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Author Topic: Flattening curled paper  (Read 6830 times)
dwood
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« on: July 13, 2009, 07:22:20 PM »
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I'm currently printing with Harman Gloss FB AL and Ilford GFS. Some prints are done with 13x19 sheets but most come off of a 24" roll. I usually let prints sit for a day or two before matting and while some of the curl settles during this period, I still have to flatten them out a bit before proceeding. I have a d-roller but have had mixed results with this thing. Often, if I take the d-roller to a print, it leaves some ripples behind. These are not usually visible when viewing the print head on but if viewed off-axis, well, that's another story. I need to find a better mousetrap. What do you folks do to take the curl out?

-Doug
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DeanChriss
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:34:11 PM »
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I have exactly the same problem with the d-roller. Ilford GGFS is very stiff, and it seems like the paper's leading edge leaves a "wave" in the paper when it wraps around by one full turn. On the second turn it either does not happen or is so slight that it's of no consequence. I've tried starting the print's leading edge further out instead of pushed toward the d-roller's core as far as possible. That seems to help a little, but it does not entirely eliminate the problem. It makes sense that all very stiff and fairly thick papers would have the same problem.

The d-roller has worked the best and fastest on mat papers, which are typically much more flexible than the Ilford GGFS. I've never seen a hint of a problem with these. I've also never seen a problem with RC papers (Epson Luster and Semi-gloss), though it takes far longer in the d-roller with these. I've not been able to eliminate the problem with Ilford GGFS. It makes sense that rolling the paper onto any other sort of core would have the same problem, and it would likely be worse because you would not have the rubber spacer between layers of the roll as you do with the d-roller.

I'm afraid this isn't any help, but misery loves company and you're not the only one with the problem. Short of flattening the paper in a dry mount press, or dry mounting the print, I see no solution. Note that Ilford does not recommend dry mounting due to the heat, so flattening the paper in a hot press is likely not a great idea either.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 06:35:48 PM by DeanChriss » Logged

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dwood
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 07:01:51 PM »
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Quote from: DeanChriss
I have exactly the same problem with the d-roller. Ilford GGFS is very stiff, and it seems like the paper's leading edge leaves a "wave" in the paper when it wraps around by one full turn. On the second turn it either does not happen or is so slight that it's of no consequence. I've tried starting the print's leading edge further out instead of pushed toward the d-roller's core as far as possible. That seems to help a little, but it does not entirely eliminate the problem. It makes sense that all very stiff and fairly thick papers would have the same problem.

The d-roller has worked the best and fastest on mat papers, which are typically much more flexible than the Ilford GGFS. I've never seen a hint of a problem with these. I've also never seen a problem with RC papers (Epson Luster and Semi-gloss), though it takes far longer in the d-roller with these. I've not been able to eliminate the problem with Ilford GGFS. It makes sense that rolling the paper onto any other sort of core would have the same problem, and it would likely be worse because you would not have the rubber spacer between layers of the roll as you do with the d-roller.

I'm afraid this isn't any help, but misery loves company and you're not the only one with the problem. Short of flattening the paper in a dry mount press, or dry mounting the print, I see no solution. Note that Ilford does not recommend dry mounting due to the heat, so flattening the paper in a hot press is likely not a great idea either.

Well, good to know that I'm not alone in this Dean. Frustrating, isn't it?
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OnyimBob
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 07:12:23 PM »
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Quote from: DeanChriss
I have exactly the same problem with the d-roller. Ilford GGFS is very stiff, and it seems like the paper's leading edge leaves a "wave" in the paper when it wraps around by one full turn. On the second turn it either does not happen or is so slight that it's of no consequence. I've tried starting the print's leading edge further out instead of pushed toward the d-roller's core as far as possible. That seems to help a little, but it does not entirely eliminate the problem. It makes sense that all very stiff and fairly thick papers would have the same problem.

The d-roller has worked the best and fastest on mat papers, which are typically much more flexible than the Ilford GGFS. I've never seen a hint of a problem with these. I've also never seen a problem with RC papers (Epson Luster and Semi-gloss), though it takes far longer in the d-roller with these. I've not been able to eliminate the problem with Ilford GGFS. It makes sense that rolling the paper onto any other sort of core would have the same problem, and it would likely be worse because you would not have the rubber spacer between layers of the roll as you do with the d-roller.

I'm afraid this isn't any help, but misery loves company and you're not the only one with the problem. Short of flattening the paper in a dry mount press, or dry mounting the print, I see no solution. Note that Ilford does not recommend dry mounting due to the heat, so flattening the paper in a hot press is likely not a great idea either.
Might be wrong, but I seem to recall Michael talking about this in one of his videos. I think he said that he put papers like GFS through the d-roller at an angle instead of straight in. Anyone else recall this?  Just checked the Camera to Print video and it wasn't in that.
Michael, am I wrong?
Cheers, Bob.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 07:46:35 PM »
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Quote from: OnyimBob
Might be wrong, but I seem to recall Michael talking about this in one of his videos. I think he said that he put papers like GFS through the d-roller at an angle instead of straight in. Anyone else recall this?  Just checked the Camera to Print video and it wasn't in that.
Michael, am I wrong?
Cheers, Bob.

May be this? http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../d-roller.shtml

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
David Sutton
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 09:30:19 PM »
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I'm using both, printing mainly 17 x 25. To get this size with GFS I cut it from a roll and put it through a home made de-roller. Haven't noticed any problems with ripples. My de-roller has a diameter of 2 1/2 in. Perhaps this is larger than the commercial one. Storing it flat for a day or so gets rid of any residual curl, and I can put it through a 3800 with no head strike as it exits. The prints are stored flat in a drawer and show no curl stacked in layers of 5 or 6.
The Harman Gloss curls like hell along the sides after printing. At present I am lightly glueing prints with this paper on to foam board for presentation, so can't say whether storing flat under light pressure will sort that out.
Cheers, David
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DeanChriss
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 08:47:14 PM »
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Quote from: Taquin
I'm using both, printing mainly 17 x 25. To get this size with GFS I cut it from a roll and put it through a home made de-roller. Haven't noticed any problems with ripples. My de-roller has a diameter of 2 1/2 in. Perhaps this is larger than the commercial one. Storing it flat for a day or so gets rid of any residual curl, and I can put it through a 3800 with no head strike as it exits. The prints are stored flat in a drawer and show no curl stacked in layers of 5 or 6.
The Harman Gloss curls like hell along the sides after printing. At present I am lightly glueing prints with this paper on to foam board for presentation, so can't say whether storing flat under light pressure will sort that out.
Cheers, David
Using the 2" D-Roller might be the solution. On the D-roller website I see they make a 1.5" and a 2" model, but none of the places they list as carrying their products carries the 2" model. Mine is the model 150, which I believe is 1.5" in diameter, and the model everyone sells. Both seem very small in diameter for papers as stiff as Ilford GFS, but maybe the 2" model reduces the pressure from the leading edge on the adjacent layer enough to reduce the waviness problem. Of course I'd have to spend another $250 (total of $500 !!!) to find out and *maybe* get an adequate solution. I got the D-Roller specifically to handle thick, stiff papers with a strong curl like Ilford GFS. Unfortunately these are the same papers the D-Roller works most poorly with. At the same time these papers are nearly impossible for me to work with unless they are made to lay flat somehow, so I've "made do" by using the D-roller and then laying the print flat under a weighted piece of foam core for a few days. The result isn't perfect, but I don't see how it could be done better.  

The next time I need to use this I'll try the "slight angle" approach that Bob recalls. The angle can't be very large since I'm using 24" paper in a 24" D-roller, but there is a little room to skew the paper a bit. That might distribute the force of that leading edge over more of the paper's length and lessen the effect. Or it might just make a wider "wave" in the paper.  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 08:49:07 PM by DeanChriss » Logged

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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 09:13:55 PM »
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Try it on the angle ( The D-roller ) Or Try it with not as much pressure head on..

The problem is these two papers are alpha cell papers..Less dense and like ther make up air filled.. What is happening is the paper is cruched thats the ripple...

The d roller was designed for all cotton and luster papers... at that time alpha cvell was far and few between.. Now adays they are becoming comon as they are less expensive to produce.

So with that said there are a few all cotton papers from this type they are more expensive to..

One of which will be getting even more expensive as of aug 1st by a whoping eye popping 30%

Hope this helps

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com


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kaelaria
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 01:35:45 AM »
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IGFS and ridiculous cost of the DRoller led me to my own way - works great, no wave! http://bgpictures.com/blog/2008/08/26/diy-paper-de-curler/
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jdoyle1713
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »
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Nice work..Nice Video..Hmm Lets see.. 2 hrs Plus supplies..189.. with a roll of paper..24 inch

OK Maybe at 94.50 an Hr.. But I Still didnt minus supplies and Gas..

OK Me Order Done shows up..HMMM

Havin Fun! Lots of ways to do this..With the price of shipping the big flat sheets or anything over 24 x
You either need something like this or you have to make one.. No way around it!

Nice Job Thanks for the insight.. Let me know How it holds up ..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com

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Richardlohmann
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 04:27:23 AM »
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Quote from: dwood
I'm currently printing with Harman Gloss FB AL and Ilford GFS. Some prints are done with 13x19 sheets but most come off of a 24" roll. I usually let prints sit for a day or two before matting and while some of the curl settles during this period, I still have to flatten them out a bit before proceeding. I have a d-roller but have had mixed results with this thing. Often, if I take the d-roller to a print, it leaves some ripples behind. These are not usually visible when viewing the print head on but if viewed off-axis, well, that's another story. I need to find a better mousetrap. What do you folks do to take the curl out?

-Doug

I have been using Harman Gloss AI since it was introduced. My prints are made from 24 inch rolls and are heavily curled as they come off the printer. Like gelatin silver prints, Harman gloss prints look incredible when dry mounted. The glossy surface is smooth and taut. Elegant.

I was at first reluctant to go to the trouble of dry mounting, but given the work required to make the prints--I shoot and scan 8x10 film, print on an Epson 7900 and carefully craft each image. In the end it seemed silly to not dry mount when I saw my images display a slight ripple when framed and under glass.

While an extra step-- its quite worth the effort.

Richard Lohmann
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dwood
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 09:52:01 AM »
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Quote from: Richardlohmann
I have been using Harman Gloss AI since it was introduced. My prints are made from 24 inch rolls and are heavily curled as they come off the printer. Like gelatin silver prints, Harman gloss prints look incredible when dry mounted. The glossy surface is smooth and taut. Elegant.

I was at first reluctant to go to the trouble of dry mounting, but given the work required to make the prints--I shoot and scan 8x10 film, print on an Epson 7900 and carefully craft each image. In the end it seemed silly to not dry mount when I saw my images display a slight ripple when framed and under glass.

While an extra step-- its quite worth the effort.

Richard Lohmann

Thanks for your insight on this Richard. I've never tried dry mounting but perhaps I'll investigate this a bit as I'm getting tired of fighting these damn ripples.
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DaveL
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2009, 09:01:53 AM »
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Similar....but maybe no help.

I worked for 3M for 15 years in a factory where they make sandpaper. They had problems with paper curling that made sandpaper discs useless.  Two fixes:
* humidity control throughout the process
* a machine called the "back-treater flexor" was used to progressively weaken the paper backing on the 5 foot wide sandpaper jumbo.

you could do the same by pulling the paper at an angle over the corner of a desk.  ymmv

Sideline--my friend Ray ran the BTF for 17 years. Used to see him often.  He was killed running the machine in an industrial accident. RIP Ray.

Dave
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kaelaria
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2009, 10:12:11 AM »
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AHHH!!!  No....don't do that!
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