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Author Topic: Red questions  (Read 12503 times)
michael
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 10:58:07 AM »
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Quote from: BJNY
Just curious where they are sourcing the sensor from?

The sensor is called the Mysterium – I guess for a reason.  
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rainer_v
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 11:04:33 AM »
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i am reading with a lot of interest these discussions about the red here, although in my field of work there hasnt arrived any video ndemand yet, at least not to me. but nevertheless digital arrived in architecture photography late too, and this was one of the reasons for many photographers to wait and to wait and to wait with the adaption for it or to engage themselve to explore the chances and new looks digital imaging brings. for many business this has been the end or they move forward to it..
so at least i can imagine a new change again and i think its worth to be attentive whats going on.
the 5d2 is exciting and at least a nice tool to become friend with video, although for me just on a "playing" level- but i start to love it and to have ideas what i coukd do with it.  thats how things sometimes start for me, playing around. i just uploded this nice new firmware ( described in the LL video test of the 5d2 ), and of course:  the red features/ prices sound amazing. phase has to hurry up to sell enough p65 before the prices will be marginalized one more time...
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2009, 11:24:35 AM »
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QUOTE: Lighting is my other 'headache'....

Lighting equipment too has changed and will change - although more slowly than cameras I suspect.  How long ago were Brute's (arc-lights) replaced by HMI's?

However, it is amazing to me what is now achievable through high ISO and fast lenses. There will always be a need for finely controlled continuous lighting and its necessary equipment but that equipment today can often be smaller and less expensive than in the past due to lower light requirements. It can be more portable, more user friendly and with less need of power, manpower and their related paraphernalia. Not everything need be shot at ISO 50 or 100. ISO 1600 can make a lot of difference. But the equivalent output of continuous vs. flash will remain a major step for stills folk.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 11:27:44 AM by ChrisSand » Logged

Christopher Sanderson
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Andre R
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2009, 11:43:24 AM »
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Quote from: ChrisSand
.. it is amazing to me what is now achievable through high ISO and fast lenses.

This is also the direction I probably will take. IF the next 5DmarkIII, 1DsIV can shoot FF full-res video or RED Scarlet/Epic 35FF can take EF lenses then my choice is obvious (using my 1.2/1.4 glass). IF I on the other hand get my hands on a EPIC 645 (EPIC 617 is slightly overkill for me right now...) and have to use 'slow' MF glass then I'm not so sure anymore.

AndreR
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2009, 02:13:39 PM »
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I'd like to know what  kind of batteries they have to be able to shoot at up to 50 FPS    24 mp RAWs  :-)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:22:39 PM by erick.boileau » Logged
geesbert
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 07:07:50 AM »
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where the sensor is coming from? have you ever realised that nearly every soldier in the world wears Oakley glases? I guess these contacts gave Jim quite a shortcut to source military supply. Did you really think those sensors are designed for photographers?
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billthecat
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 07:30:31 AM »
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I hope that Jim makes a 4x5 sensor camera with live view and contrast detection auto focus with huge DR and options to realistically convert to popular film types in RAW. But what they are doing with their new sensors has really surprised me.

The 5D2 video is nice, but you can see how it'd be a lot better with simple improvements from Canon. Anyway, just the lowly Canon video takes a lot of processing time and space on my new Mac.

Bill
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michael
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 07:54:48 AM »
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The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs.

Michael
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 08:07:44 AM »
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The sensors are new designs, designed by RED's in-house experts. They're not bought in from Kodak or Dalsa or... etc. Part of that is that we get to control what we're doing, and have the ability to innovate, and part of it is that we have very specific requirements for how fast those sensors can be run because we do motion and (will be) stills. And because of the rather nice compression engines in camera, you can keep that raw sensor resolution at a very high fps through to your storage medium. Your style of photography may not require a high burst rate, or even motion capture, but you will certainly enjoy the amount of shots you can take on a card and the speed that they get saved and not waiting for a buffer to write to card because the system is designed for the higher requirement of real time raw motion capture.

Now, I'm not a sensor designer, but I do know a few, and this high speed side of things is rather tricky. But there are ways to cheat high speed on a CMOS because usually on CMOS designs you can read off any row in any order. The more rows you try to read off, the slower everything goes. So, if you feel like it, you could skip reading some rows and get a more HD sized output off the sensor, with just a bit of scaling needed to make the "HD" image. This would make a sensor appear to run much faster, but can and does lead to some atrocious artifacts in the image. So we don't do that. Similarly, doing high quality scaling of video in real time is quite easy from a mathematical definition point of view, but hard from a fit it all in hardware, to run in real time, with minimum power consumption point of view. You could just cheat on the scaling, and hope people don't see seams in the image, or aliases or funky color artifacts. So we don't do that.

There are both cost, technical and mechanical design reasons why video can look vastly inferior to a camera's stills capabilities. Doing motion properly is by far the harder task than doing stills properly. You can see that in how far ahead digital stills cameras are compared to traditional video cameras, and how quickly image processing software for stills has developed compared to grading software for video. It's just so much easier and so much less computer resource consuming to deal with stills images than motion imagery.

Now is the time for motion to finally catch up to stills, and for stills to benefit from the technology that allows motion to produced at the same quality as the stills. So that's what we're doing. We're making motion look as good as stills shot on the same camera.

Graeme
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 08:09:26 AM »
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Quote from: michael
The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs.

Michael

That could be true, :-) , but the new REDRocket accelerator card is helping a lot with the image processing: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32588

Graeme
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georgl
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 09:01:23 AM »
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How many employees does RED have? Where's the fab for the "self-designed" sensor? Also in Singapore like the camera-production itself to cut taxes and wages?

The new Leica-S2-sensor is also "developed by Leica", which means that they decided for a size and rough specifications, microlenses and filtering. But the architecture is still developed by Kodak and it is manufactured in their fab.

A little bit more transparency and little bit less marketing, please.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:06:03 AM by georgl » Logged
erick.boileau
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 09:15:23 AM »
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and who produce the lenses ?
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mmurph
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 09:39:16 AM »
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Quote from: michael
The whole video thing is actually just a plot to get us to buy bigger and faster macs

Yeah, but even Macs seem cheap once you buy a Red Epic and the Primes.  

I always liked buying a new house, when you are spending $300K you can always sneak in another $3oK for toys, etc.  

Ooops, just checked - that $300K house is now worth $30K here in Michigan. Anyone want to trade for a Red?  
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mmurph
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 09:44:13 AM »
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Quote from: Andre R
My workhorse is battery powered profoto/Bron packs with Para's, Giant's and different modifiers.

Andre,

I use all Bron. I bought a couple of Bron HMI a few years ago when I shared a building with a video production company. Can also use 650 watt modelling lights on 220 if you have it. I have about 8 tungsten heads along with that.

You can use the HMI with most of the Bron light modifiers. Certainly with the Para.  The biggest concern is things like softboxes. Mine are non-Bron, just swap out for Cine boxes.

Not the best way to go $$ wise if you are starting from scratch. But for someone who is already invested in Bron ...  Then throw in a Honda generator.

I will miss my Verso kit and that pop of the flash when we go all continous.    
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:45:32 AM by mmurph » Logged
Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »
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When I say designed in house, I mean totally designed, as in the circuits, the pixels on the chip - everything is a in-house custom design. I do not mean rough specifications. I mean designed in the full sense of the word designed.

Graeme

Quote from: georgl
How many employees does RED have? Where's the fab for the "self-designed" sensor? Also in Singapore like the camera-production itself to cut taxes and wages?

The new Leica-S2-sensor is also "developed by Leica", which means that they decided for a size and rough specifications, microlenses and filtering. But the architecture is still developed by Kodak and it is manufactured in their fab.

A little bit more transparency and little bit less marketing, please.
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paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 02:27:18 PM »
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Quote from: Graeme Nattress
When I say designed in house, I mean totally designed, as in the circuits, the pixels on the chip - everything is a in-house custom design. I do not mean rough specifications. I mean designed in the full sense of the word designed.

Graeme

wow, I thought red was ambitious..but the speed and depth to which they are developing products is amazing..graeme, I don't see how you guys have enough hours in the day to get it all done.  thanks for the link on the redrocket thread, it has been ahile since I last got a good dose of where you guys where at and I am impresssed. Jim makes mr jobs look like he is coasting.
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 05:25:29 PM »
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We had to start with a totally custom and unique sensor design as there was nothing quite right to buy off the shelf. When you get far into it, you may as well go the rest of the way, so now we're doing custom asic chips for the camera functionality, our own lenses, and REDRAY 4K content delivery player, so basically very high resolution end-to-end motion and soon to be stills imagery. We are all very enthusiastic, and most of the people there are complete camera geeks.
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pschefz
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 05:31:11 PM »
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the whole motion/film/still transition is nothing new at all....when i assisted in NY in the 90's i worked for 2 guys (both commercial, catalog shooters) and we frequently had a little track and arriflex in the studio to shoot 5 or 10 or 15 sec clips of the same girl for a tv ad....a lot of celebrity shooters in LA switched to music videos entirely....there was way more money in it.....

the web and LCDs and with digital video getting so much better and cheaper, it is all just a natural transition.....for fashion/people/commercial i really don't think the difference is that much (although i am sure some people would still like to make their clients believe it was and charge them the big movie bucks!).....if we are talking about 5 or 10 sec clips that are edited down to 2 or 3 sec segments,the story is told in editing...very much like an AV show (anyone remember those)....so if i take 5 frames of the girl spinning and smiling or 150 really makes no difference to me (or the girl)....

i will be shooting a job in a couple of weeks and part of this job will be video...for the first time...it will be interesting....

what is interesting is how this will affect the movie crews.....here in LA i am always blown away by the enormous crews, 20 guys running around with headsets, nobody seems to be doing anything....and everybody is union! how will that work out?

i will be shooting a lot of video over the next couple of months...trying to keep things really simple and not adding to my still crew.....it will be interesting....

as for the RED: i welcome anything and everything that will make my life easier and that will help me put my vision out there....i don't see how this company can come out of nowhere and completely take down canon, sony, panasonic and nikon....somehow that just does not sound believable....i think the 5DIII will mop the floor with all that.....FF 25mpix at variable framerates, articulate 3.5 screen, clean iso 800 (usable 3200) for less then 3000$.......but any competition will just light fires under the big a..es....

apple has been an major innovator since the start so the iphone or the ipod (which was simply a product nobody knew they needed)....did not really come out of nowhere......fuji did come out of nowhere to take on kodak....

the fact that red comes out of nowhere, with everything done in house pretty much shows what is wrong with DMF....all these companies with all this history and all these patents and know how just could not get it together....

whatever anyone says, the red (compared to a H3D) is just from another planet.....
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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 09:17:52 PM »
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Quote from: pschefz
the fact that red comes out of nowhere, with everything done in house pretty much shows what is wrong with DMF....all these companies with all this history and all these patents and know how just could not get it together....

whatever anyone says, the red (compared to a H3D) is just from another planet.....

Interesting.  Here is what you said about the Leica S2:

"nobody is badmouthing leica....some are simply discussing the yet unproven concept of the S2 in a professional photography context 2009....which is questionable....most here seem to agree that we actually all WANT this to succeed....because we all at one point or another have had a certain leica bug....
what we do know is that the lenses will be great....what we HOPE is that the body/capture/digital end will be a lot smoother then the m8 release...

i really hope leica has learned from that fiasco...it is a lot easier to sell a camera everybody is waiting for to use their lenses on the a completely new system...for the highest end (even for leica) and actually not even for their market....one could argue that the only professional cameras leica have built is the m line for photojournalists....the S2 is made for commercial pros, which is a new market for leica....

sorry, as good as the R line was, i have never seen or heard of a pro using it, although i am sure there are/were some because of its obvious advantages (it always comes down to the lenses with leica...)....

i am afraid the S2 will fail inspite of being maybe the best "MF" system ever made....probably because it is the last...."

Why the double standard??? What has Red done to convince you that at least on the issue of IQ for stills, it will surpass Phase/Hasselblad?
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 11:41:23 PM »
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let's compare at the end , pixel to pixel, the best system  (sensor + lenses) , for the moment RED is  just a great motion camera
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