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Author Topic: Leica S2 Pricing  (Read 56677 times)
rainer_v
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 03:31:25 AM »
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at first i`d like to see if it works ok. will be hard to get info which leads further than these who will praise their leica results in the heaven...
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rainer viertlböck
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simplify
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 03:36:32 AM »
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$400 BATTERY CHARGER!
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Imaginara
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2009, 03:42:06 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
I really don't understand,
what happened to all the
"It will be priced very competitively???"

I think the competition read that aswell
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georgl
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2009, 04:12:20 AM »
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The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$

It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.

I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!

The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 05:27:06 AM by georgl » Logged
geesbert
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2009, 04:40:56 AM »
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isn't the list price for the canon 1ds charger also 400? canon probably sells 1000x more than Leica ever will.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2009, 05:00:23 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavantge in practice in over 90% of the situations.

Agreed... and the same way the S2 will not provide a useful resolution advantage over a D3x in 90% of the time... whose lenses are pretty darm excellent as well 2 stops down from full opening.  Not to mention DR that is likely to be better on the D3x.

Anyway, the lack of live view on the S2 makes it a non entrant in the first place.

Cheers,
Bernard
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KevinA
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2009, 05:17:54 AM »
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Quote from: Imaginara
I think the competition read that aswell

Like me you assumed competitively priced with other camera systems, obviously they meant a house.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
georgl
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2009, 05:30:40 AM »
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I hope Leica finally realizes to post some high-end-images to demonstrate the capabilities of this system. What I saw at Photokina (handheld) had nothing to do with 20+Mp-DSLRs and their lenses...
I miss live view, too. Not so much in the S2 (which is too big and expensive for a M-shooter like me anyway) but as a "technology statement" for the future M9 which would really profit from live view.
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antonyoung
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2009, 05:39:07 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$

It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.

I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!

The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.

Those kits include a lens, so the Leica is $5000 more expensive kit-to-kit. You say you're ok with the price of the charger and you seem to think the price is competitive, so again I'll ask, are you actually going to put your money where your mouth is and buy one? Do you know anybody who will?
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AlDoori
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2009, 05:43:07 AM »
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Quote from: simplify
$400 BATTERY CHARGER!
a charger comes with the S2 it seems, according to the list.
399.-  is for a spare/extra charger

Quote
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399
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Gigi
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« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2009, 06:34:51 AM »
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Well, can't say its unexpected. Falls right in line.

- Leica prices have always been high, and the recent trend in the M8 has been upwards also.
- regardless of what they say about "competitive pricing" - Leica's notion of this is very modest. Not quite "head in sand" but close to it.  
- Euro:$ isn't helping.
- Their pricing is similar to Rollei prices, comparable high quality, German product, with their Schneider lenses. High quality, high prices.
- having a few v. expensive small items (charger, etc.) at high prices certainly doesn't endear them.
- sad, but similar to the M8 - their distribution network is expensive too.

Leica has never been interested in discount pricing a body to get a new model out the door. They have always fully priced their development costs into their new products, making their "loyal" customers pay for the privilege of using their product. Its a bit goofy in todays markets, but maybe for small volume, high quality, it works for them?

Their only recent product that doesn't suffer from this are the new Summarit lenses. But they benefited from rational design and shared production to lessen expenses, not from an aggressive marketing strategy. Still, they are priced reasonably. But it seems that Leica makes each item pay directly for its manufacturing costs and engineering time - no "shifted pricing" to get the body on the street.

It is hard to look at these prices and not choke. Especially today. The only hope for us in the US is that maybe list and street prices aren't the same... a wee hope, to be sure.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 06:39:38 AM by Geoffreyg » Logged

Geoff
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« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2009, 06:51:17 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$

It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.

I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!

The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.


P40+ kit is 21,500 with lens. No matter how you slice the cheese the S2 starts at 6k over and above the H3/39 and P40+ with the cheapest 70mm lens no less
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pete_truman
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« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2009, 07:07:37 AM »
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Cough. Just cleaning the computer screen of my lunch after seeing those prices!

Just wait for the price of a special limited edition S2 with green finish.
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Pete Truman
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« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2009, 07:39:58 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture.
If so, not for long. Kodak already has micro-lenses on the previous generation 44x33mm 31MP sensor in the HDII-31, and so are likely to put them on a next generation 44x33mm 6 micron cell sensor (40MP). Dalsa also has microlenses on its new 48x36mm 48MP sensor, due to a new design that eliminates the off-perpendicular sensitivity problems of microlenses: see http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf
So microlenses are likely on all Dalsa MF sensors from now on.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2009, 08:00:13 AM »
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Quote from: georgl
I hope Leica finally realizes to post some high-end-images to demonstrate the capabilities of this system. What I saw at Photokina (handheld) had nothing to do with 20+Mp-DSLRs and their lenses...

One would think that Leica would hire a Human Behavior Expert, in order to understand that, yes, you come out with a very detailed document, or set of downloadable files, that clearly show the difference in their new camera, versus that of Phase or even Canon, *before* they announce pricing on the new camera.

The Human needs more proof than a red dot logo in order to write a check for $50-60,000 US.

Yet now, the whole experience is colored by that nagging little detail called Real World Pricing, and for a product that is Version 1.0, and still unproven in the field, and without Live View.

I'm sure on some level, it's a great camera, but they simply missed the boat. Maybe if they throw in a set of $400 Leather Driving Gloves with every body, they'll sell enough to the Target Audience to limp along and not go belly-up.

I'd say, with this announcement, the value of my P45+ is now more secure than ever.

Still, best of luck to The Church of Leica, and their worshipers.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 08:46:18 AM by gwhitf » Logged
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 08:11:00 AM »
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Isn't the total world market for MF digital something miniscule like 10,000 units a year? And I seem to remember Leica stating that their aspiration for the S2 was a 10% market share. If so they're aiming for annual sales of just one thousand units (body plus lens packages).

They wouldn't even need to gain any support from the professional market to achieve that, even in today's straightened economy there's easily a thousand well-heeled hobby photographers in the world.
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hcubell
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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 08:57:01 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Those kits include a lens, so the Leica is $5000 more expensive kit-to-kit. You say you're ok with the price of the charger and you seem to think the price is competitive, so again I'll ask, are you actually going to put your money where your mouth is and buy one? Do you know anybody who will?

Before responding to that question one way or the other, don't you think it would make sense to actually use the camera on an actual shoot(or two or three) and see first hand how it handles,  what the files look like, and how the post-workflow functions?
As for the pricing, it's high, and I am sure higher than Leica would like, but I am also sure that is a function of the very sizeable development costs that Leica has incurred. Millions and millions of dollars for the body and lenses. The number I have heard is $20-30M. In any business you have to price a new product in substantial part in a way that permits you to recover your development costs. By comparison, what do you think Phase One has invested in the P65+/P40+, Mamiya AFD and its lenses over the past 2 years? Phase and Hasselblad have built-in advantages in pricing, and as a result Leica will likely fail unless the S2 has demonstrable advantages over the Phamiya and the H3D.

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gwhitf
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« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 09:23:35 AM »
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I just ran the basic math for a pro photographer, and this is my package, in order to responsibly walk into a basic job:

Two of the cheapo version bodies; basic warranty; no handgrip; three cheapo version lenses: $65,300.00.

("But oh wait, I could LEASE them, right? So that makes them free, right? Wonder what's the Monthly Lease Payment on $65,300.00...? I'm sure someone here could tell us.")

And they promise the camera in September, but then the truth comes out, that other necessary items are not til January 2010? (Did anybody read "The Boy That Cried Wolf"..?)
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »
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amen !
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Mark_Tuttle
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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2009, 09:50:52 AM »
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Prices out of "dentist" range, and surely high enough to make anyone except a Citi derivatives trader blink.  Bernie Madoff probably had two on a waiting list, so if anyone wants to step up ....
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Mark Tuttle
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