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Author Topic: The Divide  (Read 3225 times)
Michael West
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« on: July 21, 2009, 12:58:25 PM »
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RSL
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 01:20:30 PM »
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Michael, Wonderful light. When they start telling you how to "fix" this picture by cropping, plug your ears.
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cmi
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 01:52:23 PM »
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I would like it even more with the whole lower 50% (maybe a bit less), cut off. That was my immediate, spontaneous first thougt as I saw it, before Russ posted. I have for myself some images where I realized later that I better had turned the camera and zoomed in. This image reminds me of these situations.

But apart from this, I like the sight, the light and the processing very much! This is a beautiful image.

Christian
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kikashi
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 01:54:49 PM »
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Quote from: RSL
Michael, Wonderful light. When they start telling you how to "fix" this picture by cropping, plug your ears.
I'm entirely with Russ on this one. Lose the gold, lose the image. It's beautiful.

Jeremy
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Michael West
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 03:21:03 PM »
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Thank you.
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EdRosch
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 03:34:20 PM »
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I like the way that the path zig-zagging in the grass is picked up by the valley zig-zagging into the distance unifying the composition.  Nice eye!

Ed
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button
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 03:35:57 PM »
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Aside from the gorgeous colors, I find myself spending most of my time on the more subtle horizontal lines in the gold field- a complex, lingering aftertaste that follows the gluttonous consumption of the saturation (I mean that in good way- in this case, more really is more!)

John
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John R
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 05:28:07 PM »
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Wonderful image. The gold light beckons as does the line to the tree. At first I wanted to crop your image, mostly because it did not fit on my screen! As I always say most images can be cropped, not because of any fault, but because of taste.

JMR
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 08:08:22 PM by John R » Logged
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 07:36:37 PM »
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Quote from: RSL
Michael, Wonderful light. When they start telling you how to "fix" this picture by cropping, plug your ears.

Russ is right - leave it alone!
Congratulations,
Bill
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wolfnowl
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 01:26:15 AM »
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Love the gold and the path leading to the tree.  The sky is rather anticlimactic after that introduction, but I won't say to remove it (in deference to Russ...   )

Mike.
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If your mind is attuned to beauty, you find beauty in everything.
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cmi
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 03:37:22 AM »
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Quote from: billcb
Russ is right - leave it alone!
Congratulations,
Bill

Now im really interested in why cropping forbids itself here so much that it comes down to a right/wrong decision. Im a bit puzzled. Maybe if you Bill, or Russ, or anyone could explain?

Thanks

Christian

//edit: To make it short, I will just state my opinion instead of waiting for a reply to my rethorical question:

I just dont like it when I read such statements, "plug your ears when someone says that or that". Its just counterprdoductive. If it would have been: "I absolutely like it, dont change it!!!" (ideally with an EXPLANATION along) but most important, without that addition: "dont listen to the others!" It would have been fine for me. Its specifically that addition wich disturbs me. Suddendly it is no longer about different views but a struggle about the "right" way, soon people start with insults, and all the fun is gone. Sure, nobody wanted that, but oh! so mysterically it went down this road, and everybody is puzzled, and dont have the SLIGHTEST idea where it came from. Forgive my irony. I've seen this often enough.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 08:30:01 AM by Christian Miersch » Logged
RSL
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 10:18:18 AM »
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Quote from: Christian Miersch
Now im really interested in why cropping forbids itself here so much that it comes down to a right/wrong decision. Im a bit puzzled. Maybe if you Bill, or Russ, or anyone could explain?

Thanks

Christian

//edit: To make it short, I will just state my opinion instead of waiting for a reply to my rethorical question:

I just dont like it when I read such statements, "plug your ears when someone says that or that". Its just counterprdoductive. If it would have been: "I absolutely like it, dont change it!!!" (ideally with an EXPLANATION along) but most important, without that addition: "dont listen to the others!" It would have been fine for me. Its specifically that addition wich disturbs me. Suddendly it is no longer about different views but a struggle about the "right" way, soon people start with insults, and all the fun is gone. Sure, nobody wanted that, but oh! so mysterically it went down this road, and everybody is puzzled, and dont have the SLIGHTEST idea where it came from. Forgive my irony. I've seen this often enough.

Christian, Sorry to hear I offended you. I said what I said because on this forum nearly everyone seems to feel that a photograph isn't finished until it's been cropped and Photoshopped way beyond its original condition. I'll say again what I said before: The difference between an artist and a talented dilettante is that the artist knows when to stop. Also, as I've said many times: If you're an experienced photographer it's very likely that your first impression of a scene and, therefore, your first exposure, is the right one. Which is not to say you shouldn't continue shooting until you're absolutely sure you have what you want, but it is to say that when you get home and start looking at what you've shot you'll very, very often find that your first frame was the best.

So, I suggested to Michael that he ignore the posts that were sure to suggest he "improve" this very excellent photograph by cropping and making changes with Photoshop. I knew they'd be coming because they always do, and yours was the first. You wanted to chop off the bottom three quarters of the stunningly lighted foliage, which also would have eliminated an important part of the winding path, which is key to the geometry of the composition. I like a lot of your photography, Christian, and, frankly, though it's certainly legitimate for you to make such a suggestion, I can't understand why you'd want to do something that destructive to this beautifully finished work.

Yes, I could have said something formal, like: "don't change it, I like it," but "plug your ears" is a colloquialism that makes the point in a less stuffy way. If anyone else was offended by that colloquialism, please let me know and I'll try to be more formal in the future.

As far as not having the slightest idea where the insults come from, let me try to give you at least a slight idea. If you check back on the threads that have degenerated into shouting matches I think you'll find that they start when one person posts some clearly incorrect information, someone else jumps in with a correction, and the first poster then comes back with an insult for the person who posted the correction and usually calls him a liar or an incompetent. The interesting thing about this is that in most cases the correct information is readily available either in books or on the web. The original poster could have checked before he posted his disinformation, and he also could have verified the second poster's correction once he posted it. But someone who posts disinformation and then responds angrily when his post is corrected usually doesn't have both oars in the water to begin with.  (another colloquialism) If you watch, I think you'll see that most of that problem has been solved -- at least for now -- by Chris's recent action.
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Rob C
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 11:04:39 AM »
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Where slanging matches develop it is often at the first aggressive note coming from someone who hasnŽt really read or understood the post that triggers his violent reaction; there are many second-stage warriors here who leap in at about round seven and then battle to the death ignorant of either the "foe" or his point. These, in turn, attract followers in droves. (Have you noticed how willing many people are to follow?) Been there and had it done to me and watched it happen to others.

But anyway, breaking my own omerta, if comment is acceptable, then IŽd say that I am uncomfortable wth the top of the "path" that leads through the field and up to the tree: it is too definedly dark to look real, IMO, though it might well be real. The other thing IŽd play with is the sky: perhaps IŽd make it heavier? Having done that, I might return to step one!

But a nice image in either case.

Rob C
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 11:05:26 AM by Rob C » Logged

shutterpup
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 11:37:06 AM »
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Here's my .02. I think that the sky and the foreground balance each other beautifully; just enough of each at just the right hue. Someone spoke of the path leading to the tree being too dark; I looked again and the path running horizontally at the top of the photo is the same amount of darkness. I have no trouble with it. I really like this picture just the way it is.
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cmi
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 01:23:25 PM »
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Quote from: Christian Miersch
...and everybody is puzzled, and dont have the SLIGHTEST idea...

Russ,

"has", not "have". I mistyped. I was objecting to these "everybodys", not to me in the last part of the sentence. Maybe re-read me with that in mind.

Regarding the image lets just say, I find the foreground is not THAT strong, its possible to miss the composition. At least I missed it in the first place, it was not obvious, I realized it only later. Not do put it down, I do think its beautiful, while a bit over-prcessed, esp. the blacks wich are a tad too deep for my taste.
My suggestion also was also a bit sloppy formulated (by the way I didnt suggest to cut 3 quarters of the bottom). Lets just say I see a potentially totally different crop in landscape orientation wich also includes parts wich are not in this shot.

But this is all irrelevant to the argument I want to make: For me its about openly expressing the idea I get when I see something, and I cant help, I just feel hindered in this when I read comments like the one you wrote. You probably wonder about that, so let me explain that further, starting indirectly with this image, but also critique in general:

I dont find it acceptable to rule out cropping (or whatever other alteration) only with the argument that the image is somehow complete. Who determines that? Even if we talked about a Rembrandt we could still point at parts of images and say: Hey, that could stand alone on itself too. I mean thats obvious.

Concerning this image specifically here: purely on the words of your first answer, I agree 100%! I also dont see how it can be improved "just by cropping". But my, or anyones agreement means nothing, is irrelevant, since anyone could come up with a way to make it better. Who knows? How can I, or you, or anyone know?  Or maybe someone makes a very slight alteration of the crop here wich doesnt change the composition but makes a subtle difference?

So from this, I conclude it is always legitimate to make different suggestions, also regarding crops, for a finished, complete image, for any image. Denying this just rules out something in my eyes.  And thats what I dont like about your comment. You see, after reading this first comment I feel I am in position where I need to defend why I make suggestions or get ridiculed. (Not specifically by you, but by the general opionion) But of course thats my thing, a suggestion always stays a suggestion no matter what.

However, having said all this, I must add, I see why you say what you say, what you want to achieve. You just want to avoid these unproductive discussions wich arise quite often. OI say, the more beginners, the more bad advice, no one can change this. Its determined by the kind of people who visit the site. A comparisation: Compared with german dslr-forum where I come from LL is a heavens place. The short time here was more useful to me than the 2 years there. Principal problems being basically the same, but more competent people here, also the average age is higher, to name just two reasons. So this makes a difference, but it is nothing we may influence. Thats my opinion.

So to end this (got much longer than I wanted it to be!) I will repeat what I said in my last post. "warning" others by stating the OWN OPINION, e.g. "dont crop it, it ruins the image!" (and ideally with a because of...) is totally ok for me, is the basis for everything. But extending this argument to "dont listen to the others!" is, for the reasons I outlined, not acceptable, well at least not a solution for me.

With the right words you can say everything, with the wrong words, nothing.

Christian
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:34:00 PM by Christian Miersch » Logged
cmi
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 02:17:49 PM »
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Thats all too lenghty and convoluted, what I really want to say Russ,

comments like your first one here are leading to problems, despite the undoubtedly best intentions behind them. (Would be silly to assume anyone has bad intentions btw.)

I cannot or do I want prove it to you, and I dont expect anyone to agree an me, but it is my honest opinion. I just say it. I could even understand if you where seriously pissed off by it.

And I reacted in the first place because I certainly also sometimes give misleading advice.


All the best


Christian
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 02:28:51 PM by Christian Miersch » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 02:34:37 PM »
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The way I see it, the problem with forum based discussion such as this lies in the chronologically sequential nature of posted opinion.  The first response in a thread can't help but set the tone for all following posts, especially if if that response comes from someone whose opinion carries weight.  People (myself included) generally find conforming to what's already established easy, because (like Christian implied) no one wants to say something that might seem stupid or gauche.  

I think ideally, one should look at the image and then formulate his or her opinion before reading the other replies.  That's hard to do, because I think we all want to know what everyone else is thinking.

John

Edit reason: spelling
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 03:33:19 PM by button » Logged
shutterpup
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 03:04:17 PM »
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Quote from: button
I think ideally, one should look at the image and then formulate his or her opinion before reading the others replies.  That's hard to do, becuase I think we all want to know what everyone else is thinking.

John

John,
I participate in another forum and I do that very thing often over there. I read the original post and respond. I may or may not read what everyone else says. It's a forum where people are seeking support and I don't have to know what anyone said.

Here, I don't feel I have enough experience yet to post a good critique, so I look to see what others are saying. Then I may or may not post.
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RSL
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 03:22:17 PM »
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Quote from: Christian Miersch
Thats all too lenghty and convoluted, what I really want to say Russ,

comments like your first one here are leading to problems, despite the undoubtedly best intentions behind them. (Would be silly to assume anyone has bad intentions btw.)

I cannot or do I want prove it to you, and I dont expect anyone to agree an me, but it is my honest opinion. I just say it. I could even understand if you where seriously pissed off by it.

And I reacted in the first place because I certainly also sometimes give misleading advice.


All the best


Christian

Christian, Don't sweat it. I don't get angry because people state opinions. What bugs me is misinformation, intentional or offered out of ignorance, but then, only when the person who offered it is unwilling to take the trouble to learn the truth. I don't ask the person offering misinformation to accept my version of the truth. I'll normally give a reference to a source where the person can find reliable data. But opinions are just that: opinions. I think I agree with John, though, that you need to take a careful look at a picture before you read what others have to say about it.
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cmi
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 04:15:39 PM »
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I dont sweat it this time Russ, I said it because *I* would likely be a bit pissed of if someone tells me such a thing
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