Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Red questions  (Read 12506 times)
pschefz
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 244


« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 11:59:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: hcubell
Why the double standard??? What has Red done to convince you that at least on the issue of IQ for stills, it will surpass Phase/Hasselblad?


wow, someone is actually reading all this...

i don't consider the RED to be on a different planet because of IQ but because it provides image makers with a tool they need (not more pixels and the same old lcd)...especially in a changing market....i believe the S2 will better then all DMF simply because leica did not start the project with a DMF back in mind...(but it still follows that old road which is why i don't think it will be a success....)

the H3D and even more so the latest mamiyas are just newer, fancier versions of old stuff....a GM comparison was made here somewhere, and i think it fits here...a modern car still has 4 wheels but it sure is different then what has come out of detroit in the last 20 years...especially when they tried to MAKE it look "modern" and "new"....but that is a different story....

just spoke with a stylist who happens to be working on a big sports campaign right now....one huge stage, half day stills, half day motion for web, displays,.....


i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....


and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....


and just in time apple has released their new final cut studio...which looks amazing and will probably keep me busy.....

at 300$ less then before.....

and speaking of GM and hasselblad.....microsoft's profit is down 30%...but i am sure windows 7 will change all that:)
Logged

schefz.com
artloch.com
Christopher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944


WWW
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2009, 01:06:14 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: pschefz
wow, someone is actually reading all this...

i don't consider the RED to be on a different planet because of IQ but because it provides image makers with a tool they need (not more pixels and the same old lcd)...especially in a changing market....i believe the S2 will better then all DMF simply because leica did not start the project with a DMF back in mind...(but it still follows that old road which is why i don't think it will be a success....)

the H3D and even more so the latest mamiyas are just newer, fancier versions of old stuff....a GM comparison was made here somewhere, and i think it fits here...a modern car still has 4 wheels but it sure is different then what has come out of detroit in the last 20 years...especially when they tried to MAKE it look "modern" and "new"....but that is a different story....

just spoke with a stylist who happens to be working on a big sports campaign right now....one huge stage, half day stills, half day motion for web, displays,.....


i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....


and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....


and just in time apple has released their new final cut studio...which looks amazing and will probably keep me busy.....

at 300$ less then before.....

and speaking of GM and hasselblad.....microsoft's profit is down 30%...but i am sure windows 7 will change all that:)

RED can pull it off by using a high compression in their raw format. Will this be seen in a final still ? I'm pretty sure a Hassi or Phase will old a lot more micro detail. Will it really matter in real live ? Well I'm not so sure. Shooting at 24 or even higher fps is very tempting.
Logged

georgl
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 140


« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2009, 02:16:15 AM »
ReplyReply

The RED ONE is made in Singapore, the first RED-lenses were rehoused consumer-sigma-lenses, so who is really making the sensor and who makes the lenses?



Logged
gwhitf
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 818


« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2009, 06:52:43 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: pschefz
and from what i have seen in print from the red one (which really isn't even "made" for stills, with it's small sensor and limited resolution) it really confirms my opinion that DMF is dead.....

I don't think it's dead, but I do think it's going to settle into its quiet little niches -- either for tethered advertising, or for Amateurs That Think That Big Prints Mean Good Pictures.

What MF needs is some Sex. They're slowing falling into that category of That Smelly Old Man That Gets The Job Done, And Shows Up On Time, But Needs A Shower And A Change Of Clothes.

But I have no mercy for them -- we've been bitching about the tiny, pixellated LCD for years, literally, and it's been completely ignored. They have made their own bed, chasing megapixels, so now, they've gotta lay in it. So be it.
Logged
Graeme Nattress
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 582



WWW
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2009, 07:40:27 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Christopher
RED can pull it off by using a high compression in their raw format. Will this be seen in a final still ? I'm pretty sure a Hassi or Phase will old a lot more micro detail. Will it really matter in real live ? Well I'm not so sure. Shooting at 24 or even higher fps is very tempting.

Well, the compression is only part of the solution to high fps on large sensors. The other part of the solution is sensors designed for very fast readout, very fast read/reset times, and having the processing power and architecture to deal with an awful lot of data at once. The compression is the part that allows you to record these high fps that the sensor can shoot onto a reasonable sized media. Without it, we'd be carrying around a refrigerator of hard drives to record the images.

I can understand the hesitancy over the use of compression, however, what I like to think on is what the compression enables in terms of how it allows you to shoot with much more freedom, rather than any potential perceived quality loss. If the compression allows you to get the shot you want, then the alternative could have been no good shot at all in it's full uncompressed glory. That's not a trade I'd make. Beyond that, we'll just have to wait and see how the cameras actually perform, and how the compression (which is a lot more advanced than in the RED One) works in practice.

Graeme
Logged

www.nattress.com - Plugins for Final Cut Pro and Color
www.red.com - Digital Cinema Cameras
Graeme Nattress
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 582



WWW
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2009, 07:49:13 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: georgl
The RED ONE is made in Singapore, the first RED-lenses were rehoused consumer-sigma-lenses, so who is really making the sensor and who makes the lenses?

The box for the RED One does say made in Singapore. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.
The box for the first lens said made in UK. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.
The boxes for the new lenses say made in Japan. There are some very talented and highly skilled workers there.

Reposting of rumours and asking the same question over and over, getting a detailed answer on the sensor, then doubting that answer is not a constructive way to proceed.

I fully understand your skepticism and desire to know answers. However, you must realize that you're asking for commercially sensitive information and that you have no hope in hell of getting a response to those questions.

Graeme
Logged

www.nattress.com - Plugins for Final Cut Pro and Color
www.red.com - Digital Cinema Cameras
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2009, 07:56:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: pschefz
i just don't understand how RED can pull 100frames/sec off a 645 chip (at 40mpix 16bit) and phase and all others manage 1/100th of that...blows my mind.....

The off-the-shelf chips from Dalsa and Kodak can't be read very fast. For all the complaints people make about the MFDB makers, I still say that the lethargic sensor releases from Dalsa and Kodak are the worst offenders. If they made a 10fps chip with usable ISO 3200, the MFDB makers would use the chip - no question. How long did it take them to make a 645 chip?

Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
cmi
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 491


« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2009, 11:49:28 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.

Neither where Canon and the rest. To me their plan seemed to be, progress with as little as possible wich gets away as a progress in order to not mess up the set market. And of course combined with dumbing down of the cheaper low end versions of their products. And its perfectly understandable, why would these set players want to change anything? All was working fine. In this situation it HAS to be an outsider wich does the innovation. I believe the Red sensor designers must all be frustrated Ex Canon engineers

Logged
georgl
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 140


« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2009, 12:16:31 PM »
ReplyReply

I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.

It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).

Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.

Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!

Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.

I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language  
Logged
pschefz
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 244


« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2009, 12:22:52 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
The off-the-shelf chips from Dalsa and Kodak can't be read very fast. For all the complaints people make about the MFDB makers, I still say that the lethargic sensor releases from Dalsa and Kodak are the worst offenders. If they made a 10fps chip with usable ISO 3200, the MFDB makers would use the chip - no question. How long did it take them to make a 645 chip?

Red is doing the right thing by designing their own chips. Kodak and Dalsa don't seem very interested in pushing the envelope on their own.


but that is the point...why does a company like RED realize that hey can't depend on off the shelf sensors, while every single DMF company with years of experience simply put their future into the hands of dalsa or.....KODAK!

canon saw early on that the way to do this right was to make their own chips....it meant being a tad behind in the beginning but now they are in charge and they own and control all aspects of their product...


someone mentioned DMF lacking sex....i think that is where the S2 clearly does things right....

the RED or whatever comes after does not have to have the IQ or resolutipn or raw brilliance of the P65......what i have always wanted from digital is a solution that give me MF quality.....a couple of years ago that was DMF backs, now it is DSLR...simple as that....i never needed 8x10....it would be nice to have and i am pretty sure we will get it, but i am happy getting MF at SLR handling....nobody drools over counting eyelashes anymore....mostly because (almost) every camera can produce that already.....

i spend more time adding grain to my files then sharpening them....
Logged

schefz.com
artloch.com
pschefz
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 244


« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2009, 12:27:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: georgl
I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.

It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).

Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.

Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!

Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.

I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language  

are you talking about franke&heidecke?
Logged

schefz.com
artloch.com
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2753


WWW
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2009, 12:29:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: gwhitf
I don't think it's dead, but I do think it's going to settle into its quiet little niches -- either for tethered advertising, or for Amateurs That Think That Big Prints Mean Good Pictures.

Different markets demand different things. Some niches in advertising have very little requirements when it comes to resolution and print-detail. Architecture, interiors, cars, many types of product photography, and others are often very resolution-dependent.

Landscape imagery being sold in galleries is one of those markets. For better or for worse buyers of landscape imagery will often linger over every part of the image; consciously or not they are influenced by the level of detail (often they do know it and even comment on it).

I am very interested to see where RED ends up in all of this. Only time will tell if the projected 6x17 chip and it's smaller-but-still-awesome-sounding kin will come to fruition, and if it does, whether it will perform as advertised. Until then it is just rumor and speculation. This segment of the industry is absolutely riddled with previous examples of "revolutionary" technology which was "months" away from being released that never saw the light of day or fell flat on it's face.

The other question is of course this: by the time RED has a shipping-available-and-bug-free product what will Phase, Hassy, and Leica be shipping. Since Phase has changed policies to only announce products at availability the answer to this question is entirely unclear.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
cmi
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 491


« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2009, 12:29:54 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: georgl
I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.

It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).

Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.

Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!

Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.

I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language  

Im not a pro working with a Red, but you should post THIS in the complaint department over at reduser.net if you want some serious answers. Should be fun to watch. Even from what I have only glanced at over there, I cant take you serious at all. Really. I only wonder whats YOUR motivation to inform me, the enthusiastic photographer. But well, things will happen regardless of what we talk here.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 02:21:51 PM by Christian Miersch » Logged
James R Russell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 984



WWW
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2009, 02:01:50 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Different markets demand different things. Some niches in advertising have very little requirements when it comes to resolution and print-detail. Architecture, interiors, cars, many types of product photography, and others are often very resolution-dependent. ..............................

The other question is of course this: by the time RED has a shipping-available-and-bug-free product what will Phase, Hassy, and Leica be shipping. Since Phase has changed policies to only announce products at availability the answer to this question is entirely unclear.



When I began shooting a combination of stills and motion, most photographers I knew replied that the only reason I'm getting this business is because I offered it.

I kind of shook my head on that one because I guess that holds true for everything every artist or business person does.  The reasons I send web galleries is because I own computers, the reason I shoot digital is because I own cameras,  hell I guess if I could make sculpture or paint I'd be selling that.

Regardless, all of these conversations will go round and round.  Still Medium Format will hold their territory and say the image quality is better, still dslrs will say the same thing and maybe RED is not the solution,  but it's honestly refreshing for some, heck any professional camera company to get close to giving me more than I asked for, not less and maybe RED dreams big, but I dig that because that's our job as artists, image makers, communicators . . . to dream big.

To have success I know I have to offer more than whoever I compete with and in todays world offering more is the only thing that works.  

Doug, actually in the world of image making for commerce we don't just compete with other still photographers we compete for a part of the overall marketing budget, whether that is interactive, print or broadcast and if we don't move forward our industry will become even more marginalized than it is today.  Maybe Phase/Hasselblad has a way to do that.  I don't know, because as you mention there is no information.

I do know this . . . few people would think it's a good idea to stop buying professional tools, because one or two makers decided to not give out any information.

I have to admit I look at medium format still cameras almost with nostalgia and nostalgia is now a 2 year cycle, because even though the camera/backs can produce a superior still image if all the stars align properly, lighting, still subjects, planned singular poses, the world is moving past still subjects in planed singular poses.

I'm kind of amazed that medium format digital continues to give up territory.  They lost the most of the commercial guys to the 1ds, all of the wedding photographers to the dslrs, most of the fashion photographers and I kind of wonder at what point they decide that maybe higher iso, bigger better lcd's, more focus points and even the ability to add fast frame per second imagery would be a good idea?

I know that the traditional camera makers and their followers will scream to high heaven about the disadvantages of RED, you see it on these forums already, because everyone wants to hold onto and protect their territory but that's not how you win a war.  

You take the other guys territory.

Anyway, whoever makes what matters little to me as the camera is just a tool like a brand/type of light source and even that is changing.    

The one single thing I am sure of is I do not plan on holding pat, standing still or even going backwards.  

I know the results of that.

JR

Logged

Graeme Nattress
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 582



WWW
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2009, 02:29:26 PM »
ReplyReply

A few things make me laugh - "nice prosumer-camcorder", for which I respond with http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/thebookofeli/
"no lossless compression" - lossless compression is very easy - you'll get around 2:1 or 2.5:1 on typical visual imagery, and the only difficulty comes in the still massive amount of hard drive space you need to store it all. Technologically, it's simple. Good looking real time lossy compression on 4k data is darn hard. I know that from personal experience.

Your attacking of color filter array sensors is also laughable. Did you not realize that the Arri D21 uses a 3k Bayer Pattern CFA? Or that you're on a photography forum where 99% of the cameras people use are Bayer Pattern CFA sensors? Come on... Get your facts straight before you post! The Panavision Genesis uses a RGB Stripe Color Filter array, a pattern that is just less efficient (but technologically much simpler to implement) than the Bayer pattern.

Interesting you mention Dalsa and their 4K digital cinema camera, which used a Bayer pattern CFA. I guess Bayer patterns are only bad when RED use them, not when Sony use them, or Arri or Dalsa or...

"I won't comment any further on this topic" - great. But it is a well known internet forum tactic to post less than factual posts, then make some reason not to respond to criticism. I will debate with anyone, but I'll stick to facts and reasoning, not FUD. I also prefer to know who I'm writing to. I use my real name on this forum. Michael and Chris have met me and know who I am. I'm sure a number  of posters here have met me at tradeshows over the years.

"Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision." you mentioned them - not me! I am friends with the top digital people at both Arri and Panavision. There is indeed friendly rivalry between us, but also some respect as I don't think either of them thought we could make a working camera to the spec and price - but we did. Of course, my earlier comments in this thread on the difficulties of doing high resolution motion imagery were directed at what both Canon and Nikon have done, and the visible corners they've cut to make video work on their designed for stills sensors. If we'd done such a short-cut we'd have been hauled over the coals for it by our customers. Instead we took the hard engineering route to make it possible.

"I'm not being able to fight outside my native language" - yeah, right - your English is doing just fine to write your posts, but it doesn't work to argue back?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 02:30:10 PM by Graeme Nattress » Logged

www.nattress.com - Plugins for Final Cut Pro and Color
www.red.com - Digital Cinema Cameras
jing q
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 594


WWW
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2009, 02:40:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: georgl
Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!

Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.

I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language  

Sorry do you have facts to back up your assertions?
I come from Singapore and I highly doubt that anyone in electronic and mechanical production get less than $1000 a month.
BTW you may be interested to know that Singapore has quite abit of experience in medium to high technology manufacturing.

and having high wages does not necessarily equate to better quality.
Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 3855



WWW
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2009, 10:54:37 PM »
ReplyReply

In case you hadn't noticed, the US has basically run out of engineers because in the last 10 years anyone native-born with good language skills and a white face who was smart enough to be an engineer could get 10x the money by joining THE industry, Banking. Goldman Sachs made a *profit* of 3.7 Billion dollars this quarter, and paid out quite a few million dollar bonuses.

Of course, the US imports a lot of grad students, who then become slaves for their professors, and H1Bs who can't even change jobs.  I went to a color science conference a couple of years ago. Almost everyone under 28 was asian, and most spoke chinese very well thank you. So I guess cameras and the chips in them are made by people who live in Asia and you should be thanking these guys and gals for supplying your tools rather than insulting them. Because I'm willing to bet that your own genius kids would never take up a low-paid and demeaning job such as schoolteacher in maths or physics, or production engineer or grad student in engineering. And yes, I did earn my PhD, so I have great respect for the smart and hardworking scientists and engineers from Asia who are advancing technology and engineering these days.

Edmund



Quote from: georgl
I think your RED is a fantastic new tool with entirely new possibilities for creative people and cinematographers. But it's not a magic gift, not a revolution from a technical point of view (no lossless compression, color interpolation, no optical viewfinder, no reliable information about the company, production or service) and not the superior successor to professional camera systems like ARRI and Panavision, either.

It's a nice prosumer-camcorder which made the 35mm-look affordable, implemented a convenient workflow (wavelet-compressed RAW - it's 4k data-rate is several times smaller than non-compressed RAW HD!) but it's sensor doesn't deliver a unique performance, instead the high number of photosites is used to market the magic number "4k" (Panavision uses a 12MP-sensor to create a non-interpolated 1080p-signal - engineers made this decision, while marketing-people from Sony wanted "4k" - the real 4k-camera is still in development).

Your marketing is attacking well-know professional companies like ARRI and Panavision. They rely on facts, they don't interpolate colors or use inevitable heavy compression. Their cameras are manufactured by highly skilled employees in the States, Germany or Austria, they use sensors from Sony or Cypress, developed by the Frauenhofer Institute or own subsidiaries. The lenses are made by Elcan, Carl Zeiss, Cooke or Rodenstock. No excessive marketing without facts, no unnecessary secrets, just transparency where needed.

Singapore is an interesting state with a very powerful financial system to seduce foreign investors. But nobody manufactures there without having cost reduction in mind. ARRI only uses employees trained for years in production/technical schools (tool-makers, machinists...) with wages multiple times as high as average wages in Singapore (workers in production get far less then 1000$/month). I know this mindset very well: everything that matters is design, low-wages for workers are necessary to stay competitive... But I think RED could have been a great chance for the USA to reestablish high-quality-craftmenship outside the military-industry, necessary more than ever!

Dalsa and Kodak focus on highest IQ, that's why they still use CCD with a higher fill-rate than CMOS. But they're more expensive to manufacture (because of specialized fabs) don't allow a high degree of integration. Dalsa had a faster CCD for their cine-style camera Origin but had to compromise IQ for speed.

I won't comment any further on this topic, just wanted to give enthusiastic photographers over here a slightly different perspective. I'm sure you already have well-thought counter-arguments I'm not being able to fight outside my native language  
Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1834


« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2009, 01:12:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: eronald
In case you hadn't noticed, the US has basically run out of engineers because in the last 10 years anyone native-born with good language skills and a white face who was smart enough to be an engineer could get 10x the money by joining THE industry, Banking. Goldman Sachs made a *profit* of 3.7 Billion dollars this quarter, and paid out quite a few million dollar bonuses.

Of course, the US imports a lot of grad students, who then become slaves for their professors, and H1Bs who can't even change jobs.  I went to a color science conference a couple of years ago. Almost everyone under 28 was asian, and most spoke chinese very well thank you. So I guess cameras and the chips in them are made by people who live in Asia and you should be thanking these guys and gals for supplying your tools rather than insulting them. Because I'm willing to bet that your own genius kids would never take up a low-paid and demeaning job such as schoolteacher in maths or physics, or production engineer or grad student in engineering. And yes, I did earn my PhD, so I have great respect for the smart and hardworking scientists and engineers from Asia who are advancing technology and engineering these days.

Edmund

There are plenty of gifted American engineers, mechanical and electrical.  They make things that kill people, and the software/guidance systems to get the job done.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8...mp;feature=fvwp
Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 3855



WWW
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2009, 02:05:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Actually this thing is a few years behind the best Japanese legged robots, and it's based on a breakthrough for legged locomotion invented in Japan called and ZMP. The reference design here is the Honda robot, Asimo.


http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/


Edmund


Quote from: TMARK
There are plenty of gifted American engineers, mechanical and electrical.  They make things that kill people, and the software/guidance systems to get the job done.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gi6Ohnp9x8...mp;feature=fvwp
Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1834


« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2009, 05:57:46 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: eronald
Actually this thing is a few years behind the best Japanese legged robots, and it's based on a breakthrough for legged locomotion invented in Japan called and ZMP. The reference design here is the Honda robot, Asimo.


http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/


Edmund

The locomotion isn't what's new, its the guidance and its stability controls.  The locomotion is actually besides the point.  The chassis is actually 5 years old and was designed to mimic the designer's Rotweiler.  


Logged
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad