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Author Topic: Hasselblad point of view/BJP  (Read 8678 times)
antonyoung
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 08:17:16 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
My prediction: Sinar will fail; Leica might fail; Hasselblad and Phase will limp along for another three-five years in some form, and then Canon, Nikon, Sony, Red become the new players. I am honestly surprised that Apple has not introduced their own model of camera; who knows, maybe the iPhone will evolve. (Hint: the secret is video/combo; not megapixels/stills).

I bought a 5D2 over the weekend. My jaw dropped. Yes, it's a toy in some ways, and it's First Generation for the video, but give Canon another generation, and for $2700, it's going to make even a $30k Hasselblad or Phase look like an Edsel. The feature set in a 5D2 is just mindblowing, and ease of use is off the charts. And this, spoken by a guy that hates 35 and loves medium format. But anyone would be a fool to not see what's going on around them. 35 is to MF, what Digital was to E6. The train is coming down the tracks.

While we're speculating, I'm predicting both Sinar and Leica fail within a year, Hasselblad and Phase within two, three at the outside. And I'll go further (and completely against the internet hype) and predict RED failure shortly after Canon decides to put a full frame chip in a proper motion camera chassis.
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DesW
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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2009, 08:53:20 PM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
While we're speculating, I'm predicting both Sinar and Leica fail within a year, Hasselblad and Phase within two, three at the outside. And I'll go further (and completely against the internet hype) and predict RED failure shortly after Canon decides to put a full frame chip in a proper motion camera chassis.

Anton, While I may concur on the  current Manufactures you name as to their longevity I would question your predicted "Demise" of the RED venture.

If you only knew what was coming from them--

Stay tuned

Des W

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bradleygibson
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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 09:36:01 PM »
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Agreed 100% Doug.

I'm not sure if folks understand the expense and risk involved in processing another manufacturer's proprietary file format.  It's frought with both technical and even legal danger.

Further, any solution is fragile.  Should the originating company decide that they don't like having their file processed by another company, it is a small matter to tweak the format in such a way as to break support in other applications.

On top of all this, it is not enough to simply crack and render a file--photographers expect faithful and pleasing colors (actually an oxymoron), accurate skin tones, white balance processing.  In short--great out-of-the-box color.  This is very difficult and expensive to do under a wide variety of light sources.

So all in all--yes, I love having a 'jack-of-all-trades' tool in the form of Lightroom as much as the next guy.  But in almost every case, to get the most quality out of your image files, you need to use the manufacturer's raw processing.  I think it is odd to consider a Phase system to be closed simply because Phase's Capture One software does not process .FFF or .3FR files...  Huh?

I understand why Hasselblad has chosen to go the way they have.  I might have chosen differently if I'd been at the helm, but from the perspective of a customer, I don't like it.  In the end though, it's their decision to make, and something for customers and potential to keep in mind as they make purchase decisions going forward.

Hasselblad's recent decision to bring the V-system into the modern era with the CFV-39 seems to represent a thawing of the adopt-H-or-die mentality of the recent past.  I for one, welcome the choice.

-Brad

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Mr. Poulsen, a good and honest guy from everything I know about him, defines 'open' and 'closed' very differently than I do. Here are my definitions:
 - 'Closed' systems are designed to actively/purposefully prevent compatibility
 - 'Open' systems don't restrict compatibility and provide reasonable methods for others to participate

Does keeping a system open prevent simple and reliable operation? I think that is a marketing myth. As evidence: Capture One is used for a majority of Canon/Nikon tethered shoots.

Closed - Hasselblad took the H2 body, added firmware code that prevents it's operation unless a Hasslelblad back was attached, and called it the H2F. There was no technical reason to do this; they actively/purposefully prevented compatibility.

Open - Capture One is open and directly supports almost all dSLRs, all Phase backs, and the Mamiya ZD. They also provide reasonable methods for other companies to participate by providing DNG reading/writing support as well as Hot Folder support. These compatibility features allow tethering of cameras other than Canon/Nikon/Phase and adjustment/editing/organization/processing of any other camera maker.

Doug Peterson
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2009, 09:52:12 PM »
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The RED discussion is fascinating.  If they deliver on their promises, in a reasonable timeframe and address some of the 'open issues' (AF support, flash sync, startup time, system weight, etc.)  I have no doubt RED could be the new dominant player of a significantly revitalized MF industry in several years' time.

Canon & Nikon seem like a coin flip to me; Nikon more likely than Canon, but these guys may produce more cameras on just their entry level production line in a week than the entire MF industry sells in a year.  Even with crazy gross profit margins, it's hard for me to see such a low-volume market being worth their while.  Should a competitor like RED be successful and grow the pie, proving to that there is a market beyond the DnX/1Ds Mark n, things may change.

As for Leica, they do have grand ambitions.  With specs like RED's, I wonder if the S2 will be the last of the 'old generation' MF designs, with a mirror box, no video, and all the other limitations we've grown used to over the past century or so.  If they are not price competitive (and they're not exactly known for that), It's hard to see how they will be successful.  Those lenses look crazy good.  But how many will sell if they're 3-4x the price of an HC or Phamiya D lens?

My painful wait for Phase on Hy6 (which at the time, appeard to be 'just a matter of time') taught me the hard way not to count on anything that's not already shipping.  Let RED slip a just a few months, and we're into 2011 for some of their EPIC MF cameras.  Give them time to work out bugs/develop all the accessories (AF lenses, 3rd party adapters, or whatever they plan to do) and my guess is you're into the back end of 2011 or 2012.  (Of course, Scarlet will come sooner.)  For me, they're interesting, but not that relevant until (and unless) they actually begin to ship.

AND people buy them.

Time will tell.  (Maybe I'll even be one of them...  But not today.)
-Brad

Quote from: DesW
Anton, While I may concur on the  current Manufactures you name as to their longevity I would question your predicted "Demise" of the RED venture.

If you only knew what was coming from them--

Stay tuned

Des W
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:56:23 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

hcubell
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 10:08:30 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Mr. Poulsen, a good and honest guy from everything I know about him, defines 'open' and 'closed' very differently than I do. Here are my definitions:
 - 'Closed' systems are designed to actively/purposefully prevent compatibility
 - 'Open' systems don't restrict compatibility and provide reasonable methods for others to participate

Does keeping a system open prevent simple and reliable operation? I think that is a marketing myth. As evidence: Capture One is used for a majority of Canon/Nikon tethered shoots.

Closed - Hasselblad took the H2 body, added firmware code that prevents it's operation unless a Hasslelblad back was attached, and called it the H2F. There was no technical reason to do this; they actively/purposefully prevented compatibility.

Open - Capture One is open and directly supports almost all dSLRs, all Phase backs, and the Mamiya ZD. They also provide reasonable methods for other companies to participate by providing DNG reading/writing support as well as Hot Folder support. These compatibility features allow tethering of cameras other than Canon/Nikon/Phase and adjustment/editing/organization/processing of any other camera maker.

Doug Peterson
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer

Mr. Poulsen may or may not be a "good and honest guy". That's irrelevant. The fact is that in an interview that was apparently unscripted(I thought most of us prefer such interviews), he told us how he really felt.  He called a spade a spade. To me, it's perfectly okay that Phase has exploited the historical advantage that Capture One gave its digital backs by not "opening" it up to its competitors' digital backs. (And boy, have their dealers over the years played that card.) For how many years did Hasselblad have to compete on an uneven playing field by trying to sell digital backs to potential customers who were limited to the kludge known as Flexcolor, while at the same time Phase dealers were busy packaging their backs with H2 cameras? Please don't try to pretend that it's some sort of celestial coincidence that Hasselblad/Leaf/Sinar files are not natively read by Capture One. I can deal with tough competition. It's the hypocrisy that is sickening. The same sort of hypocrisy I see when the head of Phase runs off about not announcing products before they are ready to ship, and then the Phase proxies get out the word about new camera bodies, new lenses, new this and that.  Phase was happy running off to the bank with high profit margins on its digital backs while all of the camera makers were exiting stage right into oblivion. Phase's CEO has not done his own interview running Hasselblad down, but he surely hasn't felt the necessity. His proxies have been doing it regularly here and in other forums on a non-stop basis. I don't think the same has been true of the Hasselblad reps who come here to participate. Time to move on for Phase and make a first class camera body that's worthy of its backs and can compete with Canon and Nikon. They have a lot of work to do given what they are starting with. Too bad they missed the boat with Contax.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 10:23:49 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
It's very interessting that Mr. Poulsen has a lot to say about Phase and actually has nothing to say about Hasselblad.
Reminds me of the "10 Golden Rules" in Marketing:
- if you are number 1, don't talk about the competition
- if you are number 2, attack number 1 offensively

Exactly...


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nad54
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2009, 02:28:38 AM »
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Ladies and Gentlemen

Can I just add a few small notes to maybe put the debate about open or closed systems in perspective. For those of us old enough to remember (and still shoot) film there never was a possibility of openness in MF systems. If you bought a Hasselblad you used their film backs, lenses etc. You could go down the Pentax route, the Bronica route or the Mamiya route. But things only worked on that manufacturers systems.

Much is made of PhaseOne's open system but it actually doesn't really make business sense. If you make a great camera system why would you want competitors accessing it unless they were paying you lots and lots of money. PhaseOne, Hasselblad and others in business. People say they want competition but really a company is in business to make money for it's shareholders. It's not there to be 'fair'. I know it sucks but that is capitalism!

THe only really open system is the Hasselblad CF system with changeable adaptor plates. Now I for one expect that to be stopped at any point. That's why I wouldn't consider looking at it. But think about it. That is a digital back system that you could use with different camera systems.

Now I use, reasonably successfully a P25 on the Hasselblad V system. For my landscape work it is not as good as film but for a lot of stuff it is pretty good. I just found out that I can use it on my Arcbody and it works really well. I tried the Phaseamiya (with a P45+) the back is great, the camera is a dog and is laughable at the price PhaseOne charge for it. I looked at the Hasselblad H system when it first came out and didn't like it.

The position of being able to put a different manufacturers digital back on your legacy equipment was an anomaly that arose because Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya et al didn't have the finances/know how or foresight to develop their own bespoke digital solutions. They had to encourage 'partners'.

THe market is just realigning it self along normal business models.

I don't necessarily like it but that's life.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 09:19:18 PM »
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But Phase makes digital film and markets a camera system.... 20 years ago you could use the same film in a lot of different MF cameras...



Quote from: nad54
Ladies and Gentlemen

Can I just add a few small notes to maybe put the debate about open or closed systems in perspective. For those of us old enough to remember (and still shoot) film there never was a possibility of openness in MF systems. If you bought a Hasselblad you used their film backs, lenses etc. You could go down the Pentax route, the Bronica route or the Mamiya route. But things only worked on that manufacturers systems.

Much is made of PhaseOne's open system but it actually doesn't really make business sense. If you make a great camera system why would you want competitors accessing it unless they were paying you lots and lots of money. PhaseOne, Hasselblad and others in business. People say they want competition but really a company is in business to make money for it's shareholders. It's not there to be 'fair'. I know it sucks but that is capitalism!

THe only really open system is the Hasselblad CF system with changeable adaptor plates. Now I for one expect that to be stopped at any point. That's why I wouldn't consider looking at it. But think about it. That is a digital back system that you could use with different camera systems.

Now I use, reasonably successfully a P25 on the Hasselblad V system. For my landscape work it is not as good as film but for a lot of stuff it is pretty good. I just found out that I can use it on my Arcbody and it works really well. I tried the Phaseamiya (with a P45+) the back is great, the camera is a dog and is laughable at the price PhaseOne charge for it. I looked at the Hasselblad H system when it first came out and didn't like it.

The position of being able to put a different manufacturers digital back on your legacy equipment was an anomaly that arose because Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya et al didn't have the finances/know how or foresight to develop their own bespoke digital solutions. They had to encourage 'partners'.

THe market is just realigning it self along normal business models.

I don't necessarily like it but that's life.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 09:19:48 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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antonyoung
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 10:48:27 PM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
But Phase makes digital film and markets a camera system.... 20 years ago you could use the same film in a lot of different MF cameras...

This is a tired and overused analogy. Phase makes digital backs, not digital film. The digital equivalent of film is the CF or SD cards. You can buy lots of different brands of this digital film and use them in any back or camera. There are more CF brands than there ever were types of film. You know have more choice, not less- in the film days you could never buy a different brand of film back and put it on your camera (or could you put a Kiev back on a Hasselblad? I know some of the stuff was interchangeable, right?). But anyhow, the film camera analogies are so tiresome, and 20 years ago was... 20 years ago.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 10:49:03 PM by antonyoung » Logged
nad54
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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2009, 02:40:57 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
This is a tired and overused analogy. Phase makes digital backs, not digital film. The digital equivalent of film is the CF or SD cards. You can buy lots of different brands of this digital film and use them in any back or camera. There are more CF brands than there ever were types of film. You know have more choice, not less- in the film days you could never buy a different brand of film back and put it on your camera (or could you put a Kiev back on a Hasselblad? I know some of the stuff was interchangeable, right?). But anyhow, the film camera analogies are so tiresome, and 20 years ago was... 20 years ago.


"The digital equivalent of film is the CF or SD cards" - not quite sure how the choice affects the image. I don't understand what you are trying to say. The data is the 'film' not the means of storage.
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paul_jones
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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2009, 04:02:47 AM »
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Quote from: bradleygibson
The RED discussion is fascinating.  If they deliver on their promises, in a reasonable timeframe and address some of the 'open issues' (AF support, flash sync, startup time, system weight, etc.)  I have no doubt RED could be the new dominant player of a significantly revitalized MF industry in several years' time.

Canon & Nikon seem like a coin flip to me; Nikon more likely than Canon, but these guys may produce more cameras on just their entry level production line in a week than the entire MF industry sells in a year.  Even with crazy gross profit margins, it's hard for me to see such a low-volume market being worth their while.  Should a competitor like RED be successful and grow the pie, proving to that there is a market beyond the DnX/1Ds Mark n, things may change.

As for Leica, they do have grand ambitions.  With specs like RED's, I wonder if the S2 will be the last of the 'old generation' MF designs, with a mirror box, no video, and all the other limitations we've grown used to over the past century or so.  If they are not price competitive (and they're not exactly known for that), It's hard to see how they will be successful.  Those lenses look crazy good.  But how many will sell if they're 3-4x the price of an HC or Phamiya D lens?

My painful wait for Phase on Hy6 (which at the time, appeard to be 'just a matter of time') taught me the hard way not to count on anything that's not already shipping.  Let RED slip a just a few months, and we're into 2011 for some of their EPIC MF cameras.  Give them time to work out bugs/develop all the accessories (AF lenses, 3rd party adapters, or whatever they plan to do) and my guess is you're into the back end of 2011 or 2012.  (Of course, Scarlet will come sooner.)  For me, they're interesting, but not that relevant until (and unless) they actually begin to ship.

AND people buy them.

Time will tell.  (Maybe I'll even be one of them...  But not today.)
-Brad

i just got off a shoot working along side a film crew. i talked to the DOP(one of new zealands best) about the red quite a bit. she had used the red, but was most experienced with 35mm cine. apparently the red has a very small latitude in the files (ive been told this a lot by DOPs) compare with film. and also has the horrible "pop" to white that many digital cameras have have prblems with with blown highlights. although the resolution is high, she though it was still a fare way away from out doing film for grading.
so maybe everyone is getting a bit too excited about it? who will want a large sensor for video and stills if it has the same issues with latitude? and it doesn't have autofocus, no optical finder- its hard to manual focus with hasselblads bright clear finder, so how on earth are we going to focus with a xvga screen? zoom in like live view??
and how with you change the shutter speed? shoot a higher frame rate? you wont get high flash sync, fast shutter speeds,  or high iso's?

im sure there are big changes on the horizon, but im not sure RED will be the real big thing in the short term future. all they have are promises and hype at the moment. i think i agree with anton, im sure canon has a massive team and resources working on an answer REDs threat.

paul
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:09:41 AM by paul_jones » Logged

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TMARK
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 10:36:01 AM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
i just got off a shoot working along side a film crew. i talked to the DOP(one of new zealands best) about the red quite a bit. she had used the red, but was most experienced with 35mm cine. apparently the red has a very small latitude in the files (ive been told this a lot by DOPs) compare with film. and also has the horrible "pop" to white that many digital cameras have have prblems with with blown highlights. although the resolution is high, she though it was still a fare way away from out doing film for grading.
so maybe everyone is getting a bit too excited about it? who will want a large sensor for video and stills if it has the same issues with latitude? and it doesn't have autofocus, no optical finder- its hard to manual focus with hasselblads bright clear finder, so how on earth are we going to focus with a xvga screen? zoom in like live view??
and how with you change the shutter speed? shoot a higher frame rate? you wont get high flash sync, fast shutter speeds,  or high iso's?

im sure there are big changes on the horizon, but im not sure RED will be the real big thing in the short term future. all they have are promises and hype at the moment. i think i agree with anton, im sure canon has a massive team and resources working on an answer REDs threat.

paul

The answers to your questions about the Red One are all over the web.  Lighting for the Red is like lighting for digital.  It has OK latitude, not like film.  A DP/Cinematog/gaffer can't light as if they were shooting film.  You use more fill, is the answer, cut contrast, just like you do with a digi stills camera. It sounds like you Kiwi DP is finding reasons not to like the Red, which is fine because film is better.

Its easy to focus with the screen or the cup, but dig it:  you do a lot of measuring for focus because PL mount lenses have real focus scales.  You also have a focus puller.  In any case, the Red One is not the threat to MFD or 35 digi., or Arri or panavision.  Its like Super 16, but better.  It integrates well with 35 cini film, but it is nowhere near the quality of really high end cini post production.  Color grading is what you make of it.  Out of the box color is astonishingly good.

Canon won't try to make a Cini camera, but they will probably make a scarlet/epic type still/HDV camera, like a supercharged 5D2.  Then there is Sony, Panasonic, etc.  We'll see.  I was talking tlo my partners and none of us want to throw down a huge chunk of change for an Epic, as the Red One is more than enough for music videos, commercials, store displays and web usage.  The scarlet, well, that may be a different story.  We'll see, but no one I know wants to buy anything right now.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 10:47:40 AM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
i just got off a shoot working along side a film crew. i talked to the DOP(one of new zealands best) about the red quite a bit. she had used the red, but was most experienced with 35mm cine. ............................

im sure there are big changes on the horizon, but im not sure RED will be the real big thing in the short term future. all they have are promises and hype at the moment. i think i agree with anton, im sure canon has a massive team and resources working on an answer REDs threat.

paul

Paul,

Canon  may have the resources, I don't know.

I do know that for a decade independent film makers, television producers and visual artists have begged, I mean really, really begged, Canon, Sony, JVC and Panasonic (CSJP) to come out with a digital video camera with a larger frame size, at least cine 35mm, under and over cranking and all the other professional accessories everyone wants and looks like film, not crappy pull focus for twenty blocks video.

I have a studio full of prosumer digital video cameras with all types of workarounds from Letus, Red Rock, chrozile and a bunch of other small companies and they become obsolete about 10 minutes after you purchase them.  

Now as far as DP's not liking digital video, that's been true from the first ENG's to the xl1 and in some ways they have a point, other it's just the same old tired line of not wanting to know about anything different  that film still photographers had when the first Canon 1ds appeared.

I'm not going to say one medium is better than the other, even in the highlight retention, but what is better with cine film than digital is the workflow is more defined,  widespread and accepted, just like it was in our still photography days of film.

Today, digital cine or digital still capture has to be a roll your own process with color and tone and with cine film, any dp can walk into  Technicolor and just say, I want our project to look like the movie 7 and they will give them the specs on the film, exposure, process (usually bleach bypass), telecine, etc. etc.

Actually the CSJP companies have moved glacier slow in their development of digital video cameras.  Just to adopt a tiny 1/2 inch sensor or a non proprietary hard disk storage took a decade so I don't know if they are going balls to the wall to produce a RED, Arriflex, Panavision killer, any more than they have attempted to make a medium format still digital camera.

Anyway, don't believe everything that a film cinematographer tells you because the ones I worked with hate change and loathe the thought of sitting in front of a computer and trying to become a colorist, or having to do anything other than their specific job and maybe nobody believes a dp will actualy be asked to color their footage, but if it's possible and the client knows it . . . then they WILL ask.

DP's and Cinematographers also loathe the thought that one  light on a boom can do what 10 can lights on a box truss previously did, one 3 lb camera and 4 lb tripod can do what a previous 150 lbs accomplished.  When we work on the Movie lots we all joke that most of the technology, from the cage doors, to the electrical hookups are old 1940's meat locker technology.

Whether film DP's like it or not it will happen, (maybe not with this generation) but cinema and motion will go through the exact same bumpy road as digital still photography, get the same blowback from labs, dps and colorists and duplication houses that the still photographers got from pre press houses and printers, mainly because nobody wants to upset the status quo, or learn a new process.

On a side note I can tell you from personal experience that the world of motion film is not an open door.  When I began building my reel in LA,  7 years ago, I wasn't greeted with open arms unless I paid double retail and just shooting a 2 minute short on film is a beg, borrow and steal proposition and not a system I'm comfortable with as I'm not a beg, borrow and steal guy, so I went digital video and learned to do most of this stuff myself.

As far as RED they have one camera, (though they do have one complete camera with multiple lens mounts) a complete accessory system (all the accessories) and an lcd that can be viewed.  That is one thing that already sets them apart and ahead of their still specialty camera bretheren, that and the fact you can actually talk to someone directly at RED without filling a support claim through a dealer.

As far as RED becoming the standard, who knows, but at least they had the cojones to do something that nobody else has done before and from all reports actually listen to their users.

That right there is a step in the right direction and unlike their specialty still camera counterparts RED is trying to develop a camera that works for motion and stills and that is revolutionary process.

Now this may seem hypocritical as I haven't bought a RED "yet", but I've promised myself not to buy anything at huge prices until I know I can use it a lot and I kind of have a bunch of bandaged fingers from sticking my fingers into the still medium format learning fan, so I'm waiting for those scars to heal.

I also would like the RED to be a bit smaller and less cinema looking because in LA paying locations and permits are more than double the costs if your shooting "film" or "cinema" or "motion" or whatever moving images are called, so it would be nice to have a RED that looked like a Nikon rather than an Arriflex.

Now in regards to shooting a combination of motion and stills in the same shoot, sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not, but if you can use the same light sources (not flash) but continuous you can shoot the motion scene, use that as your motion clip and your "still polaroid" scrub through it, find the elements you believe will work with stills, quickly redirect the scene for stills and shoot a few dozen frames of that for still capture.

The world has changed and just like digital stills, digital cinema will go through the exact same process.  All that is waiting is the Canon 1ds1 of the motion world, or the RED scarlet or something like that.

The diehard film guys will fight, scream and cry like babies, say pleeeze let me shoot film, but producers and clients aren't going to pay or wait 3 weeks for processing, digitizing and telecine just to see an image, still of moving.

IMLO (in my limited opinion).

JR
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 11:23:17 AM by James R Russell » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2009, 02:28:08 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
The answers to your questions about the Red One are all over the web.  Lighting for the Red is like lighting for digital.  It has OK latitude, not like film.  A DP/Cinematog/gaffer can't light as if they were shooting film.  You use more fill, is the answer, cut contrast, just like you do with a digi stills camera. It sounds like you Kiwi DP is finding reasons not to like the Red, which is fine because film is better.

Its easy to focus with the screen or the cup, but dig it:  you do a lot of measuring for focus because PL mount lenses have real focus scales.  You also have a focus puller.  In any case, the Red One is not the threat to MFD or 35 digi., or Arri or panavision.  Its like Super 16, but better.  It integrates well with 35 cini film, but it is nowhere near the quality of really high end cini post production.  Color grading is what you make of it.  Out of the box color is astonishingly good.

Canon won't try to make a Cini camera, but they will probably make a scarlet/epic type still/HDV camera, like a supercharged 5D2.  Then there is Sony, Panasonic, etc.  We'll see.  I was talking tlo my partners and none of us want to throw down a huge chunk of change for an Epic, as the Red One is more than enough for music videos, commercials, store displays and web usage.  The scarlet, well, that may be a different story.  We'll see, but no one I know wants to buy anything right now.


yes, i realize that you have a focus puller etc for film, but the point i was making was people seem to think they could use a RED for stills as well.

the DOP i was talking to probably does love film and the tradition , im sure it has a place in her heart, so we will have a bias. but she know digital is coming so she is keeping up with the play, and using the RED when she has a chance. she has been disappointed,  having to shoot with lighting like video is a major disadvantage! it means more things need to be lit, far less natural light.
one shot we were shooting yesterday was a couple walking through a corridor of a house, with an open door behind them. mainly natural light was used except a kino diffused for fill. how are you suppose to deal with that kind of lighting with less latitude? where do you put the lights when you see floor ceiling and walls? even shooting this with film was a test for latitude. not sure what could be done with the red with completely loosing the detail in the highlights and having the awful blooming that digital does .
The red is offering more resolution, but that really isn't needed that much. also, im not sure budget will force a lot of the better film companies to change (in the near future), although stock is expensive- its still a small part of the whole production. they seem to have the "if its not broken" attitude.
but maybe it wont be them making the decisions- maybe the clients will force it?

sorry everyone about taking this off topic...

paul
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2009, 04:13:12 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
...and ahead of their still specialty camera bretheren, that and the fact you can actually talk to someone directly at RED without filling a support claim through a dealer.

As RED grows as a company the chances are pretty good that the person answering your support call has no idea who you are. All they will know about you, or your level of knowledge, or your needs, or your style of communication will be from a database listing your equipment serial numbers and your date of purchase. You may not even get the same person on the phone twice.

There are not-so-good dealers in MFD, but good dealers know you are, and three words into the conversation already know, among many other things whether they should skip the simple troubleshooting stuff. Also, good luck getting RED on the phone on a holiday or after-hours when my customers often reach me on my cell. And if RED's decision on a repair/support matter doesn't meet your expectations good luck fighting them; you bought one (expensive, but singular) system. Maybe JR can throw his name around to get results, but most shooters are David fighting Goliath when it comes to fighting a company on a repair/support decision. Phase One treats its customers very well almost all the time, but when needed we have the leverage of millions of dollars of purchasing (an long established personal relationships) to ensure things are made right. In fact, when needed our owner can call the President of Phase One (and does several times a month) on his cell phone.

Generally the bigger a company gets the less the centralized support system works.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
bcooter
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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2009, 06:34:24 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Generally the bigger a company gets the less the centralized support system works.

I don't believe anyone thinks that your company doesn't do a good job for your customers.  

That doesn't mean that having to go through a dealer network to the maker doesn't add another layer but maybe that layer works for your customers.

Not knowing the specifics, in today's business climate, I'm sure your also being squeezed from both sides, the makers and the customers . . . join the club.

I dont know a lot of RED owners but the one's I've talked to say dealing with RED today is fun and involving and they are dealing with people that will give direct results

As far as what business model works for what company, that's really none of my concern on the dealer level, because I'm the end customer, not the dealer
and I think we all know what the end customer wants.  


BC
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 06:35:44 PM by bcooter » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2009, 07:43:03 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
As RED grows as a company the chances are pretty good that the person answering your support call has no idea who you are. All they will know about you, or your level of knowledge, or your needs, or your style of communication will be from a database listing your equipment serial numbers and your date of purchase. You may not even get the same person on the phone twice.

There are not-so-good dealers in MFD, but good dealers know you are, and three words into the conversation already know, among many other things whether they should skip the simple troubleshooting stuff. Also, good luck getting RED on the phone on a holiday or after-hours when my customers often reach me on my cell. And if RED's decision on a repair/support matter doesn't meet your expectations good luck fighting them; you bought one (expensive, but singular) system. Maybe JR can throw his name around to get results, but most shooters are David fighting Goliath when it comes to fighting a company on a repair/support decision. Phase One treats its customers very well almost all the time, but when needed we have the leverage of millions of dollars of purchasing (an long established personal relationships) to ensure things are made right. In fact, when needed our owner can call the President of Phase One (and does several times a month) on his cell phone.

Generally the bigger a company gets the less the centralized support system works.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

Doug,

I had to laugh reading your Post-- dealing with RED is on another Planet compared to the BS ( James pointed it out precislely) RMAs/ Support  Cases/etc/having to go through

some faceless dealer who spins you tall tales--with RED you deal directly Customer to the BOSS face tp face.

Don't get me wrong we deal with Phase- as I have stated in other posts we consider the 65+ State of the Art-we own two Backs/Phamiyas(unfortunately) and all the lenses

and Phase One US and Denmark direct  to deal with are extremely

helpful and kudos to them but save us this dealer middleman crap-- our purchasing dealer is no longer operating as such and we resent having to got through some dude in

another city we have never heard of nor met--sheesh!.

We are an established Photo setup -big boys and can handle dealing with problems face to face with Phase --we don't need our bottoms wiped by anyone else in the process.

Pity about  your mates at MAC  Group but that's another story

Just watch what RED is coming up with we are talking with them regular basis--I just hope Phase Backs will be involved.

Rant over

DesW
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2009, 08:24:57 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
As RED grows as a company the chances are pretty good that the person answering your support call has no idea who you are. All they will know about you, or your level of knowledge, or your needs, or your style of communication will be from a database listing your equipment serial numbers and your date of purchase. You may not even get the same person on the phone twice.

There are not-so-good dealers in MFD, but good dealers know you are, and three words into the conversation already know, among many other things whether they should skip the simple troubleshooting stuff. Also, good luck getting RED on the phone on a holiday or after-hours when my customers often reach me on my cell. And if RED's decision on a repair/support matter doesn't meet your expectations good luck fighting them; you bought one (expensive, but singular) system. Maybe JR can throw his name around to get results, but most shooters are David fighting Goliath when it comes to fighting a company on a repair/support decision. Phase One treats its customers very well almost all the time, but when needed we have the leverage of millions of dollars of purchasing (an long established personal relationships) to ensure things are made right. In fact, when needed our owner can call the President of Phase One (and does several times a month) on his cell phone.

Generally the bigger a company gets the less the centralized support system works.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

RED fixed a few things that we broke, quickly and without fuss.  I was impressed.
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2009, 08:53:19 PM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
yes, i realize that you have a focus puller etc for film, but the point i was making was people seem to think they could use a RED for stills as well.

the DOP i was talking to probably does love film and the tradition , im sure it has a place in her heart, so we will have a bias. but she know digital is coming so she is keeping up with the play, and using the RED when she has a chance. she has been disappointed,  having to shoot with lighting like video is a major disadvantage! it means more things need to be lit, far less natural light.
one shot we were shooting yesterday was a couple walking through a corridor of a house, with an open door behind them. mainly natural light was used except a kino diffused for fill. how are you suppose to deal with that kind of lighting with less latitude? where do you put the lights when you see floor ceiling and walls? even shooting this with film was a test for latitude. not sure what could be done with the red with completely loosing the detail in the highlights and having the awful blooming that digital does .
The red is offering more resolution, but that really isn't needed that much. also, im not sure budget will force a lot of the better film companies to change (in the near future), although stock is expensive- its still a small part of the whole production. they seem to have the "if its not broken" attitude.
but maybe it wont be them making the decisions- maybe the clients will force it?

sorry everyone about taking this off topic...

paul

RED is more sensative than film, thus that 4 bank Kino should have done it, if not, well, thats why god made grips.  Throw up a scrim, a huge butterfly to cut that light outside.  Need more fill?  Take two 4 foot Kino tubes, mount them on a fishing pole (mic boom), their ballasts on a belt, and have a grip light the actors as they move.  Or put a pocket par HMI in a China Ball on a fishing pole.  I do this all the time in motion shoots. You can also use your practicals to help out in these situations, but you generally need household electric to beef up the circuits on any practicals, or have them installed.  In motion shoots its not an issue to have a competent grip/gaffer, its actually a requirement.  That and sound.

Clients aren't forcing anything in motion now.  Stock and processing is not a major part of a budget for even an indy feature.  For a music video, or a commercial, the Red is ideal.  It looks good because its full frame, PL mount lenses rule, and the color is fantastic.  The only reason to use film for music videos or in store moving displays is to get that film look, but really, its over kill.

And I don't know what you mean by not being able to shoot in natural light.  We shot in NW Europe last winter on trams, at 3 in the afternoon. Dim, beautiful, Goddard like flat gray light.  You could have pushed black and white film to look that good, but color would have been dicey unless you resurrected the dearly departed John Alcott to pull off a Berry Lyndon.

Using the Red to shoot stills is a gimmick, if you ask me.  It can be done, and as a technology demonstration last months  W was a smashing success.  However, we don't use it to shoot stills.  We thought we would use it for stills much more, but what ends up happening is that I shoot all the stills with whatever suits the shoot.  Last week it was a Sinar P with E200G (a long story, but the brief changed and we needed movements) and a Leica M8.  If we needed to we could pull stills, but what a pain in the ass (and no movements).  The Epic and Scarlet will change this because you will be able to take a still like you can with the 5D2 while in flagrante delicto shooting motion.
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2009, 09:30:44 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
RED is more sensative than film, thus that 4 bank Kino should have done it, if not, well, thats why god made grips.  Throw up a scrim, a huge butterfly to cut that light outside.  Need more fill?  Take two 4 foot Kino tubes, mount them on a fishing pole (mic boom), their ballasts on a belt, and have a grip light the actors as they move.  Or put a pocket par HMI in a China Ball on a fishing pole.  I do this all the time in motion shoots. You can also use your practicals to help out in these situations, but you generally need household electric to beef up the circuits on any practicals, or have them installed.  In motion shoots its not an issue to have a competent grip/gaffer, its actually a requirement.  That and sound.

Clients aren't forcing anything in motion now.  Stock and processing is not a major part of a budget for even an indy feature.  For a music video, or a commercial, the Red is ideal.  It looks good because its full frame, PL mount lenses rule, and the color is fantastic.  The only reason to use film for music videos or in store moving displays is to get that film look, but really, its over kill.

And I don't know what you mean by not being able to shoot in natural light.  We shot in NW Europe last winter on trams, at 3 in the afternoon. Dim, beautiful, Goddard like flat gray light.  You could have pushed black and white film to look that good, but color would have been dicey unless you resurrected the dearly departed John Alcott to pull off a Berry Lyndon.

Using the Red to shoot stills is a gimmick, if you ask me.  It can be done, and as a technology demonstration last months  W was a smashing success.  However, we don't use it to shoot stills.  We thought we would use it for stills much more, but what ends up happening is that I shoot all the stills with whatever suits the shoot.  Last week it was a Sinar P with E200G (a long story, but the brief changed and we needed movements) and a Leica M8.  If we needed to we could pull stills, but what a pain in the ass (and no movements).  The Epic and Scarlet will change this because you will be able to take a still like you can with the 5D2 while in flagrante delicto shooting motion.

cool mark,  are shooting a lot with the red? i would love to be convinced otherwise about the RED. can single red frames be opened in any software besides the red software? i would very keen to see some examples of what the red is really like for myself. would you mind emailing me an example of a frame from the red so i can see for myself? (info at pauljonesimages dot com). or can anyone point me to some footage i can see myself that shows some changeling lighting? cheers paul
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 09:31:32 PM by paul_jones » Logged

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