point me I rite direction…

I am doing some stereoscopic time laps photography for 3d IMAX project and instead of going with film based timelaps system (x2) I am willing to experiment and make a rig out of 2x hasselblad 555 and 40Cfi and 100cf and 2 digital backs. I used numerous backs over the years but I never try to do any stereoscopy with them and now am facing bunch of problems and my biggest one is about software. I need to trigger 2 backs at the same time from computer… is there any software that will allow me to do so? I would prefer to use phase one backs but at this point am open to any other solution. Pleas can you advice me on this subject and help me by pointing me in rite direction.
I rely appreciate your help.
Regards
Luka
l.sanader@jujufilms.ca

Luka,

You can contact me offline and I would be happy to help.

We're located in Toronto, but I can certainly make the trip to you if needed.

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zivorad
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 09:40:10 AM »
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Thanks for quick reply. That is one of the options: use standard timelaps generator a.k.a intervalometer and build a “Y” cable with hassselblad triggers… in that fashion I could trigger 2 cameras at the same time without a difference what is in the back CFV or A12 mag… that works
but… if I would to use computer with FlaxColor for example; I would have 2 problems:
a) can I control 2 cameras/backs via 2 firewire ports?
 can I program Flex or Capture for any sort of interval shooting?  

I would like to use one computer as a platform for this mainly because storing and multiply controls and organizing files. 1 second is 24 frames and one of timelapse’s is 30 sec, 720 frames for left and 720 for right eye… I think that I am facing approximately 12 000 frames in total… just a thinking of CF cards is giving me a headache.

Am would like to see that stereo e54!

Thanks
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 10:07:17 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Thanks for quick reply. That is one of the options: use standard timelaps generator a.k.a intervalometer and build a “Y” cable with hassselblad triggers… in that fashion I could trigger 2 cameras at the same time without a difference what is in the back CFV or A12 mag… that works
but… if I would to use computer with FlaxColor for example; I would have 2 problems:
a) can I control 2 cameras/backs via 2 firewire ports?
 can I program Flex or Capture for any sort of interval shooting?  

I would like to use one computer as a platform for this mainly because storing and multiply controls and organizing files. 1 second is 24 frames and one of timelapse’s is 30 sec, 720 frames for left and 720 for right eye… I think that I am facing approximately 12 000 frames in total… just a thinking of CF cards is giving me a headache.

Am would like to see that stereo e54!

Thanks

Agreed. You must have computer based control/storage of the images. You also need the computers to provide the firewire power so that you don't loose battery power halfway through a session.

On certain platforms you could write a simple AppleScript (or work with a dealer like us that would write it for you) to tell capture one to trigger both systems based on the computers internal clock which could be made accurate within a very tight tolerance. For electronic platforms like an AFD2 or AFD3 the AppleScript could also control shutter speed to allow you to do two exposures several stops apart (e.g.  1-sec-exposure, 4-sec-exposure, wait 30 seconds, 1-sec-exposure, 4-sec-exposure, wait 30 seconds...).

Leaf shutter lenses will produce less shake and therefore better frame-to-frame registration in theory, however, in my experience a focal plane shutter will not be an issue given a sufficiently heavy tripod, which is highly advisable in any case because of other registration concerns (e.g. wind). Video-Tool-Based image stabilization routines in post will eliminate shot-to-shot registration issues provided each frame is sharp and sufficiently high enough in resolution.

A manual-stop-down lens would be helpful in reducing the part of shot-to-shot flicker induced by aperture-size-variation (though flicker cannot be 100% avoided at capture and must be addressed in post regardless). Such variation will still exist do to shutter speed variation (present in any form of shutter control - even electronic).

Or the intervelometer (e.g. The Time Machine Intervelometer) could be used to trigger both bodies.

Actually, come to think of it, an electronic shutter on a tech camera might eliminate several issue (though creating others such as maximum shutter speed). These systems have exceptional shot-to-shot consistency of actual shutter speed and actual aperture size. It would also be worth testing two H-bodies side-by-side to see how well the built-in intervelometer stays in sync between two bodies. My guess is that it would in fact hold up in time-registration quite well for several hours; however, it would need to be tested.

Like I said; you have many options. Let us know if you'd like a partner in working through them (and doing real world testing).

Doug

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 10:19:40 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 10:13:21 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Thanks for quick reply. That is one of the options: use standard timelaps generator a.k.a intervalometer and build a “Y” cable with hassselblad triggers… in that fashion I could trigger 2 cameras at the same time without a difference what is in the back CFV or A12 mag… that works

You never said whether you are shooting action but this solution is probably not synchronized enough for action. Shutter differences can be times and an average calculated, but the deviation from that average becomes an issue with action. (Even slight timing differences can ruin stereo image).
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paul_jones
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 09:39:12 PM »
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i think 2 x canons(5dmk2s or 1dsmk3s) and two laptops if tethered, but cant see the problem with shooting to card on both cameras, starting a matching numbering/ time system. its a handfull using one medium format back, so dealing with two will do your head in. that number of shots arent too hard to deal with.

the dslrs batteries will last for a couple of days, very little camera shake, screens that you can actually see what you are doing, and i guess you could split a canon timer to trigger both at the same time- those timers are very good and easy to use. all the time lapse guys i know use canons(or nikon) and the plug in timers. running a computer for that much time can be a little problematic as well.

as for quality, the canon files will have many times higher resolution than 35mm neg film (that the imax uses) and more dynamic range, especially in the darks.

paul
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billy
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 11:28:48 PM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
as for quality, the canon files will have many times higher resolution than 35mm neg film (that the imax uses) and more dynamic range, especially in the darks.

paul


Is this true? I always thought it was opposite; color neg film 15 stops and best digi is 12-13 stops, approximately.
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 12:06:12 AM »
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Quote from: billy
Is this true? I always thought it was opposite; color neg film 15 stops and best digi is 12-13 stops, approximately.

im just talking about my drum scanned negs of yester year, when i study them, its bloody miles away from what i can get out my raw digital files. negs get very grainy as well.

thats just my experience. ive found the same thing with all my old trannys, and ive been comparing them closely with recent digital files as im throwing them into stock. all my files got scanned at the best drum scanner place in new zealand (a few years ago).

but maybe you have information that i havnt seen?

paul
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James R Russell
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 01:05:43 AM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
im just talking about my drum scanned negs of yester year, when i study them, its bloody miles away from what i can get out my raw digital files. negs get very grainy as well.

thats just my experience. ive found the same thing with all my old trannys, and ive been comparing them closely with recent digital files as im throwing them into stock. all my files got scanned at the best drum scanner place in new zealand (a few years ago).

but maybe you have information that i havnt seen?

paul


Paul's right.

Look at this link from Corpse's Bride, Tim Burton's animated movie, shot with 12 1dMarkII's (at the time 8mpx) downsampled to 2k files.

http://www.stopmotionworks.com/articles/cbrdstrpdbare.htm

JR
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 01:25:23 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Hello, I was hoping that someone could point me I rite direction…

I am doing some stereoscopic time laps photography for 3d IMAX project and instead of going with film based timelaps system (x2) I am willing to experiment and make a rig out of 2x hasselblad 555 and 40Cfi and 100cf and 2 digital backs. I used numerous backs over the years but I never try to do any stereoscopy with them and now am facing bunch of problems and my biggest one is about software. I need to trigger 2 backs at the same time from computer… is there any software that will allow me to do so? I would prefer to use phase one backs but at this point am open to any other solution. Pleas can you advice me on this subject and help me by pointing me in rite direction.
I rely appreciate your help.
Regards
Luka
l.sanader@jujufilms.ca


Luka,

just wondering why you need to go up to MFDB for this work? Won't the sheer amount of data you are creating pose it's own problems even for the best and fastest computer systems?

Would 2  x 5dmk2s do the trick and still produce resolution that will require downsampling even for imax?

Are you looking to perform sever panning zooms or something like that?

Murray
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zivorad
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 08:17:21 AM »
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Hello all and thanks for the help and interest in this tread…

Why not Canon?
There are 2 main reasons.

a) Inter ocular distance is too big. To explain; for stereoscopy, ideal distance would be a natural distance eye’s. Building a mount is problematic and one camera has to be up side down… but whit all that gymnastic it is not enough…
 Lens problem. Canon lenses are not suitable for this application… photo lenses in general are hard to mach and building lens sets is bigger task than it looks on the first sight. So in the motion picture photography that is the issue.  In this case it is essential to have lenses that are calibrated together so focus is in the same distance range- racked. Also difference in aperture can be huge problem… Stock Hasselblad lenses are far from being made for the job but thy can be collimated and calibrated to work together….

IMAX issue:
Imax is not 35mm; it is 70mm and stock is run horizontally through the cameras so frame is 15 perforations long. That is giving image aria of 69.6 mm wide and 48.5 mm tall…. Full scan of one frame is more like 100 Mix….

I don’t want to insult canon; personally I think it is a good tool (I just got 5d mkII) bun not for this type of application.  It would be ideal if I could swing this on a rig that is under 8K usd, but unfortunately we will have to wait for Canon Mk IV or MkV for this…

Thanks

Luka
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zivorad
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 08:35:30 AM »
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Sorry I forgot to answer about content… We are planning to do some limited motion control work with this gear. There aren’t plans for using this in action but you never know… also one of the time lapses will be shoot from moving platform… after we finish a first batch in September it will become clear how we are going to use this rig in the. This is just the test for now and if everything is flying I think that we will fined more application for this rig during principal photography of the film…
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 12:28:51 AM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Hello all and thanks for the help and interest in this tread…

Why not Canon?
There are 2 main reasons.

a) Inter ocular distance is too big. To explain; for stereoscopy, ideal distance would be a natural distance eye’s. Building a mount is problematic and one camera has to be up side down… but whit all that gymnastic it is not enough…
 Lens problem. Canon lenses are not suitable for this application… photo lenses in general are hard to mach and building lens sets is bigger task than it looks on the first sight. So in the motion picture photography that is the issue.  In this case it is essential to have lenses that are calibrated together so focus is in the same distance range- racked. Also difference in aperture can be huge problem… Stock Hasselblad lenses are far from being made for the job but thy can be collimated and calibrated to work together….

IMAX issue:
Imax is not 35mm; it is 70mm and stock is run horizontally through the cameras so frame is 15 perforations long. That is giving image aria of 69.6 mm wide and 48.5 mm tall…. Full scan of one frame is more like 100 Mix….

I don’t want to insult canon; personally I think it is a good tool (I just got 5d mkII) bun not for this type of application.  It would be ideal if I could swing this on a rig that is under 8K usd, but unfortunately we will have to wait for Canon Mk IV or MkV for this…

Thanks

Luka

i thought imax was 35mm run sideways, like a std 35mm stills camera, i didn't realize it was 700 film! they must use some serious amount of film. i see now why you are shooting with a back.

paul
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zivorad
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 09:16:10 AM »
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Hi Paul, that format is called Vista Vision and it is horizontal running 35mm exact the same as Leica format. That format is not in use any more and in a first place it was developed as special effect format in ‘60s… yes it is a lot of film! Because of the size and speed of the film running thru the gate Kodak needed to develop new base that is capable of handling the pressure.
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 12:05:12 PM »
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Quote from: zivorad
Hi Paul, that format is called Vista Vision and it is horizontal running 35mm exact the same as Leica format. That format is not in use any more and in a first place it was developed as special effect format in ‘60s… yes it is a lot of film! Because of the size and speed of the film running thru the gate Kodak needed to develop new base that is capable of handling the pressure.

Fantastic!
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