Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Hahnemuhle rant, paper info  (Read 6307 times)
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 350


WWW
« on: July 16, 2009, 09:45:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Obvioulsy Hahnemuhle has set the high bar for years with their paper quality, high gamut coatings, etc.. But I just got word a massive price increase is about to hit. From 2 to 30% or so depending on which paper. I've kind of hit my patience limit with this stuff, they have the exchange rate going in their favor, they have US clients (everywhere actually) trying to weather a big slowdown, and now this. I can't pass this increase off to my artists. Also, despite my enthusiasm for HPR Baryta as a top photo surface performer, I have to say the specks in the paper have made for a very high print rejection rate, higher than any paper I've used. Why would I want to even pay more for it when it's badly made? Photo Rag, German Etching, and William Turner make for nice prints but other papers are getting damn nice too.
So, I'd be interested in a lot of exchanging of user experiences here with alternative papers.
I'll be the first to toss one in, Generations Alise Fine Art Paper.
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pg_alisefineart.php

Surface is nice, seems more robust than Photo Rag, there is a natural and a bright white. Dmax with Epson MK ink is higher than HPR, and the gamut quite comparable, though with a RIP limits have to be handled carefully. With Jon Cone's inks dmax was a hair lower than HPR, but still up over 6, depending on setup. Give it a try.
Anybody seen anything along the lines of German Etching and W Turner they like?
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7855



WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 10:43:32 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TylerB
Also, despite my enthusiasm for HPR Baryta as a top photo surface performer, I have to say the specks in the paper have made for a very high print rejection rate, higher than any paper I've used.

This worries me a lot. I have had many prints rendred unusable by specs on Photorag as well, with a huge cost in inks.

Reading from you that the problem is even worse with PR Baryta worries me a lot, I have quite a few rolls on order now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 08:55:46 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
This worries me a lot. I have had many prints rendred unusable by specs on Photorag as well, with a huge cost in inks.

Reading from you that the problem is even worse with PR Baryta worries me a lot, I have quite a few rolls on order now.

Cheers,
Bernard



Bernard

I´ve had the odd white speck on Hahne Photo Rage Bright White too, but what´s so difficult about spotting? We used to have to do it on glossy wet papers too, and depending on the purpose of the print, we got away with it then. Not pretty on gloss, but possible. On Matte papers it isn´t really a problem. I do, of course, refer to spots and not major flaws.

Rob C

Logged

Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1616


WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 09:20:46 AM »
ReplyReply

I just finished printing out some target profiles for Museo last weekend as they didn't have any for the matte finish papers (Epson 2880).   They were kind enough to send me five boxes of paper to compensate me for the ink and time (way generous!!).  I had not printed on any Museo papers except for the Artist Cards (which is a nice side business for me).  I was impressed with the quality of the paper and the price right now is below Hahnemuhle (and maybe way below pending the price increase).  HM Photo Rag Ultra Smooth has been my preferred matte paper with William Turner for special prints.  Museo make a textured rag paper and a fine art paper.  Neither have quite the same texture as William Turner and are not exact substitutes.  In addition, the fine art paper prints extremely light in terms of colors.  I noticed this when I printed out the targets for Museo and when I tried testing it on a number of print settings with my 2880 cannot get the color levels up.  I can't see the utility of this paper other than printing out special "muted" prints.  I am impressed with both the Museo Photo Rag and MAX papers.  The Photo Rag is, I think, a direct replacement for the HM Ultra Smooth and i will probably be switching over to it.  It performs equally well with color and B&W, though I will need to have Erick Chan do up a B&W profile for the 2880 ABW driver to refine the printing.  I have not seen many reviews of the Museo papers and wonder why.
Logged

TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 350


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 11:20:31 AM »
ReplyReply

Bernard, rather than be concerned, consider yourself fortunate for having gotten some ordered and stocked in before the price increase. The paper prints nicely, I'm sure you'll like it. Now that you are aware of the potential of specs, just roll out enough to look in advance before printing, then roll back up. If you see chunks, slice that part off and use it for test prints or proofs or whatever.
I prefer to make user issues known, perhaps they will then address it in future runs and make a better product.
Tyler
Logged
Thomas Krüger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 452



WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 02:27:33 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TylerB
If you see chunks, slice that part off and use it for test prints or proofs or whatever.
I prefer to make user issues known, perhaps they will then address it in future runs and make a better product.
Tyler

If there are chunks the paper should be reimbursed. If the company doesn't act (because they think that they have more than enough customers) it's time to switch to another paper company.
Logged
johncustodio
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 43


« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 08:36:05 PM »
ReplyReply

I think these posters may be referring to black specks in either the paper base or the coating (which can't be spotted out). I had a 17x22 box of H Photo Rag Baryta which had 1 or 2 black specks on at least half the sheets. If the speck got covered by dark ink in the picture, you wouldn't notice it. But if it was in a sky area, the print would be ruined. I sent the box back, but the replacement box was just as bad or worse: 1 or 2 specks on about 3/4 of the 25 sheets in the box. I sent the second box back and got a refund.
-John

Quote from: Rob C
Bernard

I´ve had the odd white speck on Hahne Photo Rage Bright White too, but what´s so difficult about spotting? We used to have to do it on glossy wet papers too, and depending on the purpose of the print, we got away with it then. Not pretty on gloss, but possible. On Matte papers it isn´t really a problem. I do, of course, refer to spots and not major flaws.

Rob C
Logged
jdoyle1713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 10:42:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Hey Gang

 

Yes Hahnemuhle is having an increase! That’s for sure.. I see All types of crazy stuff.. Big Flat Sheets Up So Much I cant even describe..I am still trying to figure it out myself..

 

A 24 x 39 roll of HPR 308 is rising by 15 dollars If I remember correct. But a 44 inch roll is only like 8.. while 8.5 x 11 sheets went down.. This is the most insANE THING I HAVE EVER SEEN..

 

No I just want you all to remember one thing  Hahnemuhle is a 39’ foot roll while Innova ( act is way better than 2 yrs ago) Museo & Canson all are 50” feet

 

As a general broadcast if you want to go over your  product either email or call me and you know I do my best for you guys & Gals…( some free samples If Needed as Long as some pays shipping- Sheet Or two)

 

To me this is puzzling for sure just like it must be for all of you.. Not to mention way to much work!

 

Thanks Again to all of my awesome customers!~

 
Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
Logged

howseth
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109


WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 11:46:50 PM »
ReplyReply

"Yes Hahnemuhle is having an increase! That’s for sure.. I see All types of crazy stuff.. Big Flat Sheets Up So Much I cant even describe..I am still trying to figure it out myself..

Cheers
Jim Doyle"


Does the price increase also apply to the Photo Rag Satin rolls? (That I use) Man, It is already too expensive .... Oh boy... Nice of them to acknowledge  the recession ....

Howard
Logged
jdoyle1713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2009, 09:12:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Howard

Photo Rag SATIN..iN 17" AND 44 " ARE GOING UP WHILE 24 & 36 ROLLS ARE GOING DOWN A HAIR
The papers that are hit the most are the new ones..Baryta , Bamboo , Sugar cane and Of Course Photo Rag..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
Logged

Paul Roark
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2009, 11:37:13 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TylerB
... I'd be interested in a lot of exchanging of user experiences here with alternative papers.
I'll be the first to toss one in, Generations Alise Fine Art Paper.
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pg_alisefineart.php
...
http://www.custom-digital.com/

In my tests the Premier Art Generations Alise papers now hold the dmax title.  I've been a fan of Premier Imaging papers for some time.  They make the Epson Premier Art Scrapbook paper, which does seem to have superior lightfastness in my fade tests.  It also has very low rub off, which, particularly if sprayed with Lascaux Fixativ, makes it about the best paper for inkjet books.  Premier sells this paper as its Smooth 205.  I've been a fan of the thicker Hot Press/Smooth 325 for some time also.  The Premier Art Smooth BW is the most neutral/cool paper I've found for the 100% carbon pigment prints I make -- Lab B goes from about -2 to 0 with my Epson 7500 and Eboni-6 inkset.

For economy, Red River papers are hard to beat.  Their Aurora Fine Art papers have a more typical dmax than the H. Photo Rag or PA Alise papers, but they are very nice and affordable.

I've used Innova Soft Texture for a number of years for my warmer prints.  I think the surface texture of this (also more affordable) paper is hard to beat.

Paul      
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged
howseth
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109


WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 12:35:19 PM »
ReplyReply

"Photo Rag SATIN..iN 17" AND 44 " ARE GOING UP WHILE 24 & 36 ROLLS ARE GOING DOWN A HAIR
The papers that are hit the most are the new ones..Baryta , Bamboo , Sugar cane and Of Course Photo Rag..

Cheers
Jim Doyle"

Thanks for the info.

Is there any other paper that has a surface quality/characteristics like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin ... but less expensive?)

Howard
Logged
jdoyle1713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2009, 06:12:27 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: howseth
"Photo Rag SATIN..iN 17" AND 44 " ARE GOING UP WHILE 24 & 36 ROLLS ARE GOING DOWN A HAIR
The papers that are hit the most are the new ones..Baryta , Bamboo , Sugar cane and Of Course Photo Rag..

Cheers
Jim Doyle"

Thanks for the info.

Is there any other paper that has a surface quality/characteristics like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin ... but less expensive?)

Howard

Sorry Howard But I dont carry any..

Cheers
Jim Doyle
Logged

JeffKohn
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1671



WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2009, 10:57:44 AM »
ReplyReply

I recently switched from Photo Rag to Crane Museo Max for my matte prints, the Museo Max has a better dmax with my Canon ipf5000 and about the same gamut. It's also a bit cheaper when you consider it comes on longer rolls (50' instead of 39'). It has ever  so slightly more texture than Photo Rag, but I don't find it at all objectionable. Their Museo Portfolio Rag is smoother and also nice, but I found it to not have quite as much dmax/gamut as Museo Max.

For semi-gloss I like the Photo Rag Baryta. Can't say I've noticed any spec problems it. I'm assuming this is different from the flaking problem with Photo Rag, where some of the print surface would flake off after printing and leaving behind a white spot?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 10:59:21 AM by JeffKohn » Logged

MHMG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 600


« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2009, 07:38:26 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: JeffKohn
I recently switched from Photo Rag to Crane Museo Max for my matte prints, the Museo Max has a better dmax with my Canon ipf5000 and about the same gamut. It's also a bit cheaper when you consider it comes on longer rolls (50' instead of 39'). It has ever  so slightly more texture than Photo Rag, but I don't find it at all objectionable. Their Museo Portfolio Rag is smoother and also nice, but I found it to not have quite as much dmax/gamut as Museo Max.

However, HN Photo Rag turns in significantly higher lightfastness results in my tests, not that the Museo products are bad, but HN photo rag yields significantly higher light fade resistance nonetheless, with Canon Lucia (X000 series printers) and K3 printers like the Epson 7800. So, no free lunch.  Initial image quality, media cost, and print longevity, often times strike an unholy alliance!

Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Logged
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 350


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2009, 07:55:39 PM »
ReplyReply

Yes, as the original ranter, I have to add it's important to acknowledge Hahnemuhle's contribution. The simple fact is that the most beautiful ink prints I've seen, from the very beginning when good coated papers were only available under the Lyson and Luminos brands before we knew they were the big H, have been on Hahnemuhle papers. Performance has been outstanding from the outset. Some major re-adjustments have had to occur, like learning about coating's reactions to air pollutants and proximity to certain substance's outgassing etc., prebrushing and cautious handling, etc..
It's more a matter of partnering with their market through very difficult times and addressing QC issues, or pricing themselves out of it.
The very fact that their papers are so good make it's gut-wrenching to have to find alternatives.
Tyler

Logged
MHMG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 600


« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2009, 09:14:01 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TylerB
It's more a matter of partnering with their market through very difficult times and addressing QC issues, or pricing themselves out of it.
The very fact that their papers are so good make it's gut-wrenching to have to find alternatives.
Tyler

I'm a relatively new resident in the town of Lee, Massachusetts.  In the 19th and 20th century, the town's major commerce was paper making. There were 16 paper mills in this town at one point. The last one closed in April of this year. Where did the town's primary livelihood go? To cheaper labor markets in Mexico and China, of course. Lee will now have to survive on tourism, and with a little luck on the new technologies that small companies like mine can infuse back into historic small town America. I do hope the town of Lee will regroup and prosper once again, but when a company, a town, or a country loses its major manufacturing base, it often cannot maintain its former level of prosperity.

I don't know what market pressures caused Hahnemuhle to raise it's prices. Yet, like many reading this post, I believe that a price rise that goes beyond the general levels of apparent inflation and for which the company's customers don't fully understand the reasons, will cause many customers to look for decent alternatives. And that can lead to the market forces like the ones that caused the decimation of the manufacturing base in my newly adopted home town. Cost, quality, and convenience are the product viability triangle that remains absolute. All companies must abide by the rules of that game.

Best,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Logged
daws
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 268


« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 03:20:37 AM »
ReplyReply

Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, 11x17", box of 50 sheets, from B&H:

June 2007 - 140.00 (price as ordered)
April 2008 - 154.37 (price as ordered)
Today - 154.37 (price from B&H website)


Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, 13x19", box of 50 sheets, from B&H:

October 2006 - 189.95 (price as ordered)
May 2007 - 206.90 (price as ordered)
Today - 223.72 (price from B&H website)


Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, 11x17", box of 20 sheets, from B&H:

July, 2008 - 59.57 (price as ordered)
Today - 59.57 (price from B&H website)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 03:34:58 AM by daws » Logged
Alan Goldhammer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1616


WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 10:20:26 AM »
ReplyReply

The reality is that fine art ink jet papers are a niche product from a business perspective.  Kimberly Clark and Procter & Gamble probably make more per year selling bathroom tissue, Kleenex, and paper towels than does Hahnemuhle (and maybe all the other manufacturers combined - this would be hard to ascertain as many of the ink jet paper companies are privately held and one can't get exact sales figures).  It's also difficult to figure out what the profit margins are for fine art ink jet paper.  Some of you who do high volume printing can do some quick calculations about what you pay for paper on a yearly basis.  I'm just a hobbyist who sells an occasional print or box of photo note cards, so my breakdown isn't necessarily applicable to everyone on this list.  But this is what I use on a year projected basis (approximate #s):

350 sheets Letter size paper (Ilford Gold Fibre, Epson Ultra Premium Matte - mainly for proofing and catlogues, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth, HM Bamboo, HM William Turner - may be moving to Museo Photo Rag instead of HM Ultra Smooth depending on further testing also Museo Silver Rag in place of Epson Exhibition Fiber)

50 sheets 13x19 (Ilford Gold Fiber and HM Ultra Smooth which are the two papers I offer for large size prints)

1000 Museo #6 Artist Cards

I don't think any of the manufacturers are getting rich off of these levels of purchases.
Logged

SarahNewman
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15



WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2009, 04:07:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Good news for now, this just came across my desk-

Dear HFA dealers;
 
Following the recent announcement referencing our global pricing synchronization, we have discussed with and reached agreement with our senior management that the required pricing adjustment is not sustainable in our market. Therefore; a pending pricing alignment has been revised to reflect a more practical approach.
 
The proposed pricing corrections scheduled for implementation on Aug 3rd are rescinded. A new pricing table will be published later this week which will reflect what we feel is a very fair compromise. This new price schedule will be effective September 1, 2009. Of the 250+ SKUs in the Hahnemuhle USA line, approximately 100 of these will show price reductions and of those that do require an upward correction, they have been capped at a much lower amount. We trust that this alteration will be far better for your business.  
 
The overall intention of the proposed changes is to reflect relative worldwide parity in both Street and MAP pricing as we look to the future and protect our business. We highly value the partnerships we enjoy across our entire customer base and we apologize whole-heartedly and without reservation for this inconvenience.
 
 
Yours sincerely,
 
Martin Kerver
President - Hahnemuhle USA
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 04:55:53 PM by SarahNewman » Logged

Happy Printing!

Sarah Newman
Spectraflow, Inc.
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad